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Off-Season Madness the 16th: Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

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Old
12-30-2012, 11:30 PM
  #201
Shimso
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Holy crap, I never knew that Dave Winfield was drafted by the Minnesota Vikings (w/o ever playing college football), the ATL Hawks, Utah Stars (ABA) and the Padres. Being drafted by 4 leagues is just insane....

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Old
12-30-2012, 11:49 PM
  #202
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Holy crap, I never knew that Dave Winfield was drafted by the Minnesota Vikings (w/o ever playing college football), the ATL Hawks, Utah Stars (ABA) and the Padres. Being drafted by 4 leagues is just insane....
And the Padres drafted him as a pitcher.

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Old
12-31-2012, 01:40 PM
  #203
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Buster Olney ranks MLB's top 10 rotations:

1) Detroit
2) Washington
3) Los Angeles
4) Philadelphia
5) Cincinnati
6) Tampa Bay
7) Toronto
8) Atlanta
9) San Francisco
10) Oakland

and the writeup on the Jays:

Quote:
The addition of R.A. Dickey gives them a Cy Young winner at the front of a group that could be dynamic, with its combination of left-handers (Mark Buehrle and Ricky Romero) and power right-handers (Josh Johnson and Brandon Morrow). Only Justin Verlander threw more innings than Dickey (233⅔) last season, and Morrow might be ready for a breakout season, after gaining command consistency and lowering his ERA to 2.96 in 124⅔ innings last year.

Linchpin guy: Johnson. When healthy, he's been among the most dominant starters in the majors. Last year, his fastball velocity was down, and he had a 3.81 ERA in 31 starts. It's a big year for Johnson, who turns 29 in January and is eligible for free agency next fall.
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/...-rotations-mlb

I feel like the Jays should be higher, but I'm having a hard time making a definitive argument that any of the teams above them should be bumped down. You can make a contingent case (X team should be lower if...), but nothing concrete.

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Old
12-31-2012, 01:50 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Buster Olney ranks MLB's top 10 rotations:

1) Detroit
2) Washington
3) Los Angeles
4) Philadelphia
5) Cincinnati
6) Tampa Bay
7) Toronto
8) Atlanta
9) San Francisco
10) Oakland

and the writeup on the Jays:



http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/...-rotations-mlb

I feel like the Jays should be higher, but I'm having a hard time making a definitive argument that any of the teams above them should be bumped down. You can make a contingent case (X team should be lower if...), but nothing concrete.
Agreed, they're in that mix and any number of factors could bump them up or down. As long as they're up there, though, the offence should prove to be a real differentiator when compared to some of those clubs.

Of course, there are a number of clubs there that should also have strong run production, so those labelling the Jays a World Series favourite are probably getting a little ahead of themselves. But it's nice to be seriously in the conversation for the first time in a loooong time. Either way, should be an exciting raw to watch pole to pole. Is it April yet?

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Old
12-31-2012, 02:01 PM
  #205
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The only one that should be bumped down is Philadelphia, since Halladay is getting too much credit based on his past reputation. I would take any of the Jays top 5 pitchers over him, at this point. He's also Philadelphia's #3 pitcher, so I am not sure how they are better, unless you think Lee and Hamels makes up the ground on the rest of the Jays rotation.

Tampa Bay is also interchangeable. Price is the best pitcher in the division, however, outside of that, they have a huuuge amount of depth but nothing concrete. I think Moore has a huge season and Hellickson regresses a bit, but is that better than the Jays top 5?

The rest I think I agree with, at least certainly Washington and Detroit.

Anyway, I think Jays' fans should take happiness in:

1) Going from a bottom 10 rotation to a top 10 rotation.
2) Possessing the potential to be the best rotation in baseball.
3) Having a starting pitcher who can win you a game on any given night.

I would be interested in seeing where the Jays rank on a list concerning the best teams on paper (with all things -- bullpen, rotation, offense, defense, and base-running -- considered).

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Old
12-31-2012, 02:08 PM
  #206
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Well the deciding factor in just how dominant this rotation is will be Romero.
If he pitchs similar to 2012 then I would say we rank around #7-8 but if he pitchs like he did 2011 or even 2010 then we rival any rotation 1 thru 5.

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Old
12-31-2012, 02:34 PM
  #207
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Does anyone know if there is a baseball console game that will allow me to play the 92 Jays vs. the 93 Jays?

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Old
12-31-2012, 03:12 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
The only one that should be bumped down is Philadelphia, since Halladay is getting too much credit based on his past reputation. I would take any of the Jays top 5 pitchers over him, at this point. He's also Philadelphia's #3 pitcher, so I am not sure how they are better, unless you think Lee and Hamels makes up the ground on the rest of the Jays rotation.

Tampa Bay is also interchangeable. Price is the best pitcher in the division, however, outside of that, they have a huuuge amount of depth but nothing concrete. I think Moore has a huge season and Hellickson regresses a bit, but is that better than the Jays top 5?

The rest I think I agree with, at least certainly Washington and Detroit.

Anyway, I think Jays' fans should take happiness in:

1) Going from a bottom 10 rotation to a top 10 rotation.
2) Possessing the potential to be the best rotation in baseball.
3) Having a starting pitcher who can win you a game on any given night.

I would be interested in seeing where the Jays rank on a list concerning the best teams on paper (with all things -- bullpen, rotation, offense, defense, and base-running -- considered).
You would take Romero over Halliday? Homer! In the context of where the rotations rank against each other salary is irrelevant.

Doc had 1 bad season where he was injured and everyone wants to count him out, he is a year removed from being the runner up for the cy young. Even with Halliday's struggles he was much better than Romerio. Doc is a HoFer and will rebound next year. If Doc returns to form he is better than any pitcher in our rotation execpt for maybe Dickey.

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Old
12-31-2012, 04:04 PM
  #209
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We just signed Tim Raines as outfield/base running coach.

Great signing.

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Old
12-31-2012, 05:23 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
The only one that should be bumped down is Philadelphia, since Halladay is getting too much credit based on his past reputation. I would take any of the Jays top 5 pitchers over him, at this point. He's also Philadelphia's #3 pitcher, so I am not sure how they are better, unless you think Lee and Hamels makes up the ground on the rest of the Jays rotation.

Tampa Bay is also interchangeable. Price is the best pitcher in the division, however, outside of that, they have a huuuge amount of depth but nothing concrete. I think Moore has a huge season and Hellickson regresses a bit, but is that better than the Jays top 5?

The rest I think I agree with, at least certainly Washington and Detroit.

Anyway, I think Jays' fans should take happiness in:

1) Going from a bottom 10 rotation to a top 10 rotation.
2) Possessing the potential to be the best rotation in baseball.
3) Having a starting pitcher who can win you a game on any given night.

I would be interested in seeing where the Jays rank on a list concerning the best teams on paper (with all things -- bullpen, rotation, offense, defense, and base-running -- considered).
Halladay had one bad year. No way would I want Buerhele over Halladay.

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Old
12-31-2012, 05:39 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Buster Olney ranks MLB's top 10 rotations:

1) Detroit
2) Washington
3) Los Angeles
4) Philadelphia
5) Cincinnati
6) Tampa Bay
7) Toronto
8) Atlanta
9) San Francisco
10) Oakland

and the writeup on the Jays:



http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/...-rotations-mlb

I feel like the Jays should be higher, but I'm having a hard time making a definitive argument that any of the teams above them should be bumped down. You can make a contingent case (X team should be lower if...), but nothing concrete.
I'm still happy being the 3rd best rotation in the AL, and honestly, the Tigers are higher mostly because of Verlander, though their rotation is still sickly good otherwise as well. Outside of V vs Dickey, I'd take pretty much any of our 2-5 over theirs.

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Old
12-31-2012, 07:56 PM
  #212
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We just signed Tim Raines as outfield/base running coach.

Great signing.
That's very interesting. Can't complain about that

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Old
12-31-2012, 08:35 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Buster Olney ranks MLB's top 10 rotations:

1) Detroit
2) Washington
3) Los Angeles
4) Philadelphia
5) Cincinnati
6) Tampa Bay
7) Toronto
8) Atlanta
9) San Francisco
10) Oakland

and the writeup on the Jays:



http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/...-rotations-mlb

I feel like the Jays should be higher, but I'm having a hard time making a definitive argument that any of the teams above them should be bumped down. You can make a contingent case (X team should be lower if...), but nothing concrete.
I don't mind where he ranked Toronto. Although outside of David Price who else does Tampa Bay have that puts them in the top 10? Plus considering they traded James Shields wouldn't lossing him make their rotation not as good going into next season?

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Old
12-31-2012, 09:01 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
The only one that should be bumped down is Philadelphia, since Halladay is getting too much credit based on his past reputation. I would take any of the Jays top 5 pitchers over him, at this point. He's also Philadelphia's #3 pitcher, so I am not sure how they are better, unless you think Lee and Hamels makes up the ground on the rest of the Jays rotation.


You'd take Buehrle over Doc? Come on now.

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Old
12-31-2012, 09:13 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I don't mind where he ranked Toronto. Although outside of David Price who else does Tampa Bay have that puts them in the top 10? Plus considering they traded James Shields wouldn't lossing him make their rotation not as good going into next season?
Tampa's rotation is kind of overrated.
Are they talented? Sure but you really have no idea what your going to get from Moore, Archer, Cobb or Odroizzi.

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Old
12-31-2012, 09:49 PM
  #216
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Old
12-31-2012, 10:24 PM
  #217
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raines
i'll be damned
what?

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Old
12-31-2012, 10:37 PM
  #218
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what?
Tim Raines hired as OF/3B coach.

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Old
01-01-2013, 12:04 AM
  #219
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Tampa's rotation is kind of overrated.
Are they talented? Sure but you really have no idea what your going to get from Moore, Archer, Cobb or Odroizzi.
Yeah I agree. I think Price and Moore are fantastic and Moore will probably improve next season but after that? I dunno. I think Hellickson is due to blow up... there is just no possible way he can continue to be this lucky. Niemann isn't that good but he is a fine bottom end starter. Archer/Cobb/Odorizzi should help but you can expect more than #4-5 production out of those guys.

Jays have a fantastic 1-4 rotation of Dickey/Johnson/Morrow/Buehrle and we all know Romero can be so much better. If he bounces back, somewhere between 2011 and 2012, that's an elite rotation and probably the best 1-5 rotation in the league and having Happ as the #6 guy is pretty wow.

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Old
01-01-2013, 12:32 AM
  #220
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Tim Raines hired as OF/3B coach.
by the Jays? Nice.

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Old
01-01-2013, 06:35 AM
  #221
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I don't mind where he ranked Toronto. Although outside of David Price who else does Tampa Bay have that puts them in the top 10? Plus considering they traded James Shields wouldn't lossing him make their rotation not as good going into next season?
Matt Moore is really good too but after that there are question marks

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Old
01-01-2013, 09:41 AM
  #222
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6 more weeks until pitchers and catchers report.

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Old
01-01-2013, 10:12 AM
  #223
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Old
01-01-2013, 10:30 AM
  #224
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The only one that should be bumped down is Philadelphia, since Halladay is getting too much credit based on his past reputation. I would take any of the Jays top 5 pitchers over him, at this point. He's also Philadelphia's #3 pitcher, so I am not sure how they are better, unless you think Lee and Hamels makes up the ground on the rest of the Jays rotation.
Are you high? So you write Halladay off because he was injured last year and didn't pitch very well, but would take Romero who just completely fell apart for no reason ahead of him? Even taking Buerhle ahead of him is insane.

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01-01-2013, 10:50 AM
  #225
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For 2013, I'd take Halladay over any of our 5 starters.

Easily.

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