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Nikolai Kulemin?

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Old
01-01-2013, 09:09 PM
  #151
seanlinden
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The arguments suggesting that Mason Raymond for Nikolai Kulemin is close to a good deal are at best naive, and realistically, idiotic.

The one thing that keeps being brought up for Raymond is speed.... who the heck cares? The Leafs are loaded with speed, and speed alone cannot make a guy a better player. Just ask Matt Lombardi, and what his great speed did for him this year. Furthermore, as far as forwards go, Kulemin has very good speed, just not as quick of a first step as Raymond. It makes him a slightly inferior penalty killer, but again, when you're talking about a guy with the proven ability to score 30 goals... he probably shouldn't be on the PK anyways.

As for defensive ability, as far as the Leafs needs go, Kulemin wins hands down again. A substantial portion of Kulemin's defensive ability comes from his ability to hold the puck in the offensive zone.... It's one of Toronto's biggest weaknesses, as Kulemin is really the only guy who can do that, and Raymond can't.

If a team was serious about trying to add Nikolai Kulemin to their roster, they'd likely be having to look towards the top of their lineup, and definitely in the context of something the Leafs don't have an abundance of. A 2nd/3rd line winger with speed is neither of those things. Don't think Kulemin's worth that? wonderful, he's worth less to you than he is to the Leafs.

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01-01-2013, 09:59 PM
  #152
marty111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Kulemin >> Raymond.

Post up a poll if you want.
It's pretty clear that bigger and more physical players are more valuable in the NHL then not. Aside from semantics, Mason Raymond doesn't really do anything better then Kulemin and physically cannot do what Kulemin does. If Raymond significantly put up more points or was faster or had a higher hockey IQ then maybe it could compensate for the lack of size between Raymond and Kulemin but he doesn't so it doesn't.

Two problems with Y2 arguments. (1) Saying Raymond is faster and Kulemin is more physical, thus they are equals is a short sighted argument. Kulemin is significantly bigger and stronger and makes a bigger difference in board play and in his defensive game compared to Raymond. Raymond may be technically faster then Kulemin but the difference is not significant. Rating these players ordinally is irresponsible. (2) Avoiding polling the issue because sometimes the results are effected by irrelevant issues - such as popularity - and thus assuming all polls are also irrelevant is also irresponsible. Gauge the responses and outcome of the poll to come to a conclusion of said poll to come to a conclusion. Not the deviants in polling history... although I would take Ward and Miller over Luongo.


Last edited by marty111: 01-01-2013 at 10:04 PM.
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01-01-2013, 10:10 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I will err on the side of caution and stick with the stats that tell me that Raymond and Kulemin production wise are equals.
When you compare players in vastly different environments, you have to look at other indicators outside of looking strictly at stats.

Same reason why some people would take Ward and Miller over Luongo and also why statical averages over Luongo's career doesn't hold the amount of weight most Canucks feel it does when considering Luongo's current trade value.

FYI, to Leaf fans. Y2's responses on Raymond versus Kulemin is a structured argument as to why Vancouver doesn't really need Kulemin in a Luongo deal. Hence, they have Raymond and thus Kulemin isn't and upgrade - although 90% of people would openly admit it would be. That's where it originated so don't be surprised it doesn't make all that much sense when comparing these players, especially in a vacuum.

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01-01-2013, 10:14 PM
  #154
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Even if the Canucks sweetened the pot a little, I would be so pissed off if the Leafs ever traded Kulemin for Raymond. I would not want any part of that trade.

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01-01-2013, 10:39 PM
  #155
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One thing I can say is that I'm pretty sure Kulemin is a much more physical player. I value that. I watch our guys get destroyed by Boston every freaking game. We don't need players like Mason Raymond. He has a role on several teams but Toronto already has a player like that (Lombardi) and he isn't at all effective.

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01-01-2013, 10:49 PM
  #156
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Kulemin is a solid top 6 forward with size... the ideal format for a top 6.


Power forward - playmaker - Sniper
Two way Forward - playmaker - sniper

Kulemin is that guy on the second line that does everything you need. Not every top 6 forward needs 50 + points to play an effective role. Kulemin's value can't be determined by his point totals of last season. Despite his numbers being down in a poor season he still created space for Grabovski and Macarthur. Who ever he plays with always has so much space and it's a big reason why Grabovski has been so good the last 2 seasons. Kulemin is a beast and I no the KHL is a completely different league but the fact he is a PPG and top 10 in scoring in a pretty damn good league is very encouraging. He should at the very worst provide us with 25-25 type numbers on the second line while providing space for his line mates... making him extremely valuable in our top 6. I wouldn't trade him for anything less than another two way/power forward in return because it's what we need the most making it pointless to even consider trading him. Kulemin is one of the last guys on our team that should be traded, not to mention his value isn't at its highest.

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01-01-2013, 10:52 PM
  #157
y2kcanucks
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Last year Kulemin scored SEVEN goals, yet people are acting like he's a top 6 forward. Oh well. Add him to the overrated pile I guess.

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01-01-2013, 11:34 PM
  #158
HappyGilmourr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Last year Kulemin scored SEVEN goals, yet people are acting like he's a top 6 forward. Oh well. Add him to the overrated pile I guess.
you can spin stats any way you want, but him having a season like that ever again in his career is highly unlikely... Look i can do that too... Kulemin scored 30 goals in 2011 so that means he was a first liner that year! lol.

He isn't valued so highly because of his stats anyways its because of his work along the boards and his ability to create space. The fact Kulemin has a history of 30 goals in the NHL and is top 10 in scoring in the KHL are indications he should be able to produce at a high level again.

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01-01-2013, 11:39 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Last year Kulemin scored SEVEN goals, yet people are acting like he's a top 6 forward. Oh well. Add him to the overrated pile I guess.
He's not overrated he is just simply that effective for us. You can't base everything on stats. 12 players on the leafs scored more goals than Kulemin in 2011-12 including Joey Crabb, David Steckel and Matt Frattin. I can assure you no leaf fan will put any of these players in our top 6... but Kulemin is - and for good reasons.

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01-01-2013, 11:53 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
Wow guess you can keep Kulemin
Have to laugh at how little of respect Kulemin gets on the board.

He is incredibly underrated. He's going to rebound, and his game will really shine if the leafs ever manage to make the playoffs.

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01-02-2013, 12:47 AM
  #161
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I wonder why no other Vancouver fan is coming to the rescue to say Raymond is better than/ the same as Kulemin...

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01-02-2013, 02:31 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antropovsky View Post
Have to laugh at how little of respect Kulemin gets on the board.

He is incredibly underrated. He's going to rebound, and his game will really shine if the leafs ever manage to make the playoffs.
I guarantee you Kulemin doesn't score 30 in the NHL next full season.

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01-02-2013, 02:38 AM
  #163
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How can you underrate seven goals lol

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01-02-2013, 03:03 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I guarantee you Kulemin doesn't score 30 in the NHL next full season.
How many 2nd line forwards do? How many NHL players could on a line with grabovski and MacArthur and 2nd pp time?

Kulemin always gives 100%, is one on the worlds top defensive forwards and is build like a Mack truck. Give him an American name, some personality and he's way more appreciated.

IMO he's capable of being at least a regular 50 point player, still bringing the intangibles that make him incedibly valuable, while still playing 2nd everything minutes.

There just isn't alot of professionals like Kulemin, nor are there many players.

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01-02-2013, 03:20 AM
  #165
Jason MacIsaac
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Would Volchenkov for Kulemin make any sense?

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01-02-2013, 04:08 AM
  #166
Jax Teller
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Would Volchenkov for Kulemin make any sense?
No interest.

Reminds me too much of Komisarek. 4+ mil per year deal, long term, signed with the intention of playing top-4 shutdown minutes, but is in a 3rd pairing role.

Both shot blocking, physical, PK defenseman with poor puck moving ability.

I might take a chance if Komisarek was moved and it was at a lesser price.

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01-02-2013, 08:05 AM
  #167
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Would Volchenkov for Kulemin make any sense?
No.

Like another poster mentioned, his contract, age, and playing style are far too similar to Mike Komisarek, who we should be happy to be rid of in a year, possibly sooner if there's compliance buyouts.

Toronto does need a top 4 shutdown guy, but it's gotta be somebody with a bit more footspeed. It also can't come at the cost of Nikolai Kulemin, as losing his presence in the offensive zone will do more damage to our defensive game than a shutdown defenceman will help.

We'd be looking at a guy like Clarke MacArthur, who'd be available for a defenceman.... but as mentioned above, likely not Volchenkov.

Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I guarantee you Kulemin doesn't score 30 in the NHL next full season.
You'll find very few Leafs fans who believe he'll score 30 next full season... What we beleive though, is that he'll probably score between 15 and 25, while providing an incredibly solid defensive and puck-possession game, and likely being one of the better +/- players on the team despite often going up against the opposition's top offensive units.

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01-02-2013, 11:47 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Not sure where I said that, but last I checked we have that same number of cups. The fact that Gillis thought the Ballard trade was a good idea doesn't really help his case.
First, let us not perpetuate the cup superiority defense, lest I put on a Hab cap and champion why they are the best team in hockey, despite having no relevance. It's a stupid argument and no one cares. Agreed? Agreed.

Second, you are excluding necessary context. Ballard was essentially a plan B had Hamhuis opted to sign elsewhere. Gillis had no intention of matching the increased offers received, thus it was up to Hamhius if Vancouver was worth a paycut. Turns out we ended up with both. Grabner was mess defensively, and considering our system operates under a strong reliance on two-way play. Any opporunity he had to excel here was fleeting at best. A shame, I loved the kid but he simply could not adjust and has Long Island found out just recently, his narrow-minded, one dimensional play renders him incredibly predictable.

Ballard may well have been a good idea had we not outsourced his necessity. His biggest issues are an inability to play on the right side and recklessness that often leave gaffs for a counter-attack. Had the former not been the case, it may have worked out. Nevertheless, it was a trade for assets we had no use of.


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Tambellini actually dug for pucks and made Kesler's life easier. The Canucks were so desperate for someone in that role they had an AHLer fill it on their 2nd line for 50 games and traded for a tunnel-visioned, shoot-first Booth coming off of a pair of serious concussions the following year. A guy everyone could see would not mesh with Kesler from a mile away. And then subsequently traded for Kassian to fill that role in the future. That's 3 attempts at filling a hole Kulemin would have filled perfectly. Apparently it's a pretty big hole.
And this here is why Y2K and I have a difference of opinion toward Kulemin. While I do not believe one is vastly superior to the other - they serve to fill their own niche. Kulemin has the preferable attributes and his physicality trumps the benefits Raymond may or may not have over him. He can grind the corners and effectively maintain the zone, both more appreciated when Kesler inevitably goes into "one-man army" mode and tries to do everything himself. Whereas Raymond fumbles or gets completely out-muscled, Kulemin would not. And for that reason alone I would prefer Kulemin any day.

Raymond does have upside, and frankly, could excel on a team who could make use of his strengths whilst addressing his weaknesses. Vancouver is simply not that team. We have better alternatives on the third line and Raymond has utterly no chemistry with Kesler. For the record, Toronto isn't a great fit for him either. Although, Kulemin and Raymond might pair well together. Ironic.

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Perhaps the reason the Canucks keep getting devoured by slow, gritty teams in the playoffs is because Gillis also worships at the altar of qualcomp and corsi to build his team rather than getting gritty players who may not have the best skills skating stats in the business. Though it seems lately he's wised up to that fact at least.
Allow me to say, there are other factors to our downfall, numerous in fact, but I do not entirely disagree, though Raymond seems to be more of a "might as well" re-signing than one of any relevance. My guess is we replace him through a trade before the season's done, if there is one.

The rest of your post I either agree with or we'd argue semantics.

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01-02-2013, 12:34 PM
  #169
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To the pens for TK and a D prospect

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01-02-2013, 12:38 PM
  #170
Phion Keneuf
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To the pens for TK and a D prospect
Maybe if that D prospect is Maata. Tk has no value to us at all.

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01-02-2013, 03:03 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Maybe if that D prospect is Maata. Tk has no value to us at all.
Let's say Maatta is in the discussion...we would need some sweetener considering his value as a recent 1st rounder and Kulemin's disappointing year.

What would you say to Maatta for Kulemin and Percy?

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01-02-2013, 03:53 PM
  #172
7even
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Let's say Maatta is in the discussion...we would need some sweetener considering his value as a recent 1st rounder and Kulemin's disappointing year.

What would you say to Maatta for Kulemin and Percy?
Well if we're going by draft status as a metric, Percy's a recent first as well. The difference between the two is not Kulemin.

Also, not directed to you specifically, but I'm tired of seeing "Kulemin had a disappointing season" or "lol 7 goals soooo overrated." And I hate to pull out the "watch the games" card, but anyone who's watched the Leafs will tell you that the crux of Kulemin's game isn't his point scoring. He doesn't need to score to be a fantastic utility player. I was perfectly fine with his season last year, and have absolutely no interest in discussing moving him when the goalposts are being set by people who don't understand his game.

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01-02-2013, 03:55 PM
  #173
TheLeastOfTheBunch
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Much more valuable to the Leafs than what he bring back in a trade I think.

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01-02-2013, 03:58 PM
  #174
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This thread is just more Leaf player bashing because he is on the Leafs.

So many pages of "he only scored 7 goals lolololol". The guy shot 6.5% last season, well off his career average of 12.3% over his four seasons.

Assuming he shot to has average this season he would have been good for 14 goals. The guy plays an EXCELLENT two way game, is a silent leader on the ice, has a great contract (and doesn't seem like the type to want to break the bank on his next one). There is no reason for Toronto to move him outside of being a piece in a package for a significantly better player (ie a #1C)

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01-02-2013, 04:21 PM
  #175
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Well if we're going by draft status as a metric, Percy's a recent first as well. The difference between the two is not Kulemin.
Just a framework - I'd expect a prospect who replaces some of what Maatta brings if he's going to be involved in a deal for a player with Kulemin's question marks, to mitigate the risk. There's room for alterations.

Quote:
Also, not directed to you specifically, but I'm tired of seeing "Kulemin had a disappointing season" or "lol 7 goals soooo overrated." And I hate to pull out the "watch the games" card, but anyone who's watched the Leafs will tell you that the crux of Kulemin's game isn't his point scoring. He doesn't need to score to be a fantastic utility player. I was perfectly fine with his season last year, and have absolutely no interest in discussing moving him when the goalposts are being set by people who don't understand his game.
But by the standard Kulemin set last year, he absolutely had a disappointing season - there's really no way around it. He is a good utility player regardless, obviously, but all other things being equal a 30 goal scorer is going to be much more valuable than a 7 goal scorer. Scoring isn't everything, but it's not negligible either.

You can find other big, physical, defensively solid forwards who will flirt with 10 goals relatively easily.

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