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Realistically....How many teams should be in the NHL?

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Old
12-30-2012, 12:27 AM
  #226
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Frankly I think anyone who answers the question posed in the thread title with any number other than 30 is off their rocker. The league should work to stabilize the teams it already has, not look to contract. Contraction is a league-wide death knell, a thing that only happens in "bush leagues". You contract the league by two, four or TEN teams and you will forever taint its image. Good luck trying to ever get a new 18,000-seat arena in any municipality in North America. Good luck ever getting a national TV deal anywhere near the level of the NFL's.

Expansion is not something the league should be looking at either. Especially this kooky European division crap: it'll never happen, people.

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12-30-2012, 12:30 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Lizardking89 View Post
Maybe it was just a coincidence but post expansion hockey was boring as hell in comparison even with the influx of exciting European players. I think the amount of good goalies now has something to do with lack of scoring as well.
There are three factors that have sucked down scoring, none of which are really related to expansion:

1. Goalie equipment that was allowed to grow enormous (this has been covered exhaustively in another thread)

2. Coaches who have brought a philosophy of "playing to not lose" as opposed to "playing to win".....which has given us such gems as the trap and the left-wing lock. There are a number of theories as to why this sea-change in coaching philosophy occurred but the one that seems to make the most sense is that wide-open and high-flying is largely talent driven and coaches don't like that as they feel the game is out of their control. So they bog the game down in "systems" where they, the coaches, have total control of the game.

3. Penalties have been steadily declining since the 1980s, to the point where today the number of penalty minutes per game is roughly half of what it was in the '80s. Fewer penalties equal fewer power-plays which in turn equals fewer goals.

If the league was truly interested in getting scoring back up they need to fix all three. Fixing just one or two won't solve the problem.

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12-30-2012, 01:18 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I guess Stamkos' 60 goal season wasn't entertaining... I feel it is important to point out here that we only use the 1-3-1 in specific situations. There are many games when we don't use it at all. If we lose a couple of players to injury during the course of a game, we'll use it more. But it truly is the exception rather than the norm.



We were doing pretty well until OK Hockey came in. They simply demolished our team and set us back a decade as far as our financial situation, on-ice talent and cap situation. Now I believe we have no debt, season ticket sales were increasing (thanks, lockout, for hurting that), new sponsors coming on board. Mr. Vinik is intelligent enough to know that he has no business trying to run the team and has hired very good people (Yzerman, Leiweke, etc.) to take care of that for him.

These things will take some recovery time, but under Mr. Vinik we're on our way.
Good to here. Yzerman will get that team on track. Pure class and brains.

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12-30-2012, 01:41 AM
  #229
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Players are bigger and faster than they were 10 years ago, the arena size on the other hand remains the same size since 1900. Make the rink bigger

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12-30-2012, 07:55 AM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoser View Post
Frankly I think anyone who answers the question posed in the thread title with any number other than 30 is off their rocker. The league should work to stabilize the teams it already has, not look to contract. Contraction is a league-wide death knell, a thing that only happens in "bush leagues". You contract the league by two, four or TEN teams and you will forever taint its image. Good luck trying to ever get a new 18,000-seat arena in any municipality in North America. Good luck ever getting a national TV deal anywhere near the level of the NFL's.

Expansion is not something the league should be looking at either. Especially this kooky European division crap: it'll never happen, people.
Agreed an Owner is not going to volunteer to give up his team without getting paid. A city is not going to allow it's lease to be broken without penalties. It is going to cost 250 million for each team contracted. Who is going to pay for this? Fans gripe about the number of teams what would you rather have 24 team league or ticket prices tripled. Contraction is never going to happen.

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12-30-2012, 08:04 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Marty Party View Post
Has this board always had it in for the Preds? SMH.
I won't speak for anyone in here, but I know there are still a lot of people who are pissed that Balsillie wasn't able to steal your team and that have absolutely no idea of the turnaround that's happened since then.

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YES YES YES

Pretty much ever since Baldy tried to move them to Hamilton 90 percent of Canadians have believed the garbage they read and hear about us from the media there who wanted us removed from the league and no matter what we do it's never good enough we sell out 97 percent of the building then we gave out 15550 free tickets or they were cheap. Most of the haters have never watched the team and certainly have never been here.
I see someone beat me to the punch. I wouldn't say it's even close to that big (though it may certainly feel like it), but the vocal minority that can't stand the idea of teams in the sunbelt is sadly larger then many think and quite a bit more vocal. Of course, the nature of message boards is to attract the extremes so that's what you run into here. And sadly, much as I predicted, Atlanta moving to Winnipeg has only exacerbated the situation. No offense to the Winnipeg fans as the vast majority of you haven't been the problem since you got a team again. I've pointed out numerous times that the blame for this lies squarely at the feet of the sports media in Canada, be it national or local.

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12-30-2012, 08:05 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
32:



or 36:



I like the gist of it but needs a bit of travel equalization IMHO.

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12-30-2012, 08:09 AM
  #233
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I think a majority of Canadians would say there should not be NHL teams in the south.

But I bet most hockey knowledgeable people anywhere would say that the Preds have been a well-run franchise. Same as the Canes.
I for one would love to see the NHL succeed in the south. I'm actually a little sad that we got a team back at the expense of Atlanta, and that it didn't really catch on there. No, really. No sarcasm here.

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12-30-2012, 08:27 AM
  #234
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32 (8 divisions of 4) would be fine but not for a while - probably not until around 2020 or later. That is probably the ideal number for sports franchises in North America. Only the NFL is at that number now and there is no real talk about expanding in the NBA or MLB any time soon.

Will all 30 NHL teams we have now remain where they are? Probably no. There will be relocation but I seriously doubt contraction will happen.

This is also not something inherent to the NHL. The NBA has had recent movements too and looks like they have a few on the bubble. LA is still gunning for an NFL team so we could see a franchise moving (maybe Oakland again or San Diego). It is all part of a 'franchisee' sports league system which exists in North America.

And, for all the people basically trying to pitch turning NHL into the EPL, give it a rest. It is not going to happen.

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12-30-2012, 10:39 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
There are three factors that have sucked down scoring, none of which are really related to expansion:

1. Goalie equipment

2. Coaches

3. Penalties have been steadily declining

If the league was truly interested in getting scoring back up they need to fix all three. Fixing just one or two won't solve the problem.
Two other things, one that relates to point two. First, the clogging of the middle of the ice in the defensive zone. I always get shouted down about this, but I really think the league needs an illegal defense rule similar to the NBA. You can only spend so much time in a certain box in front of the net (modified to: if you are a forward).

Second, I think the increase in overall talent in the league has played a huge role in this. Remember, talent isn't just about offense, it's about defense too. More talented defensemen means less scoring. More defensively talented forwards means less scoring. What some people attribute to a watered-down talent base I attribute to the opposite.

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12-30-2012, 10:43 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Not too much conflict between baseball and hockey as the seasons don't overlap too much. I know lots of folks who have gone to a day Rays game and then headed back to Tampa for a Lightning game. Football is one day a week, usually in the daytime. Shouldn't be a problem.
Just to continue on that particular point... For many fans, of a variety of sports and activities that are available, it must also come down to economics in how much attention they can dedicate to one or the other sport, especially in economic tough times.


In general, you've given good responses to most of the points that I brought up. However, I'd still have to think that all of those elements still do at least in a small part play a role in how much attention hockey might get in a southern market compared to a northern market. It's not that the fans care less, but that they are generally at least somewhat fewer, and there are numerous other at least potential distractions that could keep hockey from getting as much attention as it could get elsewhere.

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12-30-2012, 11:07 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Second, I think the increase in overall talent in the league has played a huge role in this. Remember, talent isn't just about offense, it's about defense too. More talented defensemen means less scoring. More defensively talented forwards means less scoring. What some people attribute to a watered-down talent base I attribute to the opposite.
There's more video than ever before too. So more scouting, more preparation, etc. The health and workout regimen that every team has, for every player. Pure talent alone doesn't go as far as it used to.

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12-30-2012, 11:51 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Just to continue on that particular point... For many fans, of a variety of sports and activities that are available, it must also come down to economics in how much attention they can dedicate to one or the other sport, especially in economic tough times.


In general, you've given good responses to most of the points that I brought up. However, I'd still have to think that all of those elements still do at least in a small part play a role in how much attention hockey might get in a southern market compared to a northern market. It's not that the fans care less, but that they are generally at least somewhat fewer, and there are numerous other at least potential distractions that could keep hockey from getting as much attention as it could get elsewhere.
Thanks. Economics is a valid point, especially here where we're ranked as being in one of the worst hit economic areas. I would go to far more Rays games if I didn't have season tickets to the Lightning. I'd like to think that really only impacts season ticket holders, however, as it's easier for non-STHs to spread their entertainment dollar around.

I'd love to have season tickets for both, but my Bolts tickets take up about 99% of my entertainment budget. I go to as many Rays games as I can. The Bucs - no, thanks. I don't even go to those games if the tickets are free.

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12-30-2012, 12:29 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Two other things, one that relates to point two. First, the clogging of the middle of the ice in the defensive zone. I always get shouted down about this, but I really think the league needs an illegal defense rule similar to the NBA. You can only spend so much time in a certain box in front of the net (modified to: if you are a forward).

Second, I think the increase in overall talent in the league has played a huge role in this. Remember, talent isn't just about offense, it's about defense too. More talented defensemen means less scoring. More defensively talented forwards means less scoring. What some people attribute to a watered-down talent base I attribute to the opposite.
Your suggestion is similar to something I've been putting forward for a while: If a team goes into the trap it's a 2 minute bench minor. I took quite a bit of flack for it because there's a very vocal minority that actually dislikes scoring, has nothing but disdain for hockey in the '80s, that actually wants hockey to be like soccer with and endless series of 2-1 games. I also got some heat from people who do NOT like anyone tinkering with the rules in any way shape or form.....I presume they're still upset about the legalization of the forward pass and the red line being put in shortly thereafter.

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12-30-2012, 12:33 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Two other things, one that relates to point two. First, the clogging of the middle of the ice in the defensive zone. I always get shouted down about this, but I really think the league needs an illegal defense rule similar to the NBA. You can only spend so much time in a certain box in front of the net (modified to: if you are a forward).

Second, I think the increase in overall talent in the league has played a huge role in this. Remember, talent isn't just about offense, it's about defense too. More talented defensemen means less scoring. More defensively talented forwards means less scoring. What some people attribute to a watered-down talent base I attribute to the opposite.
Something that bothers me is when some pundits talk about how 'diluted' the league is now compared to previous eras, and some hyperbole about how terrible or unwatchable the game is because of it. Sometimes used as an argument for contraction. I disagree. The number of quality players being produced domestically (particularly in the States) and from overseas nowadays is astounding. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, and more skilled than ever, IMHO. If you could time-warp an average team from today into the 90's they would be an SC contender.

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12-30-2012, 01:03 PM
  #241
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Montreal and the NY Rangers are still in the NHL in this scenario. Although, I think Montreal could handle a WHL team along with the Habs.

While I'm still pissed at the NHL for this lockout, the new WHL would have the following rule changes:
- Olympic size ice
Don't like the big ice, too easy for guys to hide. Then again, I like the physical side of the game above all.
- Hybrid icing
No complaints here. I kinda like hybrid icing
- Goals CAN be kicked in
Bad idea. The whole reason goals can't be kicked in is to prevent guys from getting cut by skate blades
- Penalty shots are worth TWO points. If it is missed or saved, a power play follows.
Don't like the first part, but I like the power play idea.
- Goals scored from beyond the blue line are worth two points.
Why bother? Those goals are so rare, especially since you can't have a screen on the goalie when you take the shot
- Five men in the neutral zone without the puck is ruled an illegal defense.
Maybe put it on a time limit?
- Goalies who play puck outside an enlarged crease CAN be checked.
You'll have to change goalie equipment
- There is NO goaltender interference outside the enlarged crease.
See above
- OT is 4v4. Second OT is 3v3. And THEN the shootout.
I would be cool with this
- Standings are 3 points for win, 2 for OT/SO win, 1 for OT/SO loss, 0 for regulation loss.
I've been clamoring for this for a while
My input is bolded

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12-30-2012, 01:57 PM
  #242
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I think THIS list trumps both of the pro sports feasibility studies I mentioned earlier in this thread:
http://www.tvb.org/media/file/TVB_Ma...DMA_Ranks2.pdf

I enthusiastically encourage anyone making who says "this city doesn't deserve a team" or "this city deserves a team" check this list first and consider both studies - along with the market's history of supporting hockey.


Last edited by leesmith: 12-30-2012 at 02:06 PM.
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12-30-2012, 02:07 PM
  #243
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My input is bolded
Let's amend the kicking in a goal idea to say the skate blade must remain on the ice.

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12-30-2012, 02:12 PM
  #244
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32 if you put them in cities that actually watch hockey.

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12-30-2012, 02:17 PM
  #245
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My preference is 20 but I don't share the league's goals.

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12-30-2012, 02:46 PM
  #246
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Let's amend the kicking in a goal idea to say the skate blade must remain on the ice.
Nah. Let's not even allow it and keep things simple.

As a goaltender or any prone player involved in a puck scramble for that matter, you don't want to be trying to cover a puck with a glove or your body and have a bunch of people wearing skates kicking at it.

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12-30-2012, 02:54 PM
  #247
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Contract another 4 teams (down to 20)? That's another 4 teams for my rival league. I'll not talk about this further because the point has been made. Contraction is too costly, deals a blow to the image of the NHL, and when combined with the growth of pro hockey in Europe and Russia, opens the door for direct competition.


Last edited by leesmith: 12-30-2012 at 03:01 PM.
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12-30-2012, 02:57 PM
  #248
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Let's amend the kicking in a goal idea to say the skate blade must remain on the ice.
Repeating the same offer doesn't make it any better. Is that you NHLPA/NHL?

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12-30-2012, 03:11 PM
  #249
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Repeating the same offer doesn't make it any better. Is that you NHLPA/NHL?
Weird. I have no idea how that duplicate post showed up. Funny remark though.

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12-30-2012, 04:55 PM
  #250
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Weird. I have no idea how that duplicate post showed up. Funny remark though.
Yeah I'm just ribbing you. No slight intended.

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