HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Realistically....How many teams should be in the NHL?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-01-2013, 09:35 PM
  #401
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintick33 View Post
The problem isn't that Lexus is selling gussied up Camrys, it's that what the Leafs are doing is the equivalent of slapping a Lexus label on a used Yugo.
Again you dont get to make proclamations about value when the market disagrees with you.
Leafs tickets are expensive because leafs fans are willing to pay that. You might argue that it is not fair that the leafs print money in good times and bad while teams that you think are better run struggle to make payroll. I agree its not fair, but its not supposed to be fair.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:40 PM
  #402
Hero
Buffy is Back
 
Hero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,293
vCash: 500
After seeing the last Forbes magazine, probably 24 teams or so.

Hero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:40 PM
  #403
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
There is nothing wrong with trying to grow the game, there is something very wrong with simply throwing more money at a poor decision in order to save face. That's not bashing anyone, its simple economics.

Yes the economy is bad, its bad everywhere but the rags and flyers do OK. There will as always be rationalizations for why things did not go as planned. How many can people invoke before they have to wonder whether the business could prosper even if it were perfectly run.
It's not a "poor decision" if the market is in fact growing.

And didn't you read the last part of what I said.... "and not simply being conservative and looking backwards and comparing developing markets like Nashville with long-established NHL markets."

MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:50 PM
  #404
Mightygoose
Registered User
 
Mightygoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ajax, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,052
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
It's been speculated for quite some time as long as the Leafs don't sign or draft top players the league lets the team owners keep their gold mine. Crap look at the crying now about rev sharing, if the Leafs were good and went deep into the playoffs every year. Heck they'd be forced to pay the entire Yotes payroll every year.


Couldn't agree more. Have the Leafs and Yotes meeting in the Stanley Cup Finals and it will be the Braley Bowl....NHL style

Mightygoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:58 PM
  #405
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
It's not a "poor decision" if the market is in fact growing.

And didn't you read the last part of what I said.... "and not simply being conservative and looking backwards and comparing developing markets like Nashville with long-established NHL markets."
Growth per se is insufficient. If it takes 50 years to get these markets to be self supporting, what is the anticipated time frame for ROI? The habs and the leafs should sign checks for the next 60 years, for what purpose?

When asg bailed what did this do to their market ?, it annihilated it. The team had to go because the market for the thrashers was gone. If the thrash said to the haves, build us a stadium to grow the game, they would get laughed at. There are some things ( including many that the team cannot control ) that poisons the market. At this tipping point throwing more money at an unfixable problem is lunacy.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:02 PM
  #406
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
Couldn't agree more. Have the Leafs and Yotes meeting in the Stanley Cup Finals and it will be the Braley Bowl....NHL style
Anyone want to guess how much the leafs would make if they won the cup ?

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:05 PM
  #407
smackdaddy
Hall-RNH-Eberle
 
smackdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,180
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Again you dont get to make proclamations about value when the market disagrees with you.
Leafs tickets are expensive because leafs fans are willing to pay that. You might argue that it is not fair that the leafs print money in good times and bad while teams that you think are better run struggle to make payroll. I agree its not fair, but its not supposed to be fair.
I don't believe this at all. I believe the Leafs price tickets at that price to purposely price out the average fan and attract the businesses and corporations, not because the average fan is willing to pay it.

Personally, I wouldn't support a business that didn't want my business and purposefully shoved me aside but that's just me. If you're fine with the pricing and their methods more power to you. But don't think for a second that Leaf ticket prices are as high as they are because of the demand of the average fan. There will always be people who'll pay those prices, definitely, but you know saying, "a fool and his money...".

smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:17 PM
  #408
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I don't believe this at all. I believe the Leafs price tickets at that price to purposely price out the average fan and attract the businesses and corporations, not because the average fan is willing to pay it.

Personally, I wouldn't support a business that didn't want my business and purposefully shoved me aside but that's just me. If you're fine with the pricing and their methods more power to you. But don't think for a second that Leaf ticket prices are as high as they are because of the demand of the average fan. There will always be people who'll pay those prices, definitely, but you know saying, "a fool and his money...".
Bell and rogers are publically traded. They dont care who sits in the seat as long as they are paying the highest price for it. As a fan it might suck if the arena was filled with suits at prices that the average fan could not match. In many places this is not a sustainable business plan, in toronto it looks like it is. I can see that in markets with limited demand you might want to lower the price to entice people to come and hope thatnthe power of hockey converts them into a fan who will return. toronto is not a market with limited demand, they cant fill demand now, why would they undercut themselves?

people spend money all the time in things I wouldnt. That does not make them suckers, it makes them different.

Look at the secondary ticket market,as expensive as the tickets are I think they could be priced higher with minimal effect on demand.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:47 PM
  #409
stillwaiting
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 49
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I like the way you think. Expand in Canada and maximizes the strength of the NHL via the healthy remaining markets.
my 45 years of watching the NHL in St. Louis tells me to tell you to..... ah, just go back and read hockey history - in depth! from about 1930 on. You might learn something !

stillwaiting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:48 PM
  #410
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
I think Daly said they were incorrect I could be wrong though. Still the media has distorted numbers to push their agenda
No, in fact the league never commented on them -- although they were presented in the Globe & Mail, perhaps Canada's most influential newspaper, as leaked NHL documents.

MAROONSRoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 11:03 PM
  #411
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Would have to be something like Canadian broadcast dollars, because they certainly can't fill the arenas any more than they already do, of course other than doing it for more games.

Still can't blame fans in most cities for not spending or not spending top $ if their team isn't being competitive. Being competitive is normally a significant part of that "supply and demand" equation.
Merchandise and the playoff game revenues would be off the charts. They have been waiting a long time, fail to make the playoff for 8 years and make 80 million. They win the cup I have no idea how much they would clear. 125 million?

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 04:21 AM
  #412
smackdaddy
Hall-RNH-Eberle
 
smackdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,180
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Bell and rogers are publically traded. They dont care who sits in the seat as long as they are paying the highest price for it. As a fan it might suck if the arena was filled with suits at prices that the average fan could not match. In many places this is not a sustainable business plan, in toronto it looks like it is. I can see that in markets with limited demand you might want to lower the price to entice people to come and hope thatnthe power of hockey converts them into a fan who will return. toronto is not a market with limited demand, they cant fill demand now, why would they undercut themselves?

people spend money all the time in things I wouldnt. That does not make them suckers, it makes them different.

Look at the secondary ticket market,as expensive as the tickets are I think they could be priced higher with minimal effect on demand.
My point was Leaf tickets aren't priced for the fans in mind, and haven't been for a long time. I'm disagreeing with your statement that Leaf tickets are expensive because that's what fans will pay, not about Bell's business model.

Leaf ticket pricing has nothing to do with the fans and everything to do with their corporate support.

smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 07:33 AM
  #413
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
My point was Leaf tickets aren't priced for the fans in mind, and haven't been for a long time. I'm disagreeing with your statement that Leaf tickets are expensive because that's what fans will pay, not about Bell's business model.

Leaf ticket pricing has nothing to do with the fans and everything to do with their corporate support.
What's the alternative? Toronto selling tickets at a loss so the average fan can go? That makes no sense.

Having huge demand means that the team is largely insulated from dips or work stoppages, it also means that in good times, tickets are going to be more expensive. Are you saying that the suits that drive up the cost aren't fans?

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 08:02 AM
  #414
heilongjetsfan
Registered User
 
heilongjetsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Peg City!
Country: Canada
Posts: 729
vCash: 758
Forty!

yeah, you read that right. I've been daydreaming of a 40 team NHL for a few years now. In my mind, it goes something like this:

-Contract nothing.
-Move nobody.
-New teams in Hartford, Quebec, Moncton/Fredericton (add their population, Fredricton, Halifax and all of PEI and you actually get a decent sized fanbase), Toronto2 (or Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo).
Add any 6 of the following: Seattle, Portland, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Oklahoma City, Houston, Kansas City, Indianapolis. There's some I'm forgetting, but which cities is kind of beside the point atm.

What we're shooting for here is an NHL1 and NHL2. A 24 team league and a 16. The cup winner from NHL2 gets a pass into NHL1 then a few of the top NHL2 teams play against the basement teams in NHL1 in a relegation/promotion tournament.

NHL2 operates with a lower cap than NHL1, let's say 70%. Whether that's a 30% pay cut for each player on the team, or a matter of a team needing to shed players to stay under the line is a matter for discussion as well, both ways creating intriguing scenarios. One way offers real incentive to all players on the team (especially non-playoff teams) to play as hard as they can. The other way would set us up for lots more offseason movement, which most of us seem to find as entertaining as hockey itself.

heilongjetsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 08:18 AM
  #415
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by heilongjetsfan View Post
yeah, you read that right. I've been daydreaming of a 40 team NHL for a few years now. In my mind, it goes something like this:

-Contract nothing.
-Move nobody.
-New teams in Hartford, Quebec, Moncton/Fredericton (add their population, Fredricton, Halifax and all of PEI and you actually get a decent sized fanbase), Toronto2 (or Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo).
Add any 6 of the following: Seattle, Portland, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Oklahoma City, Houston, Kansas City, Indianapolis. There's some I'm forgetting, but which cities is kind of beside the point atm.

What we're shooting for here is an NHL1 and NHL2. A 24 team league and a 16. The cup winner from NHL2 gets a pass into NHL1 then a few of the top NHL2 teams play against the basement teams in NHL1 in a relegation/promotion tournament.

NHL2 operates with a lower cap than NHL1, let's say 70%. Whether that's a 30% pay cut for each player on the team, or a matter of a team needing to shed players to stay under the line is a matter for discussion as well, both ways creating intriguing scenarios. One way offers real incentive to all players on the team (especially non-playoff teams) to play as hard as they can. The other way would set us up for lots more offseason movement, which most of us seem to find as entertaining as hockey itself.
Well that is one way to make phoenix look comparatively more of a success. Your scenario would be a nightmare.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 08:27 AM
  #416
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 13,826
vCash: 500
Right now, based on what we know, it seems like 26-28 teams would be best for the league, but it seems like the league would like to have 32 teams...if they can sign a 10 yr CBA and work with some of the weaker markets, they might be able to pull off a 32 team league...

BLONG7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 09:13 AM
  #417
Fidel Astro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,324
vCash: 500
I wish the relegation/promotion system would work in the NHL. I guess the main problem is that most AHL cities don't have NHL-ready arenas, and some of the poorest-performing NHL teams would utterly fail if demoted to the minor leagues.

It would be perfect, though. Teams on the verge of relegation would have a lot higher stakes, and I think there'd be way more incentive for the Division 1 teams to perform (and for their fans to give a ****) if there was the possibility of getting bumped up to Premier (or whatever they'd call it).

Fans of teams like the Coyotes like to suggest that there is, in fact, a fanbase down there, as evidenced by their playoff support. If every game carried similar significance due to the threat of relegation, maybe their regular season attendance would increase.

I fully understand why it wouldn't work, but I wish it would. There'd be a hell of a lot more teams in contention, which would mean a lot of dyed-in-the-wool hockey towns would get a shot at the big leagues, and expanding into non-traditional markets wouldn't be as much as a gamble.

A team could hang out in the minors for years while interest in the sport developed in the region, and then eventually get moved up to the top league. I would much prefer that to the current system where NHL hockey suddenly gets dumped into completely inappropriate locations where the sport is an unfamiliar novelty.

Fidel Astro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 10:07 AM
  #418
Butch 19
King me
 
Butch 19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Geographical Oddity
Country: United States
Posts: 10,066
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Anyone want to guess how much the leafs would make if they won the cup ?
Fans of 29 (or even all 30) teams couldn't care less about this hypothetical.

What does it matter? - to anything?

Butch 19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 10:12 AM
  #419
NJDevils7
Registered User
 
NJDevils7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 1,473
vCash: 500
30. Set up like the English Premier League. The 3 lowest teams in the standings get relegated to the AHL. The 3 top teams in the AHL get promoted to the NHL.

Reasoning: Obviously this would eliminate tanking. It would take away the possibility of meaningless games. Some of the best EPL games to watch are towards the end of the season when 2 smaller market teams near the bottom of the standings are playing for their right to stay in the league. In addition, imagine the bandwagon fans that would start rooting for nearby AHL teams if they were doing good and had a chance to be in the NHL.


Edit: Fidel Astro just explained this in depth

NJDevils7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 10:19 AM
  #420
NJDevils7
Registered User
 
NJDevils7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 1,473
vCash: 500
30. Set up like the English Premier League. The 3 lowest teams in the standings get relegated to the AHL. The 3 top teams in the AHL get promoted to the NHL.

Reasoning: Obviously this would eliminate tanking. It would take away the possibility of meaningless games. Some of the best EPL games to watch are towards the end of the season when 2 smaller market teams near the bottom of the standings are playing for their right to stay in the league. In addition, imagine the bandwagon fans that would start rooting for nearby AHL teams if they were doing good and had a chance to be in the NHL.

NJDevils7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 10:24 AM
  #421
No Fun Shogun
Global Moderator
34-38-61-10-13-15
 
No Fun Shogun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Shogunate of Nofunia
Country: Fiji
Posts: 35,165
vCash: 5113
Fat chance getting owners of multimillion dollar franchises to agree to go from a North American franchise system to a European-styled promotion/relegation system. Plus, there are too many dissimilarities between European soccer and American sports to make a change feasible, not the least of which is history. By and large, major league teams are in large cities and minor league teams are in small cities. In sports like the NHL that are gate-driven, the expectations for financial success for a small market team would create a permanent underclass that has no hopes but get promoted every few years only to get immediately relegated once they compete with the big boys. There are obviously exceptions, like Houston and Chicago (really Rosemont, but whatever), but that's the case for a lot of teams.

Add to that the fact that English soccer, for instance, tends to have multiple teams competing at different levels within the same cities, and you have room for a swell of local support to try to rally around a recently promoted team. Not so much if a market like Peoria or Syracuse suddenly saw themselves in the NHL.

Maybe in the NFL it could work, with its huge national TV revenues, but it'd never fly in the NHL or NBA, both of which have large gate requirements, or even in MLB, with many teams seeing their greatest profits from massive local TV deals.

Plus, let's not forget that the promotion and relegation system might be viewed as a detriment by many as well. I'm sure that more than a few EPL clubs would love to see them adopt the franchise model we have over here given the gap that's formed between the top tier and the second tier economically.

Finally, you need to remember that the major/minor league system is wholly different than the pyramid systems that soccer has in other countries. There is a significantly greater gap between an NHL team and an AHL team or a MLB team and a AAA team than there is between a Premier League team and a Football Championship team from basic talent standards, even when looking at the top of the lower-tier to the bottom of the highest-tier. North American minor leagues are about development of talent, and as such when players are judged to be good enough they get brought up and when players are bad enough they get sent down (if they can, that is). Finances and talent alone would make it impossible for even the best AHL teams to compete with the NHL, short-term or long-term.

No Fun Shogun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 10:42 AM
  #422
txpd
Registered User
 
txpd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 44,056
vCash: 500
you realize that a relegated nhl team would in short order be worse than most actual ahl teams. those ahl teams get their best players from nhl developement agreements.

are you sure you want ahl teams with small buildings and small markets in the nhl? there are so many reasons why relegation is a non starter

portland maine? bridgeport conn? springfield mass? meanwhile montreal gets relegated out of the nhl. with that out the window goes all the original 6 rivalry games.

of course the ahl teams would go bankrupt trying to meet the salary floor.


Last edited by txpd: 01-02-2013 at 10:49 AM.
txpd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 10:50 AM
  #423
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Fans of 29 (or even all 30) teams couldn't care less about this hypothetical.

What does it matter? - to anything?
Because teams are already bellyaching about how unfair it is that after the leafs failed to make the playoffs they still turned an 80 million profit. If they won the cup their revenues ( and the revenues of the league go up). A lot of small market fans seem to rejoice in the leafs on ice problems saying that Toronto fans are suckers to support a poorly run team. That their teams are more relevant than the leafs because of on ice performance. If the leafs won the cup the difference in revenue would go from problematic, to obscene.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 11:08 AM
  #424
atomic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 287
vCash: 500
The league could certainly handle 40 teams. We could support one here in Baltimore. Hershey draws close to 10,000 fans for AHL they could probably support an NHL team. You could add second teams in Toronto and Montreal. Add teams in Seattle, San Diego, Kansas City, Portland, Milwaukee, Quebec City, Hartford, Providence.

atomic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2013, 11:27 AM
  #425
Fidel Astro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
you realize that a relegated nhl team would in short order be worse than most actual ahl teams. those ahl teams get their best players from nhl developement agreements.
In this hypothetical situation, the NHL/AHL relationship would obviously need to change.

Quote:
are you sure you want ahl teams with small buildings and small markets in the nhl? there are so many reasons why relegation is a non starter
Oh, for sure. It's not going to happen in our lifetimes. It would make things a lot more interesting, though.

Quote:
portland maine? bridgeport conn? springfield mass? meanwhile montreal gets relegated out of the nhl. with that out the window goes all the original 6 rivalry games.
Well, think about how devastating that would be for Habs fans. It might be enough to force the team to get its **** together. There'd be massive public pressure, and no one would be just OK with a mediocre team year after year. Leafs fans too. Hell, I'm a Jets fan, and I realize my team would be definitely skirting relegation as well.

I just think with the historic teams (i.e. Habs, Leafs) the threat of relegation would completely put an end to complacency on anyone's part. In that kind of system, missing the playoffs wouldn't be an "aw, shucks, we missed 'em again" situation. It would be far more serious.

...and yeah, if a team from a smaller city is competitive and can be successful, why not? Yes, they have smaller arenas, but I think we've proven here in Winnipeg that a smaller arena isn't necessarily a bad thing if fans are willing to pay higher ticket prices. There are plenty of hockey-mad towns who have been overlooked by the NHL but would empty their wallets for a chance to see NHL hockey 40 nights a year.

To me, that seems like a better idea than having a team like Phoenix in the NHL, where no one bothers to show up even though the tickets are dirt cheap. Giant, empty arena making no money vs. completely sold-out arena packed with fans making a ton of cash. Which one sounds better?

...and as others have mentioned, teams like Hershey in the AHL draw 10,000+ on a regular basis. Here in Winnipeg, the Moose had very high attendance for a minor league team as well, and that's in a small market with half the city viewing the AHL as a poor substitute for the "real thing."

It could definitely work, but I can't see it actually happening. It might actually be nice for some of the "big" teams to be relegated and forced to try out a bit of modesty for a change.

Fidel Astro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:18 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.