HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must use the RUMOR prefix in thread title. Proposals must contain the PROPOSAL prefix in the thread title.

Mark Scheifele for Phil Kessel

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-29-2012, 12:01 PM
  #151
Bomber0104
One of These Days
 
Bomber0104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I was referring to the initial proposal.
You actually wouldn't take Kessel for Scheifele? Even in a sign and trade sort of thing?

Bomber0104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:03 PM
  #152
Paradise
Individual thinker
 
Paradise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Waiverpeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,244
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You actually wouldn't take Kessel for Scheifele? Even in a sign and trade sort of thing?


You're really reaching now

Paradise is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:03 PM
  #153
Bomber0104
One of These Days
 
Bomber0104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I didn't state that Leafs fans are ignorant but rather stated that some are perhaps ignoring the needs to the counter-party in this proposal. Prospects like Scheifele and Trouba might not carry much weight in your eyes relative to a player like Kessel, but to a team with a plan to build around their young top prospects they probably carry much more weight than does one season of Phil Kessel. That is kind of the point.
I think Jets fans are under-rating the capabilities of their own team plus adding a Phil Kessel and Kadri but that's your opinion.

My opinion is that you'd be crazy to turn down Kessel for just Scheifele alone. I'm not even really much of a Kessel fan and I wouldnt even do that. Could probably get more.

Bomber0104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:04 PM
  #154
Hank Chinaski
Global Moderator
\_(ツ)_/
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YTH
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,700
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You actually wouldn't take Kessel for Scheifele? Even in a sign and trade sort of thing?
No, I don't want Phil Kessel if it's at the expense of a potential franchise C.

Hank Chinaski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:05 PM
  #155
Bomber0104
One of These Days
 
Bomber0104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise View Post
[/B]

You're really reaching now
Not really reaching...just asking if Jets knew they could sign him another 5-7 years, you would probably be more inclined to give up nice prospects like Scheifele and Trouba.

Bomber0104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:08 PM
  #156
Heista18*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I didn't state that Leafs fans are ignorant but rather stated that some are perhaps ignoring the needs to the counter-party in this proposal. Prospects like Scheifele and Trouba might not carry much weight in your eyes relative to a player like Kessel, but to a team with a plan to build around their young top prospects they probably carry much more weight than does one season of Phil Kessel. That is kind of the point.
Which is why I first stated a deal of kessel for scheifele and the picks. I knew it would've been rejected by jet fans if I made up some equal proposal from each side where the jets would have had to give more. It takes an overpayment to get the kid, and I have admitted that in the original post. Got killed for it but i've also mentioned I understand this isn't selling kessel at his highest value, but I'm inquiring about a player I believe would improve the chemistry of our team in the long run. You take a hit for it at the time of the trade but I believe I know what I'm getting with mark down the road to improve the overall chemistry and look of the team. I also mentioned I think the kid would make more sense in carlyle's new offensive system.

Heista18* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:08 PM
  #157
Bomber0104
One of These Days
 
Bomber0104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
No, I don't want Phil Kessel if it's at the expense of a potential franchise C.
Risk reward right? Kid looks good no question. No guarantees in life tho.

Even if you feel Kessel is a 7 out of 10 and Scheifele could be a 8.5/10, if there's a small chance he doesn't reach that level (15%) all of a sudden Kessel is a better option and instantaneously too, no developing required.

I realize these are arbirtrary numbers but maybe you see what I mean.

Bomber0104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:08 PM
  #158
YWGinYYZ
Mod Supervisor
 
YWGinYYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,196
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I think Jets fans are under-rating the capabilities of their own team plus adding a Phil Kessel and Kadri but that's your opinion.

My opinion is that you'd be crazy to turn down Kessel for just Scheifele alone. I'm not even really much of a Kessel fan and I wouldnt even do that. Could probably get more.
At this stage, Kessel would be just a bit more than a rental - what happens if he decides to not re-sign when he becomes a UFA? The Jets have just mortgaged their future for one year of an admittedly great winger. Should the Jets make the playoffs this year or next? Probably. Are they a contender for the SC right now? Unlikely, so the addition of Kessel really doesn't help much in the short term, and long term, the prospect cupboards would be almost COMPLETELY bare.

I don't think anyone on the Jets side is downplaying the value of Kessel - he's an extremely good player. The situation the Jets are in just doesn't lend itself to making this kind of trade.

YWGinYYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:08 PM
  #159
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 10,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I think Jets fans are under-rating the capabilities of their own team plus adding a Phil Kessel and Kadri but that's your opinion.

My opinion is that you'd be crazy to turn down Kessel for just Scheifele alone. I'm not even really much of a Kessel fan and I wouldnt even do that. Could probably get more.
You are ignoring that Mark Scheifele is the first ever draft pick of the new management group of this franchise. They won't likely be trading him anytime soon and especially given their build plan... even if it is in exchange for an opportunity to enjoy one year of the vaunted Phil Kessel.

Gump Hasek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:10 PM
  #160
Phion Keneuf
Bang Bang
 
Phion Keneuf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vaughan, Ontario
Country: Italy
Posts: 29,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Risk reward right?

Kid looks good no question. No guarantees in life tho.

Even if you feel Kessel is a 7 out of 10 and Scheifele could be a 8.5/10, if there's a small chance he doesn't reach that level (15%) all of a sudden Kessel is a better option and instantaneously too, no developing required.
Kessel is a top 5/10 winger.

Scheifele has done jack all at the Nhl level...

I would be SHOCKED if Schiefele became a top liner in the NhL

Phion Keneuf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:13 PM
  #161
Heista18*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
I completely get it if jet fans would rather stick with scheifele. There's guys on here that think it's absolutely rediculous. They think of a prospect as simply a "prospect" not a player. Those same people compare apple to apple but it's more than that when trying to build a winner. It's about building team chemistry. Burke also said it best when he won gold with guys that were much worse than all of canada's players in terms of skill, but team USA was built so properly that year that they were more than capable to COMPETE. We need more think outside the box posters. The posters that get me and look at it from my POV I appreciate that.

Heista18* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:14 PM
  #162
Bomber0104
One of These Days
 
Bomber0104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
At this stage, Kessel would be just a bit more than a rental - what happens if he decides to not re-sign when he becomes a UFA? The Jets have just mortgaged their future for one year of an admittedly great winger. Should the Jets make the playoffs this year or next? Probably. Are they a contender for the SC right now? Unlikely, so the addition of Kessel really doesn't help much in the short term, and long term, the prospect cupboards would be almost COMPLETELY bare.

I don't think anyone on the Jets side is downplaying the value of Kessel - he's an extremely good player. The situation the Jets are in just doesn't lend itself to making this kind of trade.
Another assumption but lets just suppose we had some sort of handshake agreement worked about between the three parties (just like Boston Toronto and Kessel had before). It's been done, and with this same player no les.s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
You are ignoring that Mark Scheifele is the first ever draft pick of the new management group of this franchise. They won't likely be trading him anytime soon and especially given their build plan... even if it is in exchange for an opportunity to enjoy one year of the vaunted Phil Kessel.
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Kessel is a top 5/10 winger.

Scheifele has done jack all at the Nhl level...

I would be SHOCKED if Schiefele became a top liner in the NhL
Top 10 winger for sure.

Scheifele looks good. I'm not fessing to know how the future will work out but he does have top six potential and intangible qualities.

Bomber0104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:16 PM
  #163
Heista18*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Kessel is a top 5/10 winger.

Scheifele has done jack all at the Nhl level...

I would be SHOCKED if Schiefele became a top liner in the NhL
It really isn't even about if Scheifele can become a top offensive player... That's not what this deal is about. He won't ever surpass kessel's point totals, but what he can do is change the team chemistry. I'm looking for winners, guys that FIT in a particular system to WIN. It's much more than just points per season.

Heista18* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:16 PM
  #164
YWGinYYZ
Mod Supervisor
 
YWGinYYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,196
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Kessel is a top 5/10 winger.

Scheifele has done jack all at the Nhl level...

I would be SHOCKED if Schiefele became a top liner in the NhL
Then keep Kessel. Leaf fans are happy, as they have a proven elite NHL talent, and Jets fans are happy, as they keep the prospects that they feel will help them when they're ready to contend. Simple.

YWGinYYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:17 PM
  #165
Paradise
Individual thinker
 
Paradise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Waiverpeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,244
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Not really reaching...just asking if Jets knew they could sign him another 5-7 years, you would probably be more inclined to give up nice prospects like Scheifele and Trouba.
If the Jets knew they could sign him for 5-7 years, then they'd wait for him to become a UFA. Even then I'm not sure they'd try to sign him over a guy like Perry, Getzlaf or Zajac.

Paradise is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:18 PM
  #166
Heista18*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Another assumption but lets just suppose we had some sort of handshake agreement worked about between the three parties (just like Boston Toronto and Kessel had before). It's been done, and with this same player no les.s.

See above.



Top 10 winger for sure.

Scheifele looks good. I'm not fessing to know how the future will work out but he does have top six potential and intangible qualities.

I get you buddy. Except the involvement of Kadri in one of your trades

Heista18* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:18 PM
  #167
YWGinYYZ
Mod Supervisor
 
YWGinYYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,196
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heista18 View Post
It really isn't even about if Scheifele can become a top offensive player... That's not what this deal is about. He won't ever surpass kessel's point totals, but what he can do is change the team chemistry. I'm looking for winners, guys that FIT in a particular system to WIN. It's much more than just points per season.
And this is also one of the biggest reasons that Chevy drafted Scheifele - his character and determination. I agree that he will probably not be in the top 10 C's in the league, but if you're creating a line-up that doesn't require that, the things that Scheifele brings to the table are potentially more important.

YWGinYYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:19 PM
  #168
Badger Mayhew*
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise View Post
Nobody's asking him to move from his home. He can still live in London
You don't think there's a higher chance of him signing somewhere close to home, then somewhere random?

Then there's the obvious Burke connection.

Badger Mayhew* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:20 PM
  #169
Bomber0104
One of These Days
 
Bomber0104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heista18 View Post
It really isn't even about if Scheifele can become a top offensive player... That's not what this deal is about. He won't ever surpass kessel's point totals, but what he can do is change the team chemistry. I'm looking for winners, guys that FIT in a particular system to WIN. It's much more than just points per season.
I have a similar opinion about composition of teams. Leafs fans overwhelmingly voted against Bergeron in favor of Kessel. Strange to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise View Post
If the Jets knew they could sign him for 5-7 years, then they'd wait for him to become a UFA. Even then I'm not sure they'd try to sign him over a guy like Perry, Getzlaf or Zajac.
That's true. Guess I never thought of that.

Oh well. Not a fit.

I guess I just think Jets are closer than their fans think. But I don't follow them all that closely.

Bomber0104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:21 PM
  #170
Phion Keneuf
Bang Bang
 
Phion Keneuf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vaughan, Ontario
Country: Italy
Posts: 29,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heista18 View Post
It really isn't even about if Scheifele can become a top offensive player... That's not what this deal is about. He won't ever surpass kessel's point totals, but what he can do is change the team chemistry. I'm looking for winners, guys that FIT in a particular system to WIN. It's much more than just points per season.
How is Kessel not a winner? He plays through most of his injuries, he's a good guy, he is a PPG+ in the playoffs, etc.
he also has unreal chemistry with Lupul and Bozie, and even Kule in the past

And don't say it's because he's bad with the media, because Schiefele is, you know, just annoying, you know,
Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
Then keep Kessel. Leaf fans are happy, as they have a proven elite NHL talent, and Jets fans are happy, as they keep the prospects that they feel will help them when they're ready to contend. Simple.
I wouldn't have it any other way.

Phion Keneuf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:22 PM
  #171
Heista18*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
And this is also one of the biggest reasons that Chevy drafted Scheifele - his character and determination. I agree that he will probably not be in the top 10 C's in the league, but if you're creating a line-up that doesn't require that, the things that Scheifele brings to the table are potentially be more important.
Yup agreed man. Crazy how I was being killed throughout this whole thread basically being called a moron. These guys look up point totals and think it tells the whole story while a prospect is simply a "prospect".

Heista18* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:22 PM
  #172
Freakshow
Registered User
 
Freakshow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,237
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
He just drafted a blue chip prospect 5th overall. It's laughable to say he isn't rebuilding.

He was hired to "Win-Now" by previous ownership BTW.
All I'm saying is he's publicly stated that he's not interested in following what Pittsburgh and Edmonton did by losing for five years in a row. Which backfired on him anyways, being that the Leafs have drafted or could have drafted 5th, 9th, 2nd and 7th overall in the past four years. Drafting Rielly was a great move, he looks to be a very good young prospect.

I just don't believe for a second that he's gonna wanna finish in the bottom five for the next four years, he'll be fired before that. In the below video he's so full of it! Pittsburgh didn't win the Cup solely because of Sidney Crosby, they won the Cup because they drafted Malkin 2nd overall, Staal 2nd overall, Fleury 1st overall, Whitney 5th overall etc etc. I don't hate the Leafs but I love the fact they are failing miserably under his watch, because I really don't care for the man.

http://youtu.be/jzbUKhI5JfQ


Last edited by Freakshow: 12-29-2012 at 12:29 PM. Reason: video
Freakshow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:23 PM
  #173
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 10,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heista18 View Post
It really isn't even about if Scheifele can become a top offensive player... That's not what this deal is about. He won't ever surpass kessel's point totals, but what he can do is change the team chemistry. I'm looking for winners, guys that FIT in a particular system to WIN. It's much more than just points per season.
That is great and stuff but the Jets specifically cited Scheiefele's character as the reason why THEY drafted him and it is why they will keep him. Perhaps what you need is not Mark Scheifele specifically but rather a GM that doesn't trade his prospects away at the first opportunity.

Gump Hasek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:28 PM
  #174
Leafs For Life*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,636
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heista18 View Post
Yup agreed man. Crazy how I was being killed throughout this whole thread basically being called a moron. These guys look up point totals and think it tells the whole story while a prospect is simply a "prospect".
Yes, that's the point. Scheifele could bust like any other prospect. You are really over selling his 'intangibles' or really underselling having a sure top 10 winger on your team. And from this proposal, agree with the 2nd sentence.

Leafs For Life* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 12:29 PM
  #175
Heista18*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
How is Kessel not a winner? He plays through most of his injuries, he's a good guy, he is a PPG+ in the playoffs, etc.
he also has unreal chemistry with Lupul and Bozie, and even Kule in the past

And don't say it's because he's bad with the media, because Schiefele is, you know, just annoying, you know,


I wouldn't have it any other way.
No it's not because of that. He's a great guy and he does want to win, but the way I'd choose to build my team would probably be different than yours. I don't care if one guy scores 15 points more a season than another guy in terms of value, if the other guy brings more to the team in terms of intangibles, team fit, mold and chemistry, I'm looking at that option. You only have 6 top offensive slots available to build your team around, just because one guy scores more points doesn't necessarily mean he's locked forever until the remaining pieces are found.

Heista18* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.