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LeBrun: NHL made new offer to NHLPA on Thursday (12/27)

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Old
12-29-2012, 09:57 PM
  #301
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I couldn't agree more with this. Been saying it forever; "it takes 2 to tango". Owners/GM's do not simply offer these deals on their own, without the player/agent pushing for it. Both sides are to blame for these long-term/back-diving deals.
No one puts a gun to these owners heads. Are you seriously suggesting that owners - apparently so successful in other businesses - are unable to resist handing out ridiculously long player contract lengths because of agents coercing them? Or, as is far likelier, could it be that they understand the risks of operating in a free market and did what it took to try to win?

This whole thing is the sports equivalent of asking my girlfriend to take my plate of food away from in front of me, and then getting mad at the waiter for bringing a dessert menu.

By the way - shout out to the poster who tried to give a business and economics lesson earlier - thanks.

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12-29-2012, 10:03 PM
  #302
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No one puts a gun to these owners heads. Are you seriously suggesting that owners - apparently so successful in other businesses - are unable to resist handing out ridiculously long player contract lengths because of agents coercing them? Or, as is far likelier, could it be that they understand the risks of operating in a free market and did what it took to try to win?

This whole thing is the sports equivalent of asking my girlfriend to take my plate of food away from in front of me, and then getting mad at the waiter for bringing a dessert menu.

By the way - shout out to the poster who tried to give a business and economics lesson earlier - thanks.
Yeah, like FA players and their agents don't. That's laughable. I'm saying that player contracts are a negotiation between 2 parties. If you think that the player/agent does not push the owner/GM to get as much as possible, sometimes more than the player is worth for the sake of getting the deal done, then I don't know what to tell you.

These deals are not comparable to a course of food. Bizarre analogy.


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12-29-2012, 10:23 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Xref View Post
Yeah, like FA players and their agents don't.
Players and agents can't put a gun to an owner's head if OTHER owners aren't willing to pay more, there is no market and the player just has to re-sign at whatever is being offered. Other owners are really the ones that 'force' the spending.

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12-29-2012, 10:26 PM
  #304
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Yeah, like FA players and their agents don't. That's laughable. I'm saying that player contracts are a negotiation between 2 parties. If you think that the player/agent does not push the owner/GM to get as much as possible, sometimes more than the player is worth for the sake of getting the deal done, then I don't know what to tell you.

These deals are not comparable to a course of food. Bizarre analogy.
Pretty funny that you thought my analogy was about a course of food. Sure players and their agents push for as much as possible - but no one forces the owners to accept it (a point which you don't address). It's like they can't help themselves and need to institute rules to avoid temptation - just like when I ask someone to remove food from in front of my face so I can avoid temptation. Hopefully you understand the "bizarre analogy" now....

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12-29-2012, 10:32 PM
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As profitable as they have been, Just like now?
uh, thats not how math works

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12-29-2012, 10:42 PM
  #306
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Pretty funny that you thought my analogy was about a course of food...
Yes, I admit that struck me as "strange" as well. Rather like that episode of Sharpes Rifles starring Sean Bean when some Cook from the Ranks of Napoleans Army had somehow managed to convince hundreds of enlisted men to desert. Become outlaws. Completely implausible. Didnt make any sense to the storyline, plot, and in arguing against, I get fired.... Typical.... Anyway, just thought Id share... carry on.

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12-29-2012, 11:09 PM
  #307
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No one puts a gun to these owners heads. Are you seriously suggesting that owners - apparently so successful in other businesses - are unable to resist handing out ridiculously long player contract lengths because of agents coercing them? Or, as is far likelier, could it be that they understand the risks of operating in a free market and did what it took to try to win?

This whole thing is the sports equivalent of asking my girlfriend to take my plate of food away from in front of me, and then getting mad at the waiter for bringing a dessert menu.

By the way - shout out to the poster who tried to give a business and economics lesson earlier - thanks.
the NHL is 30 independent businesses...each compete against each other...if the rules allow exploitation, the will to win (and increase individual profit) will make the owners do whatever they need to do....good for the league as a whole or not.....their team alone is the only one that matters to them.

the NHL is also 30 independent businesses where 1/3 make money and 1/3 lose lots of money.....the playing field is not equal for all, so the rules must accommodate this and protect the weak....you cant expect one owner to not sign a ridiculous contract for the betterment of the league if he feels it helps his team....each team has different economic realities, different short and long term needs and different ownership philosophies....the rules set a framework to protect each other from those variations that might be harmful to everyone...

even though they are individual businesses, they are all going after the same pool of employees...the actions of one affects the economics of the other....if NY can afford a long or inflated contract because of some other gain it provides them, when winnipeg goes to sign their players they will have to match what NY has done, even if it against their best interest....they risk not being competitive if they dont....the rules are there to stop the first instance.

the owners are not a single entity....they are 30 people competing against each other.

it is more like saying why have speed limits in school zones.....its obviously dangerous to speed and in the long run will probably cause an accident with a child.....should we not have limits under the philosophy that nobody has a gun to anyone's head making them speed.....they should just understand that it is best not to speed because its in the collective best interest, or without rules would people decide in the moment that getting somewhere quickly is worth the risk.


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12-29-2012, 11:42 PM
  #308
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Yeah, like FA players and their agents don't. That's laughable. I'm saying that player contracts are a negotiation between 2 parties. If you think that the player/agent does not push the owner/GM to get as much as possible, sometimes more than the player is worth for the sake of getting the deal done, then I don't know what to tell you.

These deals are not comparable to a course of food. Bizarre analogy.
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
the NHL is 30 independent businesses...each compete against each other...if the rules allow exploitation, the will to win (and increase individual profit) will make the owners do whatever they need to do....good for the league as a whole or not.....their team alone is the only one that matters to them.

the NHL is also 30 independent businesses where 1/3 make money and 1/3 lose lots of money.....the playing field is not equal for all, so the rules must accommodate this and protect the weak....you cant expect one owner to not sign a ridiculous contract for the betterment of the league if he feels it helps his team....each team has different economic realities, different short and long term needs and different ownership philosophies....the rules set a framework to protect each other from those variations that might be harmful to everyone...

even though they are individual businesses, they are all going after the same pool of employees...the actions of one affects the economics of the other....if NY can afford a long or inflated contract because of some other gain it provides them, when winnipeg goes to sign their players they will have to match what NY has done, even if it against their best interest....they risk not being competitive if they dont....the rules are there to stop the first instance.

the owners are not a single entity....they are 30 people competing against each other.

it is more like saying why have speed limits in school zones.....its obviously dangerous to speed and in the long run will probably cause an accident with a child.....should we not have limits under the philosophy that nobody has a gun to anyone's head making them speed.....they should just understand that it is best not to speed because its in the collective best interest, or without rules would people decide in the moment that getting somewhere quickly is worth the risk.

If the collective best interest of the league was the primary goal, those "1/3 of owners" apparently losing lots of money would have their teams relocated or contracted (although I'm sure the PA wouldn't exactly be thrilled about the latter)

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12-29-2012, 11:44 PM
  #309
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the NHL is also 30 independent businesses where 1/3 make money and 1/3 lose lots of money.....
I guess 1/3's of the NHL owners are stupid businessmen. Why would anyone continually lose money rather than selling or folding up their franchise? .....unless this just isn't true....hmmmm

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12-30-2012, 12:06 AM
  #310
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Oh boy, I'm pretty certain that NHLPA doesn't want NHL to call out that one.

NHL has already filed a pre-emptive strike in a employer-friendly court, NHLPA has extremely hard time convincing the judge that their DOI is not a negotiating tactic.

If NHLPA really wanted to put pressure on NHL, they would call a vote allowing Fehr & executive committee to proceed with full decertification. But everyone knows they won't do that, they go DOI route only because it's faster.
If DOI fails... what's next?

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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
Yes, it truly is an art, one would almost call it ......stalling
Stalling?

If you're in negotiation with someone who starts off by lowballing you... and has done nothing but improve their offer...

Well, you just sit there and let them improve their offer.

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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
What's Bettman's (and the owners') objective in cancelling the Season even if they see positive conditions in the negotiation process in order not to cancel?

I'm more skeptical that Fehr won't come up with yet another counter offer to keep biting back for more from the owners, and that he won't be able to convince the players to continue the hold out.
The PA just voted 700-22 or something.
THey're not folding anytime soon

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12-30-2012, 12:25 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
the NHL is 30 independent businesses...each compete against each other...if the rules allow exploitation, the will to win (and increase individual profit) will make the owners do whatever they need to do....good for the league as a whole or not.....their team alone is the only one that matters to them.

the NHL is also 30 independent businesses where 1/3 make money and 1/3 lose lots of money.....the playing field is not equal for all, so the rules must accommodate this and protect the weak....you cant expect one owner to not sign a ridiculous contract for the betterment of the league if he feels it helps his team....each team has different economic realities, different short and long term needs and different ownership philosophies....the rules set a framework to protect each other from those variations that might be harmful to everyone...

even though they are individual businesses, they are all going after the same pool of employees...the actions of one affects the economics of the other....if NY can afford a long or inflated contract because of some other gain it provides them, when winnipeg goes to sign their players they will have to match what NY has done, even if it against their best interest....they risk not being competitive if they dont....the rules are there to stop the first instance.

the owners are not a single entity....they are 30 people competing against each other.

it is more like saying why have speed limits in school zones.....its obviously dangerous to speed and in the long run will probably cause an accident with a child.....should we not have limits under the philosophy that nobody has a gun to anyone's head making them speed.....they should just understand that it is best not to speed because its in the collective best interest, or without rules would people decide in the moment that getting somewhere quickly is worth the risk.

Come on.

You're either in it for business or sport.

Unless you're an 06 team, it's hard to get away with both.

These guys are businessmen trying to run businesses like a sports competition? And I'm supposed to sympathize with them?

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12-30-2012, 10:11 AM
  #312
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Stalling?

If you're in negotiation with someone who starts off by lowballing you... and has done nothing but improve their offer...

Well, you just sit there and let them improve their offer.
While true, stalling too long ends up hurting the improved offers. Eventually there will be a breaking point and the players could be looking at two years of lost paychecks because Fehr thinks there is more to give.

The more that the PA stalls in this situation is likely to hurt their paychecks in the long run. It needs to be over for their sake and the NHL's.

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12-30-2012, 10:57 AM
  #313
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The PA just voted 700-22 or something.
THey're not folding anytime soon
Well there you go. Sounds like we can start looking forward, hopefully, to hockey next Season. Maybe by then the players will get a stronger taste for receiving paycheques again.

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12-30-2012, 11:08 AM
  #314
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Well there you go. Sounds like we can start looking forward, hopefully, to hockey next Season. Maybe by then the players will get a stronger taste for receiving paycheques again.
They will, when they take jobs at Home Depot. There is only 1 NHL, and they are looking to destroy the very league that pays them stupid-money for playing a game. Hard to fathom, really.

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12-30-2012, 11:13 AM
  #315
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Players and agents can't put a gun to an owner's head if OTHER owners aren't willing to pay more, there is no market and the player just has to re-sign at whatever is being offered. Other owners are really the ones that 'force' the spending.
There is no other hockey league willing to pay the NHLPA more than the NHL. Yet here we are, the NHLPA is holding a gun to the Owners' heads this very moment........

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12-30-2012, 11:41 AM
  #316
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Would it have been any less pathetic if they'd signed them to 8 year deals, then rolled them back? Or how about 7? Or how about they collude and say "we're not going to sign anyone until the new CBA is written." Oh wait...can't do THAT. And besides...is Minnesota Suter and Parise's top choice if they can only sign a max 5 year contract? Yeah. Not likely.

Does Suter sign Philly's offer sheet if it's for 5 years? No...not likely.

The owners have to remain competitive in order to be profitable. Junk teams don't fill the seats unless you're one of the many amazing people from Toronto that take out 2nd mortgages to watch mediocre teams. The rest of the league can't get by like that. A lot of these teams lose enough money already. Failing to pony up for top end talent, whatever it costs, can essentially cost you more is lost revenue than what the player's salary is whacking you for.

With 5 year contract limits, I think you'll find players will be more likely to lock up with teams they feel will be most competitive than they are to simply chase $'s.
My sense is that some players/agents going into free agency may opt for a short term contract of 1 or 2 years on the basis that their next contract of 6 or 7 years with the same team would be the money maker, depending on how well they do during the initial short term deal.

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12-30-2012, 12:00 PM
  #317
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There is no other hockey league willing to pay the NHLPA more than the NHL. Yet here we are, the NHLPA is holding a gun to the Owners' heads this very moment........
Awww... Those poor little billionaires. How will they ever cope? They can't play with their toys because the toys refuse to replace their own batteries! I feel soooo bad for them!

I hope the union dissolves and puts the hammer to them to these little crybabies! I really couldn't care less if the National Lockout League ever plays again.

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12-30-2012, 12:09 PM
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While true, stalling too long ends up hurting the improved offers. Eventually there will be a breaking point and the players could be looking at two years of lost paychecks because Fehr thinks there is more to give.

The more that the PA stalls in this situation is likely to hurt their paychecks in the long run. It needs to be over for their sake and the NHL's.
It needs to be over, sure.
But the PA can't just roll over.
And there's increasing noise that the owners have told Bettman that they are not willing to die on any hills.

So now the owners have to cave a lot

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12-30-2012, 12:11 PM
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Awww... Those poor little billionaires. How will they ever cope? They can't play with their toys because the toys refuse to replace their own batteries! I feel soooo bad for them!

I hope the union dissolves and puts the hammer to them to these little crybabies! I really couldn't care less if the National Lockout League ever plays again.
Well, they are "businessmen", and most of them didn't make money in their other ventures just to then enter into the NHL to lose portions of that money, over and above the revenue being made, to excessive payments given to the players.

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12-30-2012, 12:13 PM
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Well there you go. Sounds like we can start looking forward, hopefully, to hockey next Season. Maybe by then the players will get a stronger taste for receiving paycheques again.
I personally stopped caring whether there is a season this year.
I canceled cable and won't hook it up until playoffs at the earliest.

But it sounds to me like the owners are caving and that they are going to agree to a deal that still represents lots of concessions from the PA.

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12-30-2012, 12:15 PM
  #321
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It needs to be over, sure.
But the PA can't just roll over.
And there's increasing noise that the owners have told Bettman that they are not willing to die on any hills.

So now the owners have to cave a lot
If I were an owner, I wouldn't see myself "caving" any more here. I assume that if you were a player, you'd be feeling the same. So, as both of us are fans of the game, we'd both better hope that the players and the owners aren't of our attitude/opinion.

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12-30-2012, 12:24 PM
  #322
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If I were an owner, I wouldn't see myself "caving" any more here. I assume that if you were a player, you'd be feeling the same. So, as both of us are fans of the game, we'd both better hope that the players and the owners aren't of our attitude/opinion.
I'm a fan of the game. And if it takes the ruination of the NHL to destroy Bettman and the lockout-first owners, I'm fine.

If we get an alternative to the NHL, I'm fine.

If I never see another Canadiens vs Wings game (my favorite game in all of sports), I'll live.

The punks who run this league have made a mockery of the fans and their love of their teams. They've tarnished it. Once? Fine. Twice...canceling the season? And now a third?


So now, when Mike Ilitch asks for money from state and local governments... I write my state rep and state senator to let them know that Ilitch doesn't deserve the money that comes from my tax dollars.

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12-30-2012, 12:38 PM
  #323
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If DOI fails... what's next?



Stalling?

If you're in negotiation with someone who starts off by lowballing you... and has done nothing but improve their offer...


Well, you just sit there and let them improve their offer.



The PA just voted 700-22 or something.
THey're not folding anytime soon
At this stage of the game it's ancient history, the league came back with 50-50, that's what the concern should be.


Last edited by Killion: 12-30-2012 at 07:31 PM. Reason: not reqd...
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12-30-2012, 12:38 PM
  #324
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I'm a fan of the game. And if it takes the ruination of the NHL to destroy Bettman and the lockout-first owners, I'm fine.

If we get an alternative to the NHL, I'm fine.

If I never see another Canadiens vs Wings game (my favorite game in all of sports), I'll live.

The punks who run this league have made a mockery of the fans and their love of their teams. They've tarnished it. Once? Fine. Twice...canceling the season? And now a third?


So now, when Mike Ilitch asks for money from state and local governments... I write my state rep and state senator to let them know that Ilitch doesn't deserve the money that comes from my tax dollars.
Yes, we are the fans of the game, and it's our $ which go most of the way towards maintaining the game. But you seem to be forgetting that it is the owners (and the players) who provide us with the product (assuming that we'll buy it). They have really no obligation to provide us with anything or in any particular form. They (and that's mostly the owners) decide what the product is that they're going to present. Now we can choose to buy that product or not.

Your attitude however, seems to be putting the carriage before the horse. You have this idea about the product you want, how much the owners should be willing to spend or lose, and if they don't provide it just as you want it, then they're somehow not fulfilling an obligation to you. The owners (and players) never went to the fans and asked: 'We'd like to present you a sport, how do you want it?' That's never been the way it worked.

Of course, if someone else has a better or somewhat different product, then the different or competing businesses have to try to find ways to please the fans more; but that's never been the way in any of the North American big leagues, other than the different sports competing with each other. (No wait... Yes, the WHA tried to compete with the NHL, but that didn't have a whole lot of success.)


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-30-2012 at 12:47 PM. Reason: slight modification
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12-30-2012, 12:55 PM
  #325
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I believe almost everyone that posts here is a fan of the game regardless of your opinions on this mess. For anyone here to insinuate otherwise betrays their true motivations.

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