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Realistically....How many teams should be in the NHL?

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01-06-2013, 01:15 PM
  #476
Dado
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
But that, of course, is a different argument than what the other poster was making.
No, it's not.

The system that puts/keeps teams in bad locations is also responsible for not allowing teams in good locations. Two sides of the same coin - deal with one issue, and you've dealt with both issues.

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01-06-2013, 01:20 PM
  #477
Morgoth Bauglir
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No, it's not.

The system that puts/keeps teams in bad locations is also responsible for not allowing teams in good locations. Two sides of the same coin - deal with one issue, and you've dealt with both issues.
His argument was that he pays high ticket prices so his team can subsidize weak markets so YES, it IS a different argument entirely.

If Phoenix, Columbus, the Islanders, or any other team you could name (or all of them) disappeared his ticket prices would not go down one shiny penny. Because those teams' existence has no bearing on the demand for tickets in his market. Ticket demand within a market is what drives ticket prices. NOT what's going on in other markets.

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01-06-2013, 01:25 PM
  #478
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Completely agree. And set up B and C leagues for development of both players and management. Promotion/relegation between them - franchise success becoming completely dependent on on-ice success (or at least lack of failure).
more relegation talk...? We all know this is IMPOSSIBLE in any NA sport.

Why does it consistently get mentioned?

You want relegation? go watch soccer.

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01-06-2013, 01:27 PM
  #479
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You want relegation? go watch soccer.
But I do... :V

It's unfortunate that there's such a pig-headed resistance to the system in NA. Sports leagues could really do with a little more natural selection.

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01-06-2013, 01:37 PM
  #480
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But I do... :V

It's unfortunate that there's such a pig-headed resistance to the system in NA. Sports leagues could really do with a little more natural selection.
Why do we in North America need to parrot everything they do in Europe? They have their sports culture, we have ours and vive le difference. I personally don't care for soccer and would rather the sports leagues that I follow didn't ape soccer leagues.

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01-06-2013, 01:54 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
His argument was that he pays high ticket prices so his team can subsidize weak markets so YES, it IS a different argument entirely.

If Phoenix, Columbus, the Islanders, or any other team you could name (or all of them) disappeared his ticket prices would not go down one shiny penny. Because those teams' existence has no bearing on the demand for tickets in his market. Ticket demand within a market is what drives ticket prices. NOT what's going on in other markets.
Agreed another team in Toronto or 2 more for that matter will be more of the same those teams would just charge close to what the Leafs do. The Leafs would still be the main attraction for 10 years minumum. It's going to take at least 1/3 of a billion dollars to get a team in to that region and an owner will try to make his money back. Any one dreaming of their ticket prices going down by cutting or moving 10 or so teams is doing that dreaming.

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01-06-2013, 01:59 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir View Post
But I do... :V

It's unfortunate that there's such a pig-headed resistance to the system in NA. Sports leagues could really do with a little more natural selection.
this would never work. When was the last time someone watched one of the minor league games from England. Also the big money teams never get regulated because they buy the players. That's why we have the minor leagues and the draft.

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01-06-2013, 02:01 PM
  #483
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wonder from the pro relegation poster how the relegated nhl team pays its nhl contract commitments on ahl income? also wondering how the promoted ahl team survives the nhl expenses required on its ahl structure?

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01-06-2013, 02:08 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
Each NFL team only plays 16 games. They don't have to worry about selling out the stadium. Wayne Gretzky breaks all NHL scoring records but even though you pay $5,000 a year for season tickets you can't see him because you're in the wring conference.
Oh, I thought it was because he retired.

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And who are you to decide that I have to pay another $50 or $100 per seat per game so your undeserving city can have a hockey team?
No one pays an additional $50-100 per seat per game because of where teams are located. That's absolutely asinine.

However, let's assume that "things changed". Here are the possibilities, with probable outcomes.

1) A bunch of "undeserving" teams, undoubtedly those who designation has been decreed by a group of people who declare themselves to be experts, move to "deserving" cities. This causes an increase in HRR across the board. With there being a linked system between HRR and salaries, all of the "deserving" cities hike ticket prices in order to offset the increase in costs.

2) A bunch of "undeserving" teams cease to exist. In order to contract teams, they would need to be purchased directly by the league, whose funding for this operation would come from other teams. In order to fund that, ticket prices would increase to offset that cost.

3) A bunch of "undeserving" teams cease to exist, out of the benevolence of the owners of said teams (no purchase necessary). With those rosters dispersed among the rest of the league, demand spikes, causing an increase in ticket prices among the "deserving" in order to extract the most money from the public.

No no, your idea of reality is better though.

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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
No, it's not.

The system that puts/keeps teams in bad locations is also responsible for not allowing teams in good locations. Two sides of the same coin - deal with one issue, and you've dealt with both issues.
By "the system", you mean "when a deep-pocketed owner is able to convince the rest of the NHL that he can handle the myriad of costs associated with operating a team long-term", right? To be clear, there isn't a team in certain areas for reasons related to that, and there are teams in certain areas for reasons related to that.

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01-06-2013, 02:40 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
this would never work. When was the last time someone watched one of the minor league games from England. Also the big money teams never get regulated because they buy the players. That's why we have the minor leagues and the draft.
The Championship is a second-tier league and its the 4th-most watched soccer league in the world.

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01-06-2013, 02:48 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
wonder from the pro relegation poster how the relegated nhl team pays its nhl contract commitments on ahl income? also wondering how the promoted ahl team survives the nhl expenses required on its ahl structure?
Why is there always this insistent belief that a second tier in a promotion/relegation system has to involve be the AHL in the first place? Everybody has such a hard-on for expansion and growth of the game anyway, why not just go all out and make a 38 or 40-team 2-tier system that keeps the AHL separate as a farm league? The teams that can afford to be big spenders can, those that can't or don't want to play in a tier where the competition remains marginally equal and the expenditures are less dramatic.


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01-06-2013, 02:53 PM
  #487
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir View Post
Why is there always this insistent belief that a second tier in a promotion/relegation system has to be the AHL in the first place?
Because that's the next league down from the NHL. Bottom-line is, you're either a major-league team or you are NOT a major-league team. There is no "sorta a major-league" team. You either are or you aren't.

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01-06-2013, 02:57 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Because that's the next league down from the NHL. Bottom-line is, you're either a major-league team or you are NOT a major-league team. There is no "sorta a major-league" team. You either are or you aren't.
So what? Systems change. The only reason the Premier League exists is because 20 teams got together and literally just decided to make it so.

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01-06-2013, 03:03 PM
  #489
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir View Post
So what? Systems change. The only reason the Premier League exists is because 20 teams got together and literally just decided to make it so.
Newsflash: North American sports leagues are single entities with constituent members. They are NOT a bunch of mercenary entities that hang out together when convenient and go wherever when it's not convenient. Please stop trying to "soccerize" our sports thank you very much. If you like soccer that's great, enjoy, more power to you. You have no need to turn other sports into soccer.

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01-06-2013, 03:21 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
more relegation talk...? We all know this is IMPOSSIBLE in any NA sport.

Why does it consistently get mentioned?

You want relegation? go watch soccer.
Relegation works in soccer only because in each league there are a handful of elite teams that generate almost all of the league's TV revenues. These teams will never be relegated and are perennial qualifiers in the UEFA Champions League. Football (soccer) has competitive balance at the international level, not so much within the leagues.

Relegation doesn't really solve any problem for the NHL. Fans (of bottom end teams) don't want it. Owners don't want it. Players don't want it. Sponsors don't want it.


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01-06-2013, 03:44 PM
  #491
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Relegation is neither a soccer thing nor a european thing. It is used all over the planet, for all manner of sport.

If you don't like it, don't support it. We all have that right. But those of us who believe sport is supposed to be about all-out competition and not the babying and coddling of losers will continue to push for it.

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01-06-2013, 03:55 PM
  #492
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Relegation is neither a soccer thing nor a european thing. It is used all over the planet, for all manner of sport.

If you don't like it, don't support it. We all have that right. But those of us who believe sport is supposed to be about all-out competition and not the babying and coddling of losers will continue to push for it.
Competition = something that happens on the field/ice for the entertainment of the fans. Competition does NOT = something that happens within a corporate entity where you're trying to put your business partners out of business.

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01-06-2013, 04:43 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Relegation is neither a soccer thing nor a european thing. It is used all over the planet, for all manner of sport.

If you don't like it, don't support it. We all have that right. But those of us who believe sport is supposed to be about all-out competition and not the babying and coddling of losers will continue to push for it.
So you think there is competition in the Premier League? Only 5 teams have won the championship in the last 20 years.

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01-06-2013, 04:44 PM
  #494
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Expansion announcement next summer, for the 2015-16 Season. Open for Expansion bids, cities to be announced later.
Yes/No?

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01-06-2013, 06:45 PM
  #495
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Expansion announcement next summer, for the 2015-16 Season. Open for Expansion bids, cities to be announced later.
Yes/No?
I say yes, both as "I want it to happen" and "I honestly believe it will happen".

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01-06-2013, 09:45 PM
  #496
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I say yes, both as "I want it to happen" and "I honestly believe it will happen".
Who we thinking? Seattle and QC? Maybe KC instead of Seattle?

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01-06-2013, 09:47 PM
  #497
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Who we thinking? Seattle and QC? Maybe KC instead of Seattle?
Most likely scenario: Phoenix moves and two expansion franchises granted with Seattle, Quebec, and Greater Toronto being the new cities.

To my mind there's no excuse for Quebec not having a team and Seattle is the best "fresh" market. Toronto, I think, is need to light a fire under the Leafs.

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01-06-2013, 10:00 PM
  #498
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Who we thinking? Seattle and QC? Maybe KC instead of Seattle?
I can see two Canadian cities, and even with me supporting it, 90% of this board still thinking that I'm anti-Canadian.

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01-06-2013, 10:00 PM
  #499
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If Toronto gets a second team before Hamilton gets a team I'll throw a chair.

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01-06-2013, 10:16 PM
  #500
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If Toronto gets a second team before Hamilton gets a team I'll throw a chair.
You know what they say...if Hamilton gets an NHL team, Toronto will want one too.


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