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If the NHL comes back, there has to be a big expansion.

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01-02-2013, 12:49 AM
  #126
DuklaNation
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Who's going to pay for Columbus to break the new lease that runs through 2039, while also finding a way to make whole the local government that just bought Nationwide Arena in a deal that was conditional upon the lease anyway?

That'd run a good $250 million right there...that's not even including the cost of the team or any of the other residual costs. It'd run a good $500 million or more to just pack up Columbus and move them.
Please refer to this article:

http://bloguin.com/puckdrunklove/201...-columbus.html

"Now, itís worth noting that thereís a way for the Jackets to skip town before 2039 ó they just have pay $39 million in damages. And while $39 million isnít peanuts, if Columbus keeps hemorrhaging money, it might become a price worth paying to move to a more profitable market."

Your $250m figure is the 'estimated' operating costs of the arena up to 2039 which isnt a number that should be used.

This is the 2nd time that within 2 minutes someone's 'analysis' can easily be proven incorrect with basic research.

In the future, can posters please backup their 'numbers' with actual facts?

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01-02-2013, 01:02 AM
  #127
Mayor Bee
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Please refer to this article:

http://bloguin.com/puckdrunklove/201...-columbus.html

"Now, itís worth noting that thereís a way for the Jackets to skip town before 2039 ó they just have pay $39 million in damages. And while $39 million isnít peanuts, if Columbus keeps hemorrhaging money, it might become a price worth paying to move to a more profitable market."

Your $250m figure is the 'estimated' operating costs of the arena up to 2039 which isnt a number that should be used.

This is the 2nd time that within 2 minutes someone's 'analysis' can easily be proven incorrect with basic research.

In the future, can posters please backup their 'numbers' with actual facts?
The assumption is that that's all there is to it. There's an entire business district in the immediate area that would be devastated, which in itself would trigger massive waves of lawsuits. There's parking, there's bonds for various improvements projects...it's hardly just as simple as "$39 million in damages".

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01-02-2013, 01:05 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Who's going to pay for Columbus to break the new lease that runs through 2039, while also finding a way to make whole the local government that just bought Nationwide Arena in a deal that was conditional upon the lease anyway?

That'd run a good $250 million right there...that's not even including the cost of the team or any of the other residual costs. It'd run a good $500 million or more to just pack up Columbus and move them.
OK, well, I am trying to get it 16 Eastern Time Zone teams in the "Prince of Wales," and I think Quebec should have a franchise if they expand two teams. What do you think is more realistic?

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01-02-2013, 01:10 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
The assumption is that that's all there is to it. There's an entire business district in the immediate area that would be devastated, which in itself would trigger massive waves of lawsuits. There's parking, there's bonds for various improvements projects...it's hardly just as simple as "$39 million in damages".

Then why say that the team could bolt for 39 million? Im sure there could be lawsuits, the question is would they win. I dont see how the immediate area could sue for the jackets exercising their right to get out of their lease, irrespective of how devestated they would be if they left.

Say a 160 for the team and 40 to exercise an out. Thats 200 million. Not chump change for sure but still doable wouldnt you say?

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01-02-2013, 01:50 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Then why say that the team could bolt for 39 million? Im sure there could be lawsuits, the question is would they win. I dont see how the immediate area could sue for the jackets exercising their right to get out of their lease, irrespective of how devestated they would be if they left.

Say a 160 for the team and 40 to exercise an out. Thats 200 million. Not chump change for sure but still doable wouldnt you say?
Are the terms of the lease public? Let's go to the lease and find the out clause

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01-02-2013, 01:57 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Are the terms of the lease public? Let's go to the lease and find the out clause
I presume that since the deal is being financed by casino money it would likely be.

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01-02-2013, 04:23 AM
  #132
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Would we agree that, if going to 32 teams, we should have 16 EST teams in one conference and 16 in the other?

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01-02-2013, 04:48 AM
  #133
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The LAST thing the NHL needs is a MORE watered down product.

If there are to be new cities in the league, those teams HAVE to come from the lesser performing cities.

I am actually shocked to see so much advocating for more teams. I don't get that at all.

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01-02-2013, 06:40 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Squantosawuss View Post
The LAST thing the NHL needs is a MORE watered down product.

If there are to be new cities in the league, those teams HAVE to come from the lesser performing cities.

I am actually shocked to see so much advocating for more teams. I don't get that at all.
Maybe because the NHLs talent comes from a global source to global fans now. Its not just 10 regions in north america supplying a few teams anymore.

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01-02-2013, 09:07 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
What is 32 teams to prove? More Proof that NHL is a follower? NHL needs to lead. 36 or 40 teams. If we have to do this, then cover every part of the map.
How can you be a leader when no one is willing to follow?

You have, at most, four prospective franchise owners right now. The Markham venture could go down the porcelain convenience in January and leave you with three. Paul Allen would have to be involved in some capacity in Portland, and he has said before that he isn't interested in the NHL, so that leaves Quebec and Seattle. We've only been talking about those cities for, what, two years now?

Expansion is not an overnight process. If you don't have a quality owner, a building, and a good-sized city (or a city with disproportionately large demand), you can't just throw a team someplace and expect it to stick. You'll create more problems than you resolve that way.

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01-02-2013, 10:06 AM
  #136
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Sure lets expand.

Half the league can't make ends meet today, so why not add more potential money losers to the list.

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01-02-2013, 10:31 AM
  #137
Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
How can you be a leader when no one is willing to follow?

You have, at most, four prospective franchise owners right now. The Markham venture could go down the porcelain convenience in January and leave you with three. Paul Allen would have to be involved in some capacity in Portland, and he has said before that he isn't interested in the NHL, so that leaves Quebec and Seattle. We've only been talking about those cities for, what, two years now?

Expansion is not an overnight process. If you don't have a quality owner, a building, and a good-sized city (or a city with disproportionately large demand), you can't just throw a team someplace and expect it to stick. You'll create more problems than you resolve that way.
The NHL cannot just wait anymore. They need to reach out to people.

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01-02-2013, 10:40 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
...
The expansions of 1991-92, 1992-93, and 1993-94 actually saw a series of crackdowns on the ice, which led to a leaguewide surge in power plays.
Power play opportunities dropped in Gary Bettman's 1st season (93-94). And the expansion teams have been much more competitive from Gary Bettmans 2nd year (94-95) onward when power play opportunities were halved from the previous season.

But like I said, it might be too late anyway. Expansion teams or no expansion teams the officials may not take their job serious regardless. Or maybe they're instructed to put their whistles away from above. Not sure what's going on there.


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01-02-2013, 10:56 AM
  #139
Butch 19
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Originally Posted by Squantosawuss View Post
The LAST thing the NHL needs is a MORE watered down product.

If there are to be new cities in the league, those teams HAVE to come from the lesser performing cities.

I am actually shocked to see so much advocating for more teams. I don't get that at all.
agree with this ^^^^^

I don't have the time to keep track of 30 teams, let alone more than 30. By adding more teams, rivalries will get watered down (even more) as teams play each other less and less.

30 teams should be the maximum.

Fans need to see the entire league, not just teams in their conference. Teams NEED to play every other team home and home each season, which doesn't even happen now. Adding more teams makes no sense at all.

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01-02-2013, 11:06 AM
  #140
No Fun Shogun
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Cleveland is rebounding quite nicely thank you very march. There is over a billion dollars of development in the downtown core (within a 15 minute walk of the arena). I don't think its ready yet but 5-7 years down the line its possible as a destination for a relocated team
It may be rebounding, and as the other poster mentioned it does have a large metro area, but it doesn't change the fact that it still has a bit of a way's to go and there are question marks surrounding it from a sports saturation and overall hockey fandom angle.

Wouldn't think that they're on the league's hitlist for relocation or expansion targets for the foreseeable future.

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01-02-2013, 11:10 AM
  #141
DuklaNation
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
The assumption is that that's all there is to it. There's an entire business district in the immediate area that would be devastated, which in itself would trigger massive waves of lawsuits. There's parking, there's bonds for various improvements projects...it's hardly just as simple as "$39 million in damages".
I've done a lot of work in leases, loans, and corporate finance arrangements way more complicated than this. Short answer, not likely. Majority of lease arrangements have escape clauses. Otherwise, everyone could sue everybody all the time for anything. I would estimate $50m tops, hardly an impediment to eliminating that team.

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01-02-2013, 11:12 AM
  #142
Mayor Bee
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Are the terms of the lease public? Let's go to the lease and find the out clause
I don't know for certain what's public and what's not. I do know that a good friend of mine, who's an accountant of some prominence locally, has had a look at it and explained the ins and outs.

The short version of it is, "I don't know where that $39 million figure came from; that's really low." Of course, part of this conversation was another friend of ours (who's a rapidly-rising attorney), so I don't know how much of it was in regard to potential lawsuit damages.

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01-02-2013, 11:30 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
agree with this ^^^^^

I don't have the time to keep track of 30 teams, let alone more than 30. By adding more teams, rivalries will get watered down (even more) as teams play each other less and less.

30 teams should be the maximum.

Fans need to see the entire league, not just teams in their conference. Teams NEED to play every other team home and home each season, which doesn't even happen now. Adding more teams makes no sense at all.
I can't believe you of all people are against more teams.

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01-02-2013, 12:01 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by middletoe View Post
Power play opportunities dropped in Gary Bettman's 1st season (93-94). And the expansion teams have been much more competitive from Gary Bettmans 2nd year (94-95) onward when power play opportunities were halved from the previous season.
For the sake of avoiding potential distortion of facts, it should be noted that 94-95 was a lockout-shortened season: 48 games were played, which would explain the drastic reduction in power play opportunities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The NHL cannot just wait anymore. They need to reach out to people.
If the NHL or any other sports league "reaches out to people," they get the likes of John Spano. Leagues have to be very thorough with the expansion process if they want it to work. Throwing teams around willy-nilly is what minor leagues do.

The league can drop hints through back channels and whatnot that it wants to expand, but until somebody is interested in buying a team that has all of his/her ducks in a row, the league can't expand, unless you want more league-owned teams like Phoenix. Because that worked out so well.

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01-02-2013, 12:03 PM
  #145
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I can't believe you of all people are against more teams.
The timing seems off to be adding teams...but it does seems to make sense to have 32 teams at some point...

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01-02-2013, 12:07 PM
  #146
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The NHL cannot just wait anymore. They need to reach out to people.
I suggest they reach out to solid, potential owners first.

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01-02-2013, 12:17 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Sure lets expand.

Half the league can't make ends meet today, so why not add more potential money losers to the list.
if the new teams have less revenue it will bring down the cap numbers for everyone. So it will make the current teams stronger plus bring in revenue. I would love to see a team here in Baltimore. Houston and Baltimore are the biggest metro areas without a hockey team. Both would Dwarf tiny markets like Quebec City and Hamilton that so many people suggest.

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01-02-2013, 12:26 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
if the new teams have less revenue it will bring down the cap numbers for everyone. So it will make the current teams stronger plus bring in revenue. I would love to see a team here in Baltimore. Houston and Baltimore are the biggest metro areas without a hockey team. Both would Dwarf tiny markets like Quebec City and Hamilton that so many people suggest.
I'm not totally against expansion either, I just don't think it's prudent to even talk about it with so many of the current teams having a tough go of it. Get the new CBA in place, see how things go for 5 years, and then maybe talk expansion.

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01-02-2013, 12:28 PM
  #149
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if the new teams have less revenue it will bring down the cap numbers for everyone. So it will make the current teams stronger plus bring in revenue. I would love to see a team here in Baltimore. Houston and Baltimore are the biggest metro areas without a hockey team. Both would Dwarf tiny markets like Quebec City and Hamilton that so many people suggest.
Yeah because market is just a synonym for population. Bring on mexico city, the greatest untapped market on the continent!

Establishing a market means a lot more than looking at census numbers. Atlanta is more populous than Baltimore ( and has history with the flames) and their market went poof when asg divested themselves of the thrashers.

QC and Hamilton are indeed small TV markets but both are infinitely better hockey markets right now an likely for some in the future.

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01-02-2013, 01:16 PM
  #150
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Yeah because market is just a synonym for population. Bring on mexico city, the greatest untapped market on the continent!

Establishing a market means a lot more than looking at census numbers. Atlanta is more populous than Baltimore ( and has history with the flames) and their market went poof when asg divested themselves of the thrashers.

QC and Hamilton are indeed small TV markets but both are infinitely better hockey markets right now an likely for some in the future.
Well Maryland is the richest state in the US. So there is a lot of money available on spending on hockey tickets. And a ton of people wear Capitals jerseys in Baltimore. The team would do well here. The only reason there is no NHL/NBA teams is that the Washington teams work to keep teams out of here. We will probably have to steal a team to get one. Quebec City lost their NHL team. And is a tiny city. Give it a city who has proven to support sport franchises and will have a huge television market.

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