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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

LeBrun: NHL made new offer to NHLPA on Thursday (12/27)

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Old
12-30-2012, 03:04 PM
  #326
BLONG7
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Players and agents can't put a gun to an owner's head if OTHER owners aren't willing to pay more, there is no market and the player just has to re-sign at whatever is being offered. Other owners are really the ones that 'force' the spending.
If other owners weren't willing to pay more, wouldn't there be a Collusiuon issue?? It's a no win, except for the agent and the player, every time...it drives the cost of business up, every time...

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12-30-2012, 05:02 PM
  #327
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If other owners weren't willing to pay more, wouldn't there be a Collusiuon issue??
Yes and no. If Jonathan Toews wanted a Crosby-like contract and nobody gave it to him, that's just the market not bearing out an overinflated version of the player's value. Owners can't collude in keeping the market artificially down but at some point the market itself dictates value.

Som team may want to pay player X $25 million for 5 years, if other owners are offering $40 million for 5 years then the team offering $25 has to pony up or lose the player. Other owners are the ones that create the market. Players and agents can't invent one. Well they can bluff a bigger market than actually exists but risk getting called out on it.

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12-30-2012, 05:39 PM
  #328
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Yes, we are the fans of the game, and it's our $ which go most of the way towards maintaining the game. But you seem to be forgetting that it is the owners (and the players) who provide us with the product (assuming that we'll buy it). They have really no obligation to provide us with anything or in any particular form. They (and that's mostly the owners) decide what the product is that they're going to present. Now we can choose to buy that product or not.

Hah.
No they don't. And i have no obligation to continue sending my money to them.


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Your attitude however, seems to be putting the carriage before the horse. You have this idea about the product you want, how much the owners should be willing to spend or lose, and if they don't provide it just as you want it, then they're somehow not fulfilling an obligation to you. The owners (and players) never went to the fans and asked: 'We'd like to present you a sport, how do you want it?' That's never been the way it worked.
I have this idea about having games played... without cancelling seasons every 6 years to circumvent the natural market.


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Of course, if someone else has a better or somewhat different product, then the different or competing businesses have to try to find ways to please the fans more; but that's never been the way in any of the North American big leagues, other than the different sports competing with each other. (No wait... Yes, the WHA tried to compete with the NHL, but that didn't have a whole lot of success.)
I'd say that the WHA had a ton of success.
Something like a new WHA is exactly the kind of kick in the nuts the NHL needs.

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12-30-2012, 05:42 PM
  #329
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No one is saying that the league HAS to provide good services. No one HAS to do anything.

What we're saying here is that the league NEEDS to provide a good product or they WILL go out of business. It's like any other company, if you don't focus on the customer you will be sorry.

I feel obligation here has two meanings to different people:

Obligation: The absolute NEED to do something, no way out of it

Obligation: While you don't HAVE to do anything, you NEED to do it or go out of business

One means that you absolutely need to as in "forced" to. You aren't forced to do anything. If the NHL wants to lose all their fans, that is their choice.

Same word, used in different places. Just like the word "need" can mean two different things. Need can mean absolute while also used as an expression replacing should. No, it is not life or death. Yes, they need or HAVE TO to focus on the customer or they will go out of business.

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12-30-2012, 05:44 PM
  #330
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Hah.
No they don't. And i have no obligation to continue sending my money to them.




I have this idea about having games played... without cancelling seasons every 6 years to circumvent the natural market.



I'd say that the WHA had a ton of success.
Something like a new WHA is exactly the kind of kick in the nuts the NHL needs.
30 teams contained in a league some big markets and some small markets is not a natural market place.

WHA a ton of success?.....wow I would hate to see in your eyes how they could be a failure.

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12-30-2012, 05:48 PM
  #331
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If NHL owners think they can buy these iconic hockey teams that have been watched by generations of fans and then shut them down... they simply don't understand the values of the league they're a part of.

Bettman doesn't get it. We know that. Fehr probably doesn't get it either.
Whatever.

At the end of the day, this is Bettman's third lockout. He's taking something important and turning it into a ****pile.

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12-30-2012, 05:52 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
If NHL owners think they can buy these iconic hockey teams that have been watched by generations of fans and then shut them down... they simply don't understand the values of the league they're a part of.

Bettman doesn't get it. We know that. Fehr probably doesn't get it either.
Whatever.

At the end of the day, this is Bettman's third lockout. He's taking something important and turning it into a ****pile.
I was a big hater of Bettman, and I still dislike him as a commissioner, but it's alot of Fehr here too.

Both Fehr and Daly are bringing this down. One does an idiot thing when a deal was on the table. All they had to agree on was contract length and CBA term. They didn't agree on any of it, not attempting to meet in the middle whatsoever. They could've said, let's give the 6/7 years instead of 8. They made no honest attempt.

Fehr is an idiot for doing this. Daly shouldn't have notified him the deal was rejected over a voice mail. Fehr is obnoxious for playing with the heart strings and going out before a deal was done. Fehr is annoying for stomping out there 10 minutes later to announce it, clearly in the heat of the moment. Bettman was stupid to take everything off the table once this happened.

Clearly you can see some pattern here.

Idiot Mistake
Idiot Mistake
I hate you!
No, I hate you!
Fine, i'll go tell the media
Everything is off the table

-weeks without talking-

So how's the wife and kids?

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12-30-2012, 06:13 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Hah.
No they don't. And i have no obligation to continue sending my money to them.




I have this idea about having games played... without cancelling seasons every 6 years to circumvent the natural market.




I'd say that the WHA had a ton of success.
Something like a new WHA is exactly the kind of kick in the nuts the NHL needs.
So do the owners, which is why they want a 10-year deal for the next CBA. But the players don't. They want to go through this every 5 or 6 years. But for some reason, the Owners are getting slammed for this. Weird.

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12-30-2012, 07:54 PM
  #334
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. . . circumvent the natural market.
All of these CBAs circumvent the 'natural' market. I really doubt the majority of these players want to know how the real market would function. Its very results driven.

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12-30-2012, 10:25 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
30 teams contained in a league some big markets and some small markets is not a natural market place.

WHA a ton of success?.....wow I would hate to see in your eyes how they could be a failure.
They proved that a number of markets the NHL was ignoring were worth investing in.

Like, say, Edmondton. The success of the Oilers alone makes the WHA more successful than most league upstarts competing against the big 4 ever dream of.

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12-30-2012, 10:39 PM
  #336
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The league wasn't a success, having a handful of teams merged into your competitors doesn't make the league a success. It had a lasting impact by adding new markets like the ABA in basketball, but it wasn't exactly as successful as the AFL where the entire league got merged into the NFL.

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12-30-2012, 11:20 PM
  #337
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I'm frustrated with the owners continually offering more. When the hell are they just going to draw the line and say, No More! Every new offer has just made them look weaker and weaker, and we all know Fehr has pushed that idea all the way. Essentially, whatever problems the League has had to deal with, all these continued concessions are going to mean that those problems aren't going to be anywhere near resolved. Certainly they weren't going to be totally resolved anyway, but each extra concession just weakens any advancement that could have been made.

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12-30-2012, 11:36 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'm frustrated with the owners continually offering more. When the hell are they just going to draw the line and say, No More! Every new offer has just made them look weaker and weaker, and we all know Fehr has pushed that idea all the way. Essentially, whatever problems the League has had to deal with, all these continued concessions are going to mean that those problems aren't going to be anywhere near resolved. Certainly they weren't going to be totally resolved anyway, but each extra concession just weakens any advancement that could have been made.
This is an example that the owners are clueless of the league's problems. They should have never introduced the idea of "Make Whole" to begin with.

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12-30-2012, 11:56 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'm frustrated with the owners continually offering more. When the hell are they just going to draw the line and say, No More! Every new offer has just made them look weaker and weaker, and we all know Fehr has pushed that idea all the way. Essentially, whatever problems the League has had to deal with, all these continued concessions are going to mean that those problems aren't going to be anywhere near resolved. Certainly they weren't going to be totally resolved anyway, but each extra concession just weakens any advancement that could have been made.
Hey, no one is holding a gun to their heads, right?

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12-31-2012, 12:26 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Players and agents can't put a gun to an owner's head if OTHER owners aren't willing to pay more, there is no market and the player just has to re-sign at whatever is being offered. Other owners are really the ones that 'force' the spending.

Keep in mind gms don't KNOW what other gms are offering.... also that teams are trying to one-up each other for competitive advantage as well. Also people need to really understand what the roles of these people are - most owners aren't involved in contract signings outside of maybe approving the really big ones (with the GM likely pushing for it). The majority of the owners set a budget for the GM and let him do his job....

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12-31-2012, 07:11 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Yes and no. If Jonathan Toews wanted a Crosby-like contract and nobody gave it to him, that's just the market not bearing out an overinflated version of the player's value. Owners can't collude in keeping the market artificially down but at some point the market itself dictates value.

Som team may want to pay player X $25 million for 5 years, if other owners are offering $40 million for 5 years then the team offering $25 has to pony up or lose the player. Other owners are the ones that create the market. Players and agents can't invent one. Well they can bluff a bigger market than actually exists but risk getting called out on it.
True, but it only takes one owner, and one GM who's team did not make the playoffs to inflate the prices and the market, just one...and the agents exploit this every time...

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12-31-2012, 08:23 AM
  #342
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GM's know EXACTLY what other teams offer players that are being shopped. its a very small circle, adn agents have big mouths.....by design. Let's not be naive.

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12-31-2012, 09:14 AM
  #343
The Legend
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They will, when they take jobs at Home Depot. There is only 1 NHL, and they are looking to destroy the very league that pays them stupid-money for playing a game. Hard to fathom, really.
I really despise this argument. If you just take a step back and realize the "stupid money" that all of the fans will pay to watch said "game", and ESPECIALLY how much time we spend talking about said "game", then it makes complete sense how much money they get paid to play it.

I guess you would prefer they make more sensible money, while still risking their long-term health and foregoing any future job prospects, just for our collective enjoyment? No wonder the owners think that they're cattle...

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12-31-2012, 09:18 AM
  #344
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If NHL owners think they can buy these iconic hockey teams that have been watched by generations of fans and then shut them down... they simply don't understand the values of the league they're a part of.

Bettman doesn't get it. We know that. Fehr probably doesn't get it either.
Whatever.

At the end of the day, this is Bettman's third lockout. He's taking something important and turning it into a ****pile.
This. Players have changed since 1994....Bettman (and some of the owners) haven't. Are hockey players just inherently greedier than other athletes?

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12-31-2012, 09:52 AM
  #345
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I really despise this argument. If you just take a step back and realize the "stupid money" that all of the fans will pay to watch said "game", and ESPECIALLY how much time we spend talking about said "game", then it makes complete sense how much money they get paid to play it.

I guess you would prefer they make more sensible money, while still risking their long-term health and foregoing any future job prospects, just for our collective enjoyment? No wonder the owners think that they're cattle...
So an extra $100,000 mitigates the risks and long term health issues? Really? The paying customer has zero input into how much of his/her dollar goes towards players. Unless there was a fan ballot to vote on the HRR split that I missed.

You talk about the safety risks that players face and why they need more money. Fine. What about the financial risks that the owners face? Are those risks irrelevant? Id love to hear why.

The average hockey player will bring home somewhere in the range of $10 million over the course of his playing career. Meanwhile, a fireman or cop will bring home maybe 1/10th of that money over his/her career, yet face real-world risks EVERY DAY. So spare me the risk argument, it's hogwash.

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12-31-2012, 09:54 AM
  #346
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This. Players have changed since 1994....Bettman (and some of the owners) haven't. Are hockey players just inherently greedier than other athletes?
The PA went on strike right before the playoffs before the league ever locked them out.

Hockey players aren't greedier than other athletes, but they are fighting with the league over a smaller pile of money.

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12-31-2012, 10:40 AM
  #347
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So an extra $100,000 mitigates the risks and long term health issues? Really? The paying customer has zero input into how much of his/her dollar goes towards players. Unless there was a fan ballot to vote on the HRR split that I missed.

You talk about the safety risks that players face and why they need more money. Fine. What about the financial risks that the owners face? Are those risks irrelevant? Id love to hear why.

The average hockey player will bring home somewhere in the range of $10 million over the course of his playing career. Meanwhile, a fireman or cop will bring home maybe 1/10th of that money over his/her career, yet face real-world risks EVERY DAY. So spare me the risk argument, it's hogwash.
Yes the paying customer has zero input on the HRR split; but that is completely missing the point. You (as a paying customer) are saying that the players make far too much money for what they do (I believe you called it "stupid money"). I am saying that given the amount of money you (as a paying customer) and other fans pay to watch that game, there clearly is a lot of cash being pumped into the league. So someone gets to make "stupid money" over a "game".

As for the financial risk of owners, sure it exists. I wasn't saying that the owners make too much money...I was simply showing you why the players deserve to make as much as they do. NHL Players face plenty of real-world risks every day. Do you need me to link to studies on brain disease, suicides, spinal injuries, skate wounds, etc?

By the way - I wonder how much financial risk Greg Jamison is taking on in Phoenix...

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12-31-2012, 11:02 AM
  #348
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Yes the paying customer has zero input on the HRR split; but that is completely missing the point. You (as a paying customer) are saying that the players make far too much money for what they do (I believe you called it "stupid money"). I am saying that given the amount of money you (as a paying customer) and other fans pay to watch that game, there clearly is a lot of cash being pumped into the league. So someone gets to make "stupid money" over a "game".

As for the financial risk of owners, sure it exists. I wasn't saying that the owners make too much money...I was simply showing you why the players deserve to make as much as they do. NHL Players face plenty of real-world risks every day. Do you need me to link to studies on brain disease, suicides, spinal injuries, skate wounds, etc?

By the way - I wonder how much financial risk Greg Jamison is taking on in Phoenix...
That's fine. But the owners deserve to make as much as they can as well. Otherwise, why bother having an NHL? Might as well shut it down and build hotels in NYC instead. Then where do the players turn for lucrative hockey jobs?

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12-31-2012, 11:12 AM
  #349
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That's fine. But the owners deserve to make as much as they can as well. Otherwise, why bother having an NHL? Might as well shut it down and build hotels in NYC instead. Then where do the players turn for lucrative hockey jobs?
Great point. The owners can make money elsewhere - the players can't.

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12-31-2012, 11:29 AM
  #350
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Great point. The owners can make money elsewhere - the players can't.
Very few NHL players get enough endorsement deals (during their playing years) to make a big dent in income. That's about the only non-playing "work" they can do, while playing.

(This is not the NBA nor NFL where guys can get millions per year.)

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