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Zibanejad/Ceci/Lehner vs. Strome/Reinhart/Poulin

View Poll Results: Which trio would you choose to build a team around?
Mika Zibanejad, Cody Ceci, Robin Lehner 44 31.65%
Ryan Strome, Griffin Reinhart, Kevin Poulin 95 68.35%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-30-2012, 02:47 PM
  #26
Milan the God*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
This is debated on the Sens forum a lot. My personal feelings as well as many others is Silfverberg>>Zibanejad.

That being said, NYI still have the better prospect pool
Yep. Strome is better than Silf or Zibanejad.

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Old
12-30-2012, 02:49 PM
  #27
N Bahn Ahden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
Yep. Strome is better than Silf or Zibanejad.
I'd put it Silfverberg, Strome, Zibanejad, in that order.

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Old
12-30-2012, 02:50 PM
  #28
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Personal preference is Sens, although Strome and Reinhart are hard to turn down.

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Old
12-30-2012, 03:56 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Cool straw man argument bro. Just because draft pick is a relevant factor doesn't mean that it is the be-all end-all.

Put it this way, you have two defensemen and you know nothing about them other than that one was drafted 4th overall and made Team Canada, the other was drafted 15th and did not receive an invite to Team Canada. Which would you take? If you picked the first option, congratulations, you just proved that draft position and making team Canada does mean something.

Furthermore, your comparison means little considering I don't think anybody was saying there is zero possibility that Ceci could be the better player. Just that Reinhart is probably the safer pick to be better, given that NHL and Team Canada scouts thought he was better. Evaluating players years later based on the draft is obviously silly because they've both had time to prove themselves. In predicting who will be the better player between Reinhart and Ceci, we are speculating about who will be a better player in the NHL. Seeing as how we have no concrete evidence of either playing better in the NHL, the opinions of NHL scouts is absolutely relevant.

I don't know why so many users are only capable of thinking in absolutes, either [insert factor of player value] means nothing, or it means everything. Surely to god the rational answer could not be somewhere in between.
Im not saying Ceci > Reinhart. Im saying making team Canada and being drafted higher doesn't make the player a better prospect. Team Canada doesn't choose their roster based on which player is the best prospect. They choose the currently best players and to fill in needs. Draft position is 100% irrelevant, some teams go BPA, some draft for needs and some teams just suck at drafting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And the year after they were drafted that would be correct.

Sometimes there are exceptions as to how they develop, but anyone would have taken Barker over Green in their draft year.
Agreed. Again, im not saying Ceci > Reinhart.

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Old
12-30-2012, 04:37 PM
  #30
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Strome > Zibs
Reinhart >> Ceci
Poulin << Lehner

Close, but I take Islanders

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Old
12-30-2012, 05:03 PM
  #31
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Zibanejad is being severely underrated, wow. Not by all though.

With that being said, I'd take Sens trio because Lehner>>>Poulin biggest gap between any of the 3 players mentioned.

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Old
12-30-2012, 05:32 PM
  #32
boredmale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
With that being said, I'd take Sens trio because Lehner>>>Poulin biggest gap between any of the 3 players mentioned.
Only flaw with this logic is in terms of value(say for trade purposes)

Forward > Defenseman >>> Goalie

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Old
12-30-2012, 05:32 PM
  #33
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Isles. especially with Johny T

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12-30-2012, 05:45 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
Only flaw with this logic is in terms of value(say for trade purposes)

Forward > Defenseman >>> Goalie
Yea but that's if all have the same value. Zibanejad and Strome, Ceci and Reinhart don't have that big of a difference in terms of value between each other. I see Lehner as top 5 goalie in NHL potential. I don't know if I even see Poulin as top 15.

That's value for you.

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Old
12-30-2012, 05:46 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by bigbadbruins7 View Post
Isles. especially with Johny T
Lol, Karlsson and Spezza. What's your point?

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Old
12-30-2012, 05:52 PM
  #36
boredmale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Yea but that's if all have the same value. Zibanejad and Strome, Ceci and Reinhart don't have that big of a difference in terms of value between each other. I see Lehner as top 5 goalie in NHL potential. I don't know if I even see Poulin as top 15.
For the sake of argument let's say Strome and Zibanejad are equal. I do think there is a significant difference in the value of Reinhart compared to Ceci, maybe it's not as big as Lehner vs Poulin but their is a difference.

Just going by last years draft rankings Reinhart was considered part of the first teir defensemen(ie top 10 pick) while Ceci was more in the second teir of draft eligible players(ie 11-20 range). I don't think either guys has done much to either improve or decrease there stock since them.

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Old
12-30-2012, 06:01 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale;56914273[B
]Reinhart is better than Ceci. This is why Reinhart was drafted 4th overall and Ceci 15th.[/B] This is also why Reinhart is playing at the World Juniors while Ceci didn't even get a camp invite.
Yeah, this really means nothing.

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Old
12-30-2012, 06:19 PM
  #38
Qward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Cool straw man argument bro. Just because draft pick is a relevant factor doesn't mean that it is the be-all end-all.

Put it this way, you have two defensemen and you know nothing about them other than that one was drafted 4th overall and made Team Canada, the other was drafted 15th and did not receive an invite to Team Canada. Which would you take? If you picked the first option, congratulations, you just proved that draft position and making team Canada does mean something.

Furthermore, your comparison means little considering I don't think anybody was saying there is zero possibility that Ceci could be the better player. Just that Reinhart is probably the safer pick to be better, given that NHL and Team Canada scouts thought he was better. Evaluating players years later based on the draft is obviously silly because they've both had time to prove themselves. In predicting who will be the better player between Reinhart and Ceci, we are speculating about who will be a better player in the NHL. Seeing as how we have no concrete evidence of either playing better in the NHL, the opinions of NHL scouts is absolutely relevant.

I don't know why so many users are only capable of thinking in absolutes, either [insert factor of player value] means nothing, or it means everything. Surely to god the rational answer could not be somewhere in between.
To be fair to Ceci, he was ranked higher than Reinhart in the final rankings.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=79331

Reinhart is a more physical defenceman and I think teams like NYI were looking for that.

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Old
12-30-2012, 06:42 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
To be fair to Ceci, he was ranked higher than Reinhart in the final rankings.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=79331

Reinhart is a more physical defenceman and I think teams like NYI were looking for that.
Mackenzie had Reinhart 4th, Ceci 14th

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9831

beyond that

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9825

Reinhart

NHL Central Scouting: 10 NAS, International Scouting Services: No. 6, The Hockey News: No. 8, Button's Ranking: No. 6

Ceci

NHL Central Scouting: 6 NAS, International Scouting Services: No. 10, The Hockey News: No. 10, Button's Ranking: No. 11

Basically only 1 place had Ceci higher(and Central Scouting puts out a list before the Memorial cup(I believe their final list is early April) which i am guessing did alot to drive up Reinhart's ranking). It should also be noted the Hockey News is another place that jumps the gun before the Memorial Cup(although I believe their list is complied in early May so you do get some playoff hockey)


Last edited by boredmale: 12-30-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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Old
12-30-2012, 06:45 PM
  #40
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Lehner over anyone there, but the rest go to the Isles pretty easily. With Silfverberg in there I think it's closer.

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Old
12-30-2012, 07:10 PM
  #41
MastuhNinks
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Draft position is most definitely not 100% irrelevant 6 months after the draft, and it's not like Ceci was drafted 2 or 3 picks later, he was drafted 11 picks later, the difference between 4th overall and 15th is huge. You can pretend all you want, but the opinions of the World's best hockey scouts is absolutely a factor when it has barely been any time since the draft.

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Old
12-30-2012, 07:16 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Draft position is most definitely not 100% irrelevant 6 months after the draft, and it's not like Ceci was drafted 2 or 3 picks later, he was drafted 11 picks later, the difference between 4th overall and 15th is huge. You can pretend all you want, but the opinions of the World's best hockey scouts is absolutely a factor when it has barely been any time since the draft.
Your under the assumption every team drafted BPA and had the same lists.

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Old
12-30-2012, 07:35 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
For the sake of argument let's say Strome and Zibanejad are equal. I do think there is a significant difference in the value of Reinhart compared to Ceci, maybe it's not as big as Lehner vs Poulin but their is a difference.

Just going by last years draft rankings Reinhart was considered part of the first teir defensemen(ie top 10 pick) while Ceci was more in the second teir of draft eligible players(ie 11-20 range). I don't think either guys has done much to either improve or decrease there stock since them.
Difference yes, significant? Nah. Regardless, even if I agree with you, the difference between Lehner and Poulin is so substantial that it weighs it in favour of Ottawa.

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Old
12-30-2012, 09:32 PM
  #44
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The Ottawa prospects are no good, so obviously it's the isles guys AINEC.

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Old
12-30-2012, 09:56 PM
  #45
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Islanders trio

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12-30-2012, 10:00 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniSens View Post
Yeah, this really means nothing.
It does only half a year after they were drafted.

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12-30-2012, 11:24 PM
  #47
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I prefer Strome over Zib no doubt, but Reinhart is way overrated.

Reinhart/Gudbranson/Schenn types should not be picked that high and are not more valuable than two-way d-men.

Lehner is imo the best prospect out of the 6, making this a win for the Sens. Beast.

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Old
12-31-2012, 12:03 AM
  #48
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Islanders trio pretty easily

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12-31-2012, 08:35 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
Mackenzie had Reinhart 4th, Ceci 14th

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9831

beyond that

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9825

Reinhart

NHL Central Scouting: 10 NAS, International Scouting Services: No. 6, The Hockey News: No. 8, Button's Ranking: No. 6

Ceci

NHL Central Scouting: 6 NAS, International Scouting Services: No. 10, The Hockey News: No. 10, Button's Ranking: No. 11

Basically only 1 place had Ceci higher(and Central Scouting puts out a list before the Memorial cup(I believe their final list is early April) which i am guessing did alot to drive up Reinhart's ranking). It should also be noted the Hockey News is another place that jumps the gun before the Memorial Cup(although I believe their list is complied in early May so you do get some playoff hockey)
While I think this makes it clear that most scouts thought more highly of Reinhart than Ceci, it also shows that many thought they were closer than what the draft results showed (even the biggest spread wasn't as big as the actual result).

Zibanejad has seen his stock drop a bit early this season as he had a slow start and since has been plagued by injuries. Not saying he is better than strome (I really couldn't say) but I think he'll be much better than the start of the season would indicate.

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Old
01-01-2013, 09:33 AM
  #50
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Voted Islanders, but replace Mika with Silfverberg and I would have voted the Sens. Close.

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