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F Chris Kreider (2009, 19th overall, NY Rangers) II -"What's the big deal," you ask?

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Old
12-30-2012, 04:34 PM
  #301
Xokkeu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well McKeens had him 6th among skaters so the list is vast.

Can't recall where HF had him.

Corey Pronman who does great work over at Hockey Prospectus had him at 33 which seemed more reasonable preseason and now

http://www.puckprospectus.com/articl...articleid=1381
Seems like a fine list on HF. Certainly some players I would drop below Kreider with no hesitation.

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It's tough to compare him to defenseman because they are so valuable but so hard to project. The thing about Kreider is you know he's going to be an NHLer, it's just the upside is limited. I think Nyquist, Namenstnikov and Jankrok are more skilled, but there's no guarantee they can adjust to the NHL so then you're left with a net loss.

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12-30-2012, 04:36 PM
  #302
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I don't think you can boast about homegrown players and amazing ability to develop players if you just pick them at the draft, they spend years in for example Sweden and join your team straight out of lower leagues.

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12-30-2012, 04:42 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Seems like a fine list on HF. Certainly some players I would drop below Kreider with no hesitation.

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It's tough to compare him to defenseman because they are so valuable but so hard to project. The thing about Kreider is you know he's going to be an NHLer, it's just the upside is limited. I think Nyquist, Namenstnikov and Jankrok are more skilled, but there's no guarantee they can adjust to the NHL so then you're left with a net loss.
Looking at play in the AHL I would bet that Nyquist has a greater chance of playing more NHL games than Kreider.

Part of Kreider's "sure bet" is his speed and size, surely results have to matter as well at some point?

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12-30-2012, 04:45 PM
  #304
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Kreider's production has been lacluster in every stage of his career. Besides his size, there isn't much there in terms of skill.

Probably will be a 3rd liner or top out as a ryan clowe type of player, Which isnt bad, but his skills don't garner the superstar hype he gets.

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12-30-2012, 04:47 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
Not diminishing anything. Im simply not overrating the guy based mostly on an 18 game sample size, that he wasnt even that great in anyways.

Im looking at his production level, and what historically that level of production usually translates into at higher levels. Im basing my arguments and points on facts, not wishful thinking.

Look, Im not saying Kreider sucks or anything like that. his size and skating ability will keep him in the NHL. I just dont see the offensive upside that some others do. And of course on HF, god forbid anyone ever say anything negative about one of your prospects.
So what do you see his offensive production to be? I think he'll be a 50-60 point, two way player who comes up big in clutch moments, ie: a Chris Drury type.

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12-30-2012, 05:02 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Looking at play in the AHL I would bet that Nyquist has a greater chance of playing more NHL games than Kreider.

Part of Kreider's "sure bet" is his speed and size, surely results have to matter as well at some point?
Speed and size alone can make a player a long career in the NHL.

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12-30-2012, 05:07 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Seems like a fine list on HF. Certainly some players I would drop below Kreider with no hesitation.

Kabanov
Galiev


It's tough to compare him to defenseman because they are so valuable but so hard to project. The thing about Kreider is you know he's going to be an NHLer, it's just the upside is limited. I think Nyquist, Namenstnikov and Jankrok are more skilled, but there's no guarantee they can adjust to the NHL so then you're left with a net loss.
Nyquist made a good case for himself during his call-up last year. I think he's pretty much a lock at this point.

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12-30-2012, 05:08 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by AD1066 View Post
Nyquist made a good case for himself during his call-up last year. I think he's pretty much a lock at this point.
Nyquist is pretty good I won't disagree. I'd probably trade Kreider for him, but that wasn't my overall point.

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12-30-2012, 05:13 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
So what do you see his offensive production to be? I think he'll be a 50-60 point, two way player who comes up big in clutch moments, ie: a Chris Drury type.

Chris Drury was a very good player, I doubt Kreider ever has that much value, at least not based on his production so far.


Huge difference between a 50 and a 60 point player in the NHL today.

He also hasn't shown the 2 way skills needed yet.

He could turn into another Steve Bernier at this point.

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12-30-2012, 05:16 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Speed and size alone can make a player a long career in the NHL.
This is true but just being a player would be a disappointment if you seriously thought he was ever close to a top 10 prospect as well.

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12-30-2012, 05:20 PM
  #311
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"Chris Kreider is gonna be awesome 'cause he scored some goals in the playoffs!" Yeah, that about sums it up.

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12-30-2012, 05:25 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
So what do you see his offensive production to be? I think he'll be a 50-60 point, two way player who comes up big in clutch moments, ie: a Chris Drury type.
I think you are looking more at a Viktor Stalberg type from last season. Mostly low 40's points, maybe a fluke 50 point season thrown in once or twice.

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12-30-2012, 05:27 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
"Chris Kreider is gonna be awesome 'cause he scored some goals in the playoffs!" Yeah, that about sums it up.
Their was tons of hype about him before he suited up for the Rangers. To me his AHL season tells me that he isn't the kind of guy that will create his own offense and his offense will be the product of the system he is in.

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12-30-2012, 07:13 PM
  #314
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How many power forwards are finished products at 21?

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12-30-2012, 08:43 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
This is true but just being a player would be a disappointment if you seriously thought he was ever close to a top 10 prospect as well.
A lot of top 10 prospects never make the NHL. Some become elite players, but if you are locked in to a support role as a 2nd line winger at 30-40 points that's still a good player to have. Especially as a late first round pick.

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12-30-2012, 10:03 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
but if you are locked in to a support role as a 2nd line winger at 30-40 points that's still a good player to have. Especially as a late first round pick.
Sure, thats a nice player to have. its not however anything resembling a top 20 prospect.

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12-30-2012, 10:04 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
A lot of top 10 prospects never make the NHL. Some become elite players, but if you are locked in to a support role as a 2nd line winger at 30-40 points that's still a good player to have. Especially as a late first round pick.
Historically you are right but in the more recent drafts more of the picks are making the league and having a significant impact as well.

Not including foreign players, who have a legitimate alternative to play in, it looks like around 85% of all 1st round position players have or will play over 100 NHL games since the 01 draft.

For what it is worth 9 players, picked after him in the 1st round in 08, so far have played in the NHL with every player picked ahead of him playing in the NHL as well.

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12-30-2012, 10:12 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
How many power forwards are finished products at 21?
Twelve.

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12-30-2012, 10:29 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
How many power forwards are finished products at 21?

I don't know but it's probably pretty close to the number of power forwards prospects that fail to live up to their hype is my guess.

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12-30-2012, 11:32 PM
  #320
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Basically, this thread is just another opportunity for people who have gotten tired of hearing about Kreider to bash him some more that was taken from the Ranger board to the prospects board.

It's the same culprits, (Juxtaposer, Chaos, Exit Dose, Mayor Bee and the slur of other Columbus fans who had to have him in the Nash trade but are now sitting here bashing him left and right calling him out to be crap just like they did back then when the argument fit the bill of convenience to do so) and a couple of other randoms who dislike the Rangers for whatever reason. Fine, you want the "us against the world" stance? You've got it.

This thread is about his potential and why he's rated as a top 10-15 prospect in the various lists that are out there, yet it's ok just to ignore his NHL production and then when these people can't ignore it, they just dismiss it, but his AHL production is the "be-all, end-all" focal point of discussion?

I'm not here to make excuses for Kreider, but I've seen him live 3 times this season (went there with the sole focus of watching him and him only) and watched online various other times. The guy is stuck playing with crap (Segal, a goon and Jean, a 50-man filler) and looks disinterested. Is that a good thing? No, but the overall level of talent in Connectict is crap. Newbury is our leading scorer and Gilroy was brought back to help... enough said there.

And the Devil fan saying Torts had no faith in him? Please, stick to watching the Redshirts in Newark play. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. The guy was out there in critical defensive situations against Ottawa and Washington in the dying minutes of both elimination games. That's just garbage.

We'll also just ignore his play at the WJC's and the World Championships. That's cool too.

There are two things that are blatantly clear here, like them or not.

1. Kreider's numbers as a whole are not the numbers that you would want to see from him.

2. He plays better against higher levels of competition. He was put against the best in the junior class and was a key part of USA's gold medal run in 2010. He was one of the top Ranger forwards in the playoffs this season.

GWOW, good job dude. The arguments against him are stat-driven drone arguments from the same randoms I see on the trade boards who have never actually watched a player play over a large sample size, but bash him and throw their "expert opinions" out there like they have.

It's a joke. It gets tiring having people who don't watch your teams players as much as you do come on here and act like they do. Maybe they can all come over and watch the Rangers and post on our boards during our games and tell us how the players are performing, since they watch them just as much as we do, if not more.

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12-30-2012, 11:47 PM
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Basically, this thread is just another opportunity for people who have gotten tired of hearing about Kreider to bash him some more that was taken from the Ranger board to the prospects board.
Sorry, sometimes the truth hurts.

Quote:
It's the same culprits, (Juxtaposer, Chaos, Exit Dose, Mayor Bee and the slur of other Columbus fans who had to have him in the Nash trade but are now sitting here bashing him left and right calling him out to be crap just like they did back then when the argument fit the bill of convenience to do so) and a couple of other randoms who dislike the Rangers for whatever reason. Fine, you want the "us against the world" stance? You've got it.
So you seem to think you know me well enough, what exactly do I have against the Rangers? They arent a rival of my team, and they arent even in the same conference. And I've yet to say Kreider is crap or anything like it. his history simply shows that its extremely likely his offensive upside isnt nearly as high as alot of people seem to want it to be.

Quote:
This thread is about his potential and why he's rated as a top 10-15 prospect in the various lists that are out there, yet it's ok just to ignore his NHL production and then when these people can't ignore it, they just dismiss it, but his AHL production is the "be-all, end-all" focal point of discussion?
Im not ignoring anything. I'm valuing his long history in college of mediocre production(0.81 PPG over 114 games) over an 18 game sample size in the playoffs. Where he still only produced at a 32 point pace. He was OK in the playoffs. Thats it.

Quote:
I'm not here to make excuses for Kreider, but I've seen him live 3 times this season (went there with the sole focus of watching him and him only) and watched online various other times. The guy is stuck playing with crap (Segal, a goon and Jean, a 50-man filler) and looks disinterested. Is that a good thing? No, but the overall level of talent in Connectict is crap. Newbury is our leading scorer and Gilroy was brought back to help... enough said there.
These excuses might have a little validity if Kreider wasnt 11th in team scoring.

Quote:
We'll also just ignore his play at the WJC's and the World Championships. That's cool too.
Again, not ignoring anything. Just not overvaluing small sample sizes.


Quote:
GWOW, good job dude. The arguments against him are stat-driven drone arguments from the same randoms I see on the trade boards who have never actually watched a player play over a large sample size, but bash him and throw their "expert opinions" out there like they have.
My arguments are history and odds driven. History is clearly on my side. Doesnt mean its a guarantee, but the odds are on the side of Kreiders history of lack of production meaning he turns into a 2nd/3rd line tweener. You cant count on him(or any other player for that matter) being the exception and not the rule.

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12-30-2012, 11:47 PM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Basically, this thread is just another opportunity for people who have gotten tired of hearing about Kreider to bash him some more that was taken from the Ranger board to the prospects board.

It's the same culprits, (Juxtaposer, Chaos, Exit Dose, Mayor Bee and the slur of other Columbus fans who had to have him in the Nash trade but are now sitting here bashing him left and right calling him out to be crap just like they did back then when the argument fit the bill of convenience to do so) and a couple of other randoms who dislike the Rangers for whatever reason. Fine, you want the "us against the world" stance? You've got it.

This thread is about his potential and why he's rated as a top 10-15 prospect in the various lists that are out there, yet it's ok just to ignore his NHL production and then when these people can't ignore it, they just dismiss it, but his AHL production is the "be-all, end-all" focal point of discussion?

I'm not here to make excuses for Kreider, but I've seen him live 3 times this season (went there with the sole focus of watching him and him only) and watched online various other times. The guy is stuck playing with crap (Segal, a goon and Jean, a 50-man filler) and looks disinterested. Is that a good thing? No, but the overall level of talent in Connectict is crap. Newbury is our leading scorer and Gilroy was brought back to help... enough said there.

And the Devil fan saying Torts had no faith in him? Please, stick to watching the Redshirts in Newark play. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. The guy was out there in critical defensive situations against Ottawa and Washington in the dying minutes of both elimination games. That's just garbage.

We'll also just ignore his play at the WJC's and the World Championships. That's cool too.

There are two things that are blatantly clear here, like them or not.

1. Kreider's numbers as a whole are not the numbers that you would want to see from him.

2. He plays better against higher levels of competition. He was put against the best in the junior class and was a key part of USA's gold medal run in 2010. He was one of the top Ranger forwards in the playoffs this season.

GWOW, good job dude. The arguments against him are stat-driven drone arguments from the same randoms I see on the trade boards who have never actually watched a player play over a large sample size, but bash him and throw their "expert opinions" out there like they have.

It's a joke. It gets tiring having people who don't watch your teams players as much as you do come on here and act like they do. Maybe they can all come over and watch the Rangers and post on our boards during our games and tell us how the players are performing, since they watch them just as much as we do, if not more.
I'm sorry, but you make no sense. If Torts trusted him, he'd have played more than 13 minutes a night. Compare him with Adam Henrique who played 17:30 a game (no, he wasn't playing with Kovy and Parise).

If Torts trusted him, he wouldn't have rode the pine for 10 minute increments

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12-30-2012, 11:47 PM
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Basically, this thread is just another opportunity for people who have gotten tired of hearing about Kreider to bash him some more that was taken from the Ranger board to the prospects board.

It's the same culprits, (Juxtaposer, Chaos, Exit Dose, Mayor Bee and the slur of other Columbus fans who had to have him in the Nash trade but are now sitting here bashing him left and right calling him out to be crap just like they did back then when the argument fit the bill of convenience to do so) and a couple of other randoms who dislike the Rangers for whatever reason. Fine, you want the "us against the world" stance? You've got it.
Here's my comments from several months ago:
"If all goes well, Kreider might accomplish in the NHL what Nash already has and will continue to do. Then again, I've watched a lot of hockey and seen several young players erupt out of nowhere in the playoffs and then never come close to replicating that success again."

"Kreider looks good now. We'll see if he sustains it." (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=192)

"Kreider holds the NHL record for most playoff goals scored by a player before making his regular season debut. Before you get too excited, know that the next three guys on that list are Eddie Mazur, Ray Cote, and George McPhee. The combined NHL totals for those three is 237 games, 32 goals, and 45 assists (77 points). Cote never appeared in another playoff game, and the combined totals for McPhee and Mazur in the postseason after their records was 33 games, 2 goals, and 3 assists (5 points)."
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=431

Please though, tell me more about what I thought and said.

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12-31-2012, 12:12 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Here's my comments from several months ago:
"If all goes well, Kreider might accomplish in the NHL what Nash already has and will continue to do. Then again, I've watched a lot of hockey and seen several young players erupt out of nowhere in the playoffs and then never come close to replicating that success again."

"Kreider looks good now. We'll see if he sustains it." (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=192)

"Kreider holds the NHL record for most playoff goals scored by a player before making his regular season debut. Before you get too excited, know that the next three guys on that list are Eddie Mazur, Ray Cote, and George McPhee. The combined NHL totals for those three is 237 games, 32 goals, and 45 assists (77 points). Cote never appeared in another playoff game, and the combined totals for McPhee and Mazur in the postseason after their records was 33 games, 2 goals, and 3 assists (5 points)."
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=431

Please though, tell me more about what I thought and said.
Shhh you're just a jealous Blue Jackets fan

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12-31-2012, 01:23 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
I'm sorry, but you make no sense. If Torts trusted him, he'd have played more than 13 minutes a night. Compare him with Adam Henrique who played 17:30 a game (no, he wasn't playing with Kovy and Parise).

If Torts trusted him, he wouldn't have rode the pine for 10 minute increments
Bad comparison. Henrique played with the Devils for most of the season therefore having more time to adjust to the level of play in the nhl. He's also a year older and had a full ahl season under his belt.

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