HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, expansion and relocation, and NHL revenues.

If the NHL comes back, there has to be a big expansion.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-02-2013, 01:25 PM
  #151
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
Well Maryland is the richest state in the US. So there is a lot of money available on spending on hockey tickets. And a ton of people wear Capitals jerseys in Baltimore. The team would do well here. The only reason there is no NHL/NBA teams is that the Washington teams work to keep teams out of here. We will probably have to steal a team to get one. Quebec City lost their NHL team. And is a tiny city. Give it a city who has proven to support sport franchises and will have a huge television market.
Quebec City is a small market but it's not THAT small.....we're not talking Saskatoon or Regina here. There's no reason there shouldn't be a team in Quebec.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 01:46 PM
  #152
Lazyking
Never Forget
 
Lazyking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 3,736
vCash: 500
No. 36 teams is ridiculous, the only league that should even consider expanding is the NFL. I'm not for contraction but the NHL should not expand anytime soon.. I'd move a team to Quebec but that's it

Lazyking is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 02:00 PM
  #153
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,945
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
Well Maryland is the richest state in the US. So there is a lot of money available on spending on hockey tickets. And a ton of people wear Capitals jerseys in Baltimore. The team would do well here. The only reason there is no NHL/NBA teams is that the Washington teams work to keep teams out of here. We will probably have to steal a team to get one. Quebec City lost their NHL team. And is a tiny city. Give it a city who has proven to support sport franchises and will have a huge television market.
The caps would oppose it, the flyers might as well. But saying " we have a lot of people" or " our people are richer" is not equivalent to we are a good market.

The northeast has the same knock against it that Canada does, adding a new team is only likely to get the same fans to switch allegiances. The NHL wants new fans which is why they went into markets with questionable pedigrees with the hope of making new fans.

Having more people or richer people is better than having fewer poorer fans but neither of these are a foundation you want to base a franchise on.

sandysan is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 02:42 PM
  #154
pondnorth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,197
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
Well Maryland is the richest state in the US. So there is a lot of money available on spending on hockey tickets. And a ton of people wear Capitals jerseys in Baltimore. The team would do well here. The only reason there is no NHL/NBA teams is that the Washington teams work to keep teams out of here. We will probably have to steal a team to get one. Quebec City lost their NHL team. And is a tiny city. Give it a city who has proven to support sport franchises and will have a huge television market.
I attended a few AHL games there,the Bandits.Less they 500 people on both friday and saturday.When people asked where we were from and we said Canada,they started asking us to explain the game to them.Doesn`t seem like a hockey market at all.

pondnorth is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:11 PM
  #155
scotchex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 569
vCash: 500
What's the most teams a professional league could support in North America (US+Canada)? Presumably there's some upper limit where it just doesn't work.

NFL has the most currently at 32.
And both the NHL and MLB are rumored to be considering expansion from 30 to 32.

But there are other leagues with more.
Top tier NCAA football has 58 teams in the top 5 conferences. 66 if you count the mortally wounded Big East. 120+ counting all Division 1 teams.

Hard part is creating any sense of parity as you expand. Population keeps growing though. I can imagine a successful pro league with 36 or even 40 teams. Seems a bit crazy. But 32 would have seemed crazy not too many decades ago.

scotchex is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:20 PM
  #156
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
What's the most teams a professional league could support in North America (US+Canada)? Presumably there's some upper limit where it just doesn't work.

NFL has the most currently at 32.
And both the NHL and MLB are rumored to be considering expansion from 30 to 32.

But there are other leagues with more.
Top tier NCAA football has 58 teams in the top 5 conferences. 66 if you count the mortally wounded Big East. 120+ counting all Division 1 teams.

Hard part is creating any sense of parity as you expand. Population keeps growing though. I can imagine a successful pro league with 36 or even 40 teams. Seems a bit crazy. But 32 would have seemed crazy not too many decades ago.
40 teams. Enough to cover the map

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:21 PM
  #157
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
What's the most teams a professional league could support in North America (US+Canada)? Presumably there's some upper limit where it just doesn't work.

NFL has the most currently at 32.
And both the NHL and MLB are rumored to be considering expansion from 30 to 32.

But there are other leagues with more.
Top tier NCAA football has 58 teams in the top 5 conferences. 66 if you count the mortally wounded Big East. 120+ counting all Division 1 teams.

Hard part is creating any sense of parity as you expand. Population keeps growing though. I can imagine a successful pro league with 36 or even 40 teams. Seems a bit crazy. But 32 would have seemed crazy not too many decades ago.
Well going by the other leagues I'd say 32 PLUS the Canadian teams, however many that may be. 10 Canadian teams maybe.

Confucius is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:27 PM
  #158
scotchex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
Well Maryland is the richest state in the US. So there is a lot of money available on spending on hockey tickets. And a ton of people wear Capitals jerseys in Baltimore. The team would do well here. The only reason there is no NHL/NBA teams is that the Washington teams work to keep teams out of here. We will probably have to steal a team to get one. Quebec City lost their NHL team. And is a tiny city. Give it a city who has proven to support sport franchises and will have a huge television market.
Maryland is not the richest state. Maryland actually has only the 15th largest state GDP.
And even by GDP per capita Maryland is only ranked 13th.
Delaware is the richest state per capita, followed by Alaska and Connecticut.

Teams mainly care about metro GDP. Not state GDP. Or state GDP per capita. Or metro GDP per capita. They look at metro GDP. Population * metro GDP per capita.

Wyoming is very wealthy per capita. But the population is so small that no league would put a team in Wyoming. They have the 5th highest GDP per capita, but the 48th ranked state GDP due to low population.

Alaska has the same issue. Plus travel concerns.

Maryland is in the top 30%. It's a fairly wealthy state with a medium-sized population.

But for sports, like most businesses, it's really more about the metro economy than the state. The state laws (taxes, regulation, etc) are, of course, very important. But it's really a metro vs metro comparison.

Virginia is very business friendly, but it's Northern Virginia that has really boomed because of the strength of the DC metro in our new Hunger Games style economy. The Maryland suburbs of DC have also benefited greatly from this situation.

source -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP

scotchex is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:32 PM
  #159
Butch 19
King me
 
Butch 19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Geographical Oddity
Country: United States
Posts: 9,410
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Quebec City is a small market but it's not THAT small.....we're not talking Saskatoon or Regina here. There's no reason there shouldn't be a team in Quebec.
Drink!

1 shot for each!

Butch 19 is online now  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:33 PM
  #160
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Drink!

1 shot for each!
lol

Morgoth Bauglir is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:35 PM
  #161
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 113,818
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
I can't believe you of all people are against more teams.
Of course we are. We have teams in unsustainable markets right now. Expansion fees would bail them out for one year. The idea you're pushing here is one of the things that has the league in trouble today.

__________________
Philadelphia's Real Alternative
(ynotradio.net)

Stop Feeding the Rumor-Monger

"I wonder if Norstrom has Forsberg's spleen mounted on his wall." - KINGS17

My 50 Favorite Albums of 2014 (sorry it's late)
GKJ is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:39 PM
  #162
atomic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pondnorth View Post
I attended a few AHL games there,the Bandits.Less they 500 people on both friday and saturday.When people asked where we were from and we said Canada,they started asking us to explain the game to them.Doesn`t seem like a hockey market at all.
People in a major city won't go to minor league games. Sorry but that is a fact. A lot more people in Baltimore go to Capitals games than ever went to Bandits games.

atomic is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:42 PM
  #163
atomic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
Maryland is not the richest state. Maryland actually has only the 15th largest state GDP.
And even by GDP per capita Maryland is only ranked 13th.
Delaware is the richest state per capita, followed by Alaska and Connecticut.

Teams mainly care about metro GDP. Not state GDP. Or state GDP per capita. Or metro GDP per capita. They look at metro GDP. Population * metro GDP per capita.

Wyoming is very wealthy per capita. But the population is so small that no league would put a team in Wyoming. They have the 5th highest GDP per capita, but the 48th ranked state GDP due to low population.

Alaska has the same issue. Plus travel concerns.

Maryland is in the top 30%. It's a fairly wealthy state with a medium-sized population.

But for sports, like most businesses, it's really more about the metro economy than the state. The state laws (taxes, regulation, etc) are, of course, very important. But it's really a metro vs metro comparison.

Virginia is very business friendly, but it's Northern Virginia that has really boomed because of the strength of the DC metro in our new Hunger Games style economy. The Maryland suburbs of DC have also benefited greatly from this situation.

source -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP
We are talking about income not gdp. GDP isn't buying tickets. Here are the facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ates_by_income

atomic is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:55 PM
  #164
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,945
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
People in a major city won't go to minor league games. Sorry but that is a fact. A lot more people in Baltimore go to Capitals games than ever went to Bandits games.
So a cornerstone of baltimores bid is that if things don't go to the fans perceptions, they intend to bail and find teams more to their liking?

Perhaps you don't think Winnipeg is a major city but one of the reasons the got the jets 2.0 is because they did support the moose. You don't go from no market to major league market simply by virtue of getting a team.

sandysan is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 03:58 PM
  #165
GordonGraham
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,955
vCash: 500
2 More teams would be great count me in

GordonGraham is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 04:11 PM
  #166
Conflicted Habs fan
Registered User
 
Conflicted Habs fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Martinique
Posts: 686
vCash: 50
The league can fit in 10 more teams to make a 40 team league divided into 4 large divisions of 10 teams each. I have spoken.

Conflicted Habs fan is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 04:25 PM
  #167
No Fun Shogun
Global Moderator
34-38-61-10-13
 
No Fun Shogun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Shogunate of Nofunia
Country: Fiji
Posts: 31,586
vCash: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
The league can fit in 10 more teams to make a 40 team league divided into 4 large divisions of 10 teams each. I have spoken.
And in a century, you might just be right.

Next decade? No so much.

No Fun Shogun is online now  
Old
01-02-2013, 04:36 PM
  #168
middletoe
Why am I me?
 
middletoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northern Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,819
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
For the sake of avoiding potential distortion of facts, it should be noted that 94-95 was a lockout-shortened season: 48 games were played, which would explain the drastic reduction in power play opportunities.

...
Ha. Wow. That was pretty bad. Thanks.

I'd rather they not expand. I'll just keep it at that for now.

middletoe is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 04:52 PM
  #169
atomic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
So a cornerstone of baltimores bid is that if things don't go to the fans perceptions, they intend to bail and find teams more to their liking?

Perhaps you don't think Winnipeg is a major city but one of the reasons the got the jets 2.0 is because they did support the moose. You don't go from no market to major league market simply by virtue of getting a team.
do you think people in New York City would go to AHL games? I doubt it.

Winnipeg is not a major city. Some US cities with bigger metro areas than Winnipeg:

dayton, ohio
allentown, pa
el paso, texas
baton rouge, la
worchester, mass
omaha, nebraska

None of these cities have a major league sports franchise.

Only two cities in Canada have more people in their metro area than Baltimore: Toronto and Montreal.

atomic is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 04:55 PM
  #170
Big McLargehuge
Global Moderator
Bitter Buffalo
 
Big McLargehuge's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Country: Iceland
Posts: 56,846
vCash: 50
In my opinion expansion is a necessity...but a small expansion.

Anything more than 32 would be overkill and only work to harm the product. The NFL has set the gold standard and 32 works well there. If the NFL isn't considering expanding, even with LA sitting vacant, there's no reason for the NHL to go any larger.

I expect Major League Baseball winds up expanding by 2 eventually as well, so the NL and AL both have an even number of teams again...the difference there is that there aren't any cities that exactly have baseball stadium projects underway, so expansion there is a bit trickier than it would be in the NHL/NBA.

__________________
“The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile, but that it is indifferent. If we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death, our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.” - Stanley Kubrick
http://sprites.pokecheck.org/i/054.gif
Big McLargehuge is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 05:12 PM
  #171
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,945
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
do you think people in New York City would go to AHL games? I doubt it.

Winnipeg is not a major city. Some US cities with bigger metro areas than Winnipeg:

dayton, ohio
allentown, pa
el paso, texas
baton rouge, la
worchester, mass
omaha, nebraska

None of these cities have a major league sports franchise.

Only two cities in Canada have more people in their metro area than Baltimore: Toronto and Montreal.
Population does not equal market. Market considers population but that is only one component of it. The difference is a that NYC has major sports teams in hockey, Baltimore does not.

So baltimores proposal boils down to, we deserve a team because we are a big city, but we have zero interest in supporting a minor league team and if you give us a team, we will roll the dice and somehow magically manufacture a market outta nothing, and trust us we can do it because our population is higher than the peg.

This trip seems eerily familiar.

I don't expect you to speak for all of charm city but if the NHL agreed to award you a team provisional on defined metrics of support of existing minor league teams, would you bite or would that be too small city for you? That you don't have to demonstrate any level of support but that you are an attractive candidate for expansion by exclusive virtue of the number of people living within the city limits and suburbs?

sandysan is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 05:22 PM
  #172
Big McLargehuge
Global Moderator
Bitter Buffalo
 
Big McLargehuge's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Country: Iceland
Posts: 56,846
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
do you think people in New York City would go to AHL games? I doubt it.

Winnipeg is not a major city. Some US cities with bigger metro areas than Winnipeg:

dayton, ohio
allentown, pa
el paso, texas
baton rouge, la
worchester, mass
omaha, nebraska

None of these cities have a major league sports franchise.

Only two cities in Canada have more people in their metro area than Baltimore: Toronto and Montreal.
And both Atlanta and Phoenix are roughly double the size of Baltimore.

Population isn't the only important thing about a market. Baltimore is right between two NHL teams that would fight to keep a team out, has no interested owner, has no building, and has no past that would indicate that they'd support NHL hockey. Until all of those change Baltimore isn't an option.

Big McLargehuge is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 05:36 PM
  #173
atomic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
And both Atlanta and Phoenix are roughly double the size of Baltimore.

Population isn't the only important thing about a market. Baltimore is right between two NHL teams that would fight to keep a team out, has no interested owner, has no building, and has no past that would indicate that they'd support NHL hockey. Until all of those change Baltimore isn't an option.
And both Atlanta and Phoenix have teams or had teams recently.

Population does matter. There are large sums of money to get from local cable revenue. I think the local baseball network (Which is owned by the Orioles) has 160 million a year in revenue. And the people in Baltimore area have a lot more income than Phoenix or Atlanta.

atomic is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 05:40 PM
  #174
atomic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Population does not equal market. Market considers population but that is only one component of it. The difference is a that NYC has major sports teams in hockey, Baltimore does not.

So baltimores proposal boils down to, we deserve a team because we are a big city, but we have zero interest in supporting a minor league team and if you give us a team, we will roll the dice and somehow magically manufacture a market outta nothing, and trust us we can do it because our population is higher than the peg.

This trip seems eerily familiar.

I don't expect you to speak for all of charm city but if the NHL agreed to award you a team provisional on defined metrics of support of existing minor league teams, would you bite or would that be too small city for you? That you don't have to demonstrate any level of support but that you are an attractive candidate for expansion by exclusive virtue of the number of people living within the city limits and suburbs?
It doesn't matter what I think. People in Baltimore will not support a minor league franchise. I went to the Bandits games no one was there. If you want to use minor league attendance as a figure why did Hershey not get a team yet? I go to there games and they are always packed. 10,000 most nights i have gone. I would say the area around Hershey probably has quite a lot more people than winnipeg area does. York, Harrisburg, Lancaster, Reading combined are probably significantly more than Quebec City as well. Why no team in Hershey?

atomic is offline  
Old
01-02-2013, 05:45 PM
  #175
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,945
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
And both Atlanta and Phoenix have teams or had teams recently.

Population does matter. There are large sums of money to get from local cable revenue. I think the local baseball network (Which is owned by the Orioles) has 160 million a year in revenue. And the people in Baltimore area have a lot more income than Phoenix or Atlanta.
So the argument is we expect to be at least as good as two unmitigated disasters? Not instilling a lot of confidence.

Yes Baltimore has more people than the peg, but the peg has a lot larger pool of people who are willing to spend money to support the team. Having more people who will never pay to support the team is not a virtue and it does not make it any more attractive than cites with smaller population but more willingness to support.

If we are to assume that the number of hockey fans is less in Baltimore than NYC, would these fans be willing to pay the second highest ticket prices in order to have a stable team in baltimore ? Because that's what winnepeg did.

sandysan is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:35 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.