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Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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01-06-2013, 01:30 PM
  #151
TheDevilMadeMe
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Percy LeSueur

If anyone didn't see it, here's the thread on the generation of goalies who immediately preceded World War I - the first generation that the HHOF inducted goalies from: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1313825

I think that between books, primary newspaper sources (posted by Sanf in post 6) and the 1925 MacLean's survey of hockey experts, it's fairly safe to say that LeSueur was the best goalie of his generation (a generation that included fellow HHOFers Paddy Moran, Riley Hern, and Bouse Hutton).

LeSueur didn't totally play in hockey's dark ages either. His pro career lasted from 1905-1917 and he played in the NHA from 1910-1917. So he played extensively against Newsy Lalonde and Joe Malone, both of whom joined the NHA in 1910. He also played some against Frank Nighbor (joined the NHA in 1912) and Cy Denneny (joined the NHA in 1914).

LeSueur will be in my top 4 this round. I don't think he should have necessarily gone earlier than this, but I think this is about where he should go. I think that he's the one the from his generation who really needs to be on our top 40 list (if we expand to top 50, we can consider thinking about adding Moran or Hern).


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01-06-2013, 01:44 PM
  #152
Mike Farkas
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Thomas, I guess.
Negative.

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01-06-2013, 01:48 PM
  #153
TheDevilMadeMe
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Current thoughts:

1-2. Tom Barrasso and Percy LeSueur. I talked about both this round - Barrasso has the best Vezina record (5 time finalist, nobody else available was a finalist more than 3 times) and he seems to have been widely considered the 2nd most important member of both the 1991 and 1992 Cup winners. LeSueur seems to be widely considered the best goalie to play the game before World War I, and he does have a few years of overlap with guys already on our list (Benedict, Vezina, Lehman). Which one I like better is a coin flip, but those are my top 2 guys.

3. Hap Holmes. Great longevity as a productive player. He doesn't seem to have been remembered as fondly as Hugh Lehman, but I think it's time for Holmes. He was a highly sought after mercenary, and seems to have been a real difference maker with 4 Cup with 4 difference teams. Not many true "difference makers" left, I don't think.

4-6. I'm open to a strong case for someone else, but right now, the modern trio of Joseph/Beezer/Luongo is starting to look strong, and I don't see all that much that separates them. Luongo has more playoff issues than the other two, but I do really like his regular seasons. And I do agree with CG that Luongo has 1-2 Vezinas if it weren't for bad luck.

After that, I'm looking at some mix of Connell, Thomas, Vachon, and Giacomin for my last two spots. Maybe Dave Kerr or Mike Liut. If anyone wants to make a case that I'm underrating any of these guys, now's the time. I'm also not entirely sure that Giacomin and Vachon separate themselves from Dzurilla.


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01-06-2013, 03:08 PM
  #154
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...
4-6. I'm open to a strong case for someone else, but right now, the modern trio of Joseph/Beezer/Luongo is starting to look strong, and I don't see all that much that separates them. ...
Joseph is #4 in career wins, #10 in career wins has not even been mentioned yet, and both have more career wins than your #2 Hasek.

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01-06-2013, 03:56 PM
  #155
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Joseph is #4 in career wins, #10 in career wins has not even been mentioned yet, and both have more career wins than your #2 Hasek.
Career wins? Really?

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01-06-2013, 04:22 PM
  #156
Mike Farkas
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I'm not sure how to feel about Percy LeSueur to be honest...he almost certainly was the best of his era, but what does that mean really...

I mean, we're talking about a guy who is playing 10, 12, 18 games in a season...he was only minimally above .500 in his NHA career (61-55). In his NHA career his GAA finishes were: 3rd (of 6), 2nd (of 5), 3rd (of 4), 5th (of 7), 4th (of 6), 6th (of 6), 4th (of 5)

I mean, I don't even really care about that so much (the finishes), I believe the people that said he was awesome for his time...I just question the time...I'm very uneasy about the level of competition here and maybe I'm a "modern homer" now or whatever, but something doesn't feel "right" about this...it feels like we're trying too hard, for lack of better phrasing...

This might be irrelevant but I scanned this awhile ago, before I was really apart of the discussion here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=21 - It's the 1913 NHA season

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01-06-2013, 04:31 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'm not sure how to feel about Percy LeSueur to be honest...he almost certainly was the best of his era, but what does that mean really...

I mean, we're talking about a guy who is playing 10, 12, 18 games in a season...he was only minimally above .500 in his NHA career (61-55). In his NHA career his GAA finishes were: 3rd (of 6), 2nd (of 5), 3rd (of 4), 5th (of 7), 4th (of 6), 6th (of 6), 4th (of 5)

I mean, I don't even really care about that so much (the finishes), I believe the people that said he was awesome for his time...I just question the time...I'm very uneasy about the level of competition here and maybe I'm a "modern homer" now or whatever, but something doesn't feel "right" about this...it feels like we're trying too hard, for lack of better phrasing...

This might be irrelevant but I scanned this awhile ago, before I was really apart of the discussion here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=21 - It's the 1913 NHA season
It's hard to say for sure. I think LeSueur belonged to the last generation before hockey really became the major sport that it would later be after World War I.

This following line of thinking worked for me during the defenseman project: When hockey is developing generation by generation, the superstar of a previous generation can be ranked close to the secondary star of the following, stronger generation. In the defensemen project, that means I had Hod Stuart (superstar of the pre-WW1 generation) close to Eddie Gerard (secondary star of the first really strong generation with Sprague Cleghorn being the superstar dman). By comparison, I would have LeSueur (superstar at least among goalies of the pre-WW1 generation) close to Hap Holmes (secondary star of the first really strong generation with Vezina and Benedict and maybe Lehman as the superstars). There's no logical proof of this, it just "feels right" as a way to give the earlier generation some credit without pretending they were as good as the one that followed.

I mean, LeSueur had several years of career overlap with Vezina and Benedict in the NHA, so his generation couldn't have been THAT far behind. This isn't Tom Paton we are talking about, who retired when Georges Vezina was 6 years old.

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01-06-2013, 04:40 PM
  #158
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Percy LeSueur

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'm not sure how to feel about Percy LeSueur to be honest...he almost certainly was the best of his era, but what does that mean really...

I mean, we're talking about a guy who is playing 10, 12, 18 games in a season...he was only minimally above .500 in his NHA career (61-55). In his NHA career his GAA finishes were: 3rd (of 6), 2nd (of 5), 3rd (of 4), 5th (of 7), 4th (of 6), 6th (of 6), 4th (of 5)

I mean, I don't even really care about that so much (the finishes), I believe the people that said he was awesome for his time...I just question the time...I'm very uneasy about the level of competition here and maybe I'm a "modern homer" now or whatever, but something doesn't feel "right" about this...it feels like we're trying too hard, for lack of better phrasing...

This might be irrelevant but I scanned this awhile ago, before I was really apart of the discussion here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=21 - It's the 1913 NHA season
Percy LeSueur gets credit for a variety of reasons. His on ice skills, innovator, career shortened by WWI, post career contributions.

He is also the forefather of SV% - first reporter to include SOGs in his stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_LeSueur

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01-06-2013, 04:50 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think that he's the one the from his generation who really needs to be on our top 40 list (if we expand to top 50, we can consider thinking about adding Moran or Hern).
Are there enough votes for each goaltender on our aggregate list to warrant this? If there are, it sounds great, but it might be wrong to vote on goaltenders that did not appear on a healthy majority of the Top-60 lists.

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01-06-2013, 05:03 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Are there enough votes for each goaltender on our aggregate list to warrant this? If there are, it sounds great, but it might be wrong to vote on goaltenders that did not appear on a healthy majority of the Top-60 lists.
There is enough of a sample to expand to a top 50 if we choose, but not a top 60. We'll hold a vote on whether to expand at the same time as Vote 9 - details will be posted in the next discussion thread


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01-06-2013, 05:04 PM
  #161
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The case for Vachon over Giacomin

1. Arguably stronger regular season resume
Giacomin's All-Star Team voting record is the best left up for voting (Barrasso's Vezina record is impressive as well), but they aren't as strong seasons as the awards would make you think. Vachon's 1975 season should unquestionably be recognized as the best season either had despite what the PHWA results tell us.

Vachon's regular season career compares favorably to Giacomin's. Based on save percentage and derivative metrics like GARG we can argue that Vachon's regular season career was actually more impressive.

Best Regular Seasons
 YearTeamGPRecordSV% (Average)RankGAARankGDGARGAll-Star Voting
Vachon1975LAK5427-14-13.926% (.890%)1/252.24 GAA2/2561.886.52nd Team
Giacomin1967NYR6830-27-11.917% (.907%)3/62.61 GAA4/624.055.11st Team
Vachon1977LAK6833-23-12.903% (.891%)8/312.71 GAA7/3125.053.52nd Team
Vachon1974LAK6528-26-10.904% (.896%)6/212.80 GAA6/2115.242.54th
Giacomin1971NYR4527-10-7.922% (.903%)2/222.16 GAA2/2223.041.11st Team
Vachon1970MON6431-18-12.917% (.912%)7/152.63 GAA6/1510.840.18th
Giacomin1968NYR6636-20-10.915% (.910%)6/192.44 GAA5/1911.539.82nd Team
Giacomin1969NYR7037-23-7.912% (.908%)T7/162.55 GAA5/168.738.62nd Team
Giacomin1970NYR7035-21-14.916% (.912%)8/152.36 GAA4/158.537.62nd Team
Vachon1971MON4723-12-9.914% (.903%)9/222.65 GAA7/2214.935.4 
Vachon1978LAK7029-27-13.891% (.889%)12/252.86 GAA11/255.132.24th
Vachon1973LAK5322-20-10.899% (.896%)T13/232.85 GAAT7/234.826.810th
Vachon1976LAK5126-20-5.891% (.890%)9/263.14 GAA9/261.923.9 
Giacomin1973NYR4326-11-6.899% (.896%)T13/232.91 GAAT10/234.623.26th


2. Backup goalie performances
Another distinction between these regular season numbers is the performance of their backups. Vachon's Montreal days were part of a platoon, but none of his goalie partners in LA could match his performance. Gilles Villemure matched and outperformed Giacomin at times.

Giacomin's Backups
 GPW-L-TSV%GAA
1967 NYR    
Giacomin6830-27-11.9172.61
Maniago60-1-1.8813.84
1968 NYR    
Giacomin6636-20-10.9152.44
Villemure41-2-0.9342.40
Simmons52-1-2.8982.60
1969 NYR    
Giacomin7037-23-7.9122.55
Simmons51-1-1.9222.33
Villemure42-1-1.9212.25
1970 NYR    
Giacomin7035-21-14.9162.36
Sawchuk83-1-2.8922.91
1971 NYR    
Giacomin4527-10-7.9222.16
Villemure3422-8-4.9192.30
1972 NYR    
Giacomin4424-10-9.9002.70
Villemure3724-7-4.9132.09
1973 NYR    
Giacomin4326-11-6.8992.91
Villemure3412-2-3.9102.29
1974 NYR    
Giacomin5630-15-10.8903.07
Villemure217-7-3.8803.53
McDuffe63-2-1.9043.18
1975 NYR    
Villemure4522-14-6.8883.16
Giacomin3713-12-8.8703.48
D. Wilson31-2-0.8514.33
Ridley21-1.8335.19

Vachon's Backups
 GPW-L-TSV%GAA
1968 MTL    
Worsley4021-7-8.9221.98
Vachon3921-15-2.9132.48
1969 MTL    
Vachon3622-9-3.9022.87
Worsley3019-5-4.9202.25
Esposito135-4-4.9132.73
Wakely10-1-0.8524.00
1970 MTL    
Vachon6431-18-12.9172.63
Myre104-3-2.9232.27
Worsley63-1-2.9152.33
1971 MTL    
Vachon4723-12-9.9142.65
Myre3013-11-4.9043.11
1972 LAK    
G. Edwards4413-23-5.8983.59
Vachon286-18-3.8844.05
1973 LAK    
Vachon5322-20-10.8992.85
G. Edwards279-16-1.8773.62
1974 LAK    
Vachon6528-26-10.9042.80
G. Edwards185-7-2.8893.23
1975 LAK    
Vachon5427-14-13.9262.24
G. Edwards273-8-3.9162.34
1976 LAK     
Vachon5126-20-5.8913.14
G. Edwards2912-13-4.8753.55
1977 LAK    
Vachon6833-23-12.9032.71
G. Edwards10.8524.67 
Simmons41-2-1.8644.00
1978 LAK    
Vachon7029-27-13.8912.86
Simmons132-7-2.8693.81


3. Playoffs
Neither goalie was a meaningful figure in the playoffs. Vachon played 19 games with the dynasty Habs and posted the best season between either as part of a tandem with Gump Worsley in 1969. I think there's reason to doubt how valuable Vachon was during that playoff run, but it still stands above anything Giacomin put together.

Vachon - Playoff GVT: +10.6
Best 3 playoffs by GVT: +10.0 (1969), +2.6 (1975), +2.4 (1976)
Worst 3 playoffs GVT: -4.1 (1978), -3.2 (1977), -1.4 (1981)

Giacomin - Playoff GVT: -7.7
Best 3 playoffs by GVT: +3.7 (1971), +1.9 (1973), +1.1 (1972)
Worst 3 playoffs GVT: -5.7 (1975), -4.7 (1970), -2.8 (1967)


Giacomin's legacy rests on those 5 years he was named to the First or Second All-Star team, yet Vachon put up comparable seasons by SV% in years he didn't win awards. Giacomin has no seasons where he was 30 goals above a replacement level goalie that didn't end with an All-Star team spot, but Vachon has 4. When you consider that Vachon put his best seasons up in LA with backup goalies incapable of matching his numbers I think he separates himself even further as Giacomin wasn't really outshining Villemure by 1971. Finally, I see the playoffs as the icing on the cake. Giacomin is a notorious underachiever, whereas Vachon took advantage of a strong team situation to capture his only Stanley Cup. Not a huge swing in Vachon's favor, but imagine how different Giacomin would be regarded with just one Stanley Cup.


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01-06-2013, 05:09 PM
  #162
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Vachon seems to be hurt in the awards voting (especially compared to Giacomin) by the fact that Dryden, Esposito, and Parent had established themselves by the time he was having his best seasons in LA. Competition in 1974 was much stronger than in 1970.

Was Giacomin much of a puck handler? If he was, that isn't taken into account by save percentages. The article overpass posted seemed to indicate that he was something of a puck handler, though I had never heard that before.

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01-06-2013, 05:23 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Vachon seems to be hurt in the awards voting (especially compared to Giacomin) by the fact that Dryden, Esposito, and Parent had established themselves by the time he was having his best seasons in LA. Competition in 1974 was much stronger than in 1970.

Was Giacomin much of a puck handler? If he was, that isn't taken into account by save percentages. The article overpass posted seemed to indicate that he was something of a puck handler, though I had never heard that before.
LA vs. NY has to be at least a bit of a factor too, right? vachon isn't just competing with three elite goalies, but three elite goals all in major hockey markets in the eastern or central time zone.

i'm curious: in recent months, i've seen a lot of people on this board saying that villemure outperformed giacomin. has anyone gone back to see if villemure got mostly starts against expansion teams?

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01-06-2013, 05:39 PM
  #164
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Puckhandler

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Vachon seems to be hurt in the awards voting (especially compared to Giacomin) by the fact that Dryden, Esposito, and Parent had established themselves by the time he was having his best seasons in LA. Competition in 1974 was much stronger than in 1970.

Was Giacomin much of a puck handler? If he was, that isn't taken into account by save percentages. The article overpass posted seemed to indicate that he was something of a puck handler, though I had never heard that before.
First, not sure what you include in puckhandling? Is on ice communications and zone management part of the package?

Giacomin would be top 1/3 of puckhandlers amongst contemporaries but the gap in the NHL top to bottom at that time was very small, so the impact on SV% would be minimal amongst the goalies from his era.

Today the difference is huge but will refrain from further comment until there is a clarification of puckhandling.

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01-06-2013, 05:44 PM
  #165
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1971-72

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
LA vs. NY has to be at least a bit of a factor too, right? vachon isn't just competing with three elite goalies, but three elite goals all in major hockey markets in the eastern or central time zone.

i'm curious: in recent months, i've seen a lot of people on this board saying that villemure outperformed giacomin. has anyone gone back to see if villemure got mostly starts against expansion teams?
Yes. Provided the 1971-72 numbers up thread. Villemure basically was used against non-playoff teams and expansion teams. Giacomin had 14 combined starts against Boston, Chicago and Montreal, teams that competed with the Rangers for 1st overall. Villemure had 4 starts against these teams, only 1 on the road.

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01-06-2013, 05:45 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Vachon seems to be hurt in the awards voting (especially compared to Giacomin) by the fact that Dryden, Esposito, and Parent had established themselves by the time he was having his best seasons in LA. Competition in 1974 was much stronger than in 1970.

Was Giacomin much of a puck handler? If he was, that isn't taken into account by save percentages. The article overpass posted seemed to indicate that he was something of a puck handler, though I had never heard that before.
It doesn't show up in save percentage, but I think it's an important variable that never would - like shot quality.

Personally, I think a guy like Brodeur's GARG seems to be way more influenced by arena bias/shot undercounting than the number of opportunities he denies with puckhandling - Plante's gaudy GARG figures corroborate this theory.

I do think it's important to account for what the numbers never will though and Park's quote is pretty glowing.

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01-06-2013, 05:54 PM
  #167
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Very Doubtful

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
It doesn't show up in save percentage, but I think it's an important variable that never would - like shot quality.

Personally, I think a guy like Brodeur's GARG seems to be way more influenced by arena bias/shot undercounting than the number of opportunities he denies with puckhandling - Plante's gaudy GARG figures corroborate this theory.

I do think it's important to account for what the numbers never will though and Park's quote is pretty glowing.
Define puckhandling and we will discuss further. Main issue is what gets thru and gets counted as a SOG and why.

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01-06-2013, 06:03 PM
  #168
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Define puckhandling and we will discuss further. Main issue is what gets thru and gets counted as a SOG and why.
The ability to serve as a "third defenseman" and thwart chances before they begin. I think that moreso than being a boon to the transition game is what I was responding to.

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01-06-2013, 06:56 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i'm curious: in recent months, i've seen a lot of people on this board saying that villemure outperformed giacomin. has anyone gone back to see if villemure got mostly starts against expansion teams?
Here are the numbers for Giacomin and Villemure in 1970-71.

Ed Giacomin's opponents
Date Location Opponent Opponent W% Opponent GF/G
10-Oct-70 Road STL 0.558 2.86
14-Oct-70 Home BUF 0.404 2.78
18-Oct-70 Home MON 0.622 3.73
21-Oct-70 Home TOR 0.526 3.18
25-Oct-70 Home CALI 0.288 2.55
28-Oct-70 Home DET 0.353 2.68
31-Oct-70 Road BOS 0.776 5.12
4-Nov-70 Road CALI 0.288 2.55
11-Nov-70 Home PIT 0.397 2.83
15-Nov-70 Home TOR 0.526 3.18
21-Nov-70 Road MON 0.622 3.73
25-Nov-70 Road PHI 0.468 2.65
28-Nov-70 Home BOS 0.776 5.12
29-Nov-70 Home PIT 0.397 2.83
5-Dec-70 Road TOR 0.526 3.18
8-Dec-70 Road VAN 0.359 2.94
9-Dec-70 Road LAK 0.404 3.06
11-Dec-70 Road CALI 0.288 2.55
16-Dec-70 Home BUF 0.404 2.78
20-Dec-70 Home VAN 0.359 2.94
22-Dec-70 Road BUF 0.404 2.78
26-Dec-70 Road DET 0.353 2.68
29-Dec-70 Home CALI 0.288 2.55
3-Jan-71 Home MON 0.622 3.73
10-Jan-71 Road STL 0.558 2.86
15-Jan-71 Road CALI 0.288 2.55
20-Jan-71 Home PHI 0.468 2.65
24-Jan-71 Home MINS 0.462 2.45
27-Jan-71 Home BOS 0.776 5.12
31-Jan-71 Home LAK 0.404 3.06
3-Feb-71 Home CHI 0.686 3.55
20-Feb-71 Road PIT 0.397 2.83
21-Feb-71 Home DET 0.353 2.68
24-Feb-71 Home PHI 0.468 2.65
27-Feb-71 Road PIT 0.397 2.83
28-Feb-71 Home VAN 0.359 2.94
3-Mar-71 Home CALI 0.288 2.55
6-Mar-71 Road DET 0.353 2.68
10-Mar-71 Road CHI 0.686 3.55
14-Mar-71 Home TOR 0.526 3.18
20-Mar-71 Road TOR 0.526 3.18
21-Mar-71 Home MON 0.622 3.73
27-Mar-71 Road BOS 0.776 5.12
31-Mar-71 Home CHI 0.686 3.55
4-Apr-71 Home DET 0.353 2.68

Gilles Villemure's opponents

Date Location Opponent Opponent W% Opponent GF/G
17-Oct-70 Road TOR 0.526 3.18
24-Oct-70 Road MINS 0.462 2.45
1-Nov-70 Home CHI 0.686 3.55
7-Nov-70 Road LAK 0.404 3.06
14-Nov-70 Road CHI 0.686 3.55
18-Nov-70 Road LAK 0.404 3.06
22-Nov-70 Home MINS 0.462 2.45
26-Nov-70 Road BUF 0.404 2.78
2-Dec-70 Home STL 0.558 2.86
6-Dec-70 Home VAN 0.359 2.94
9-Dec-70 Road LAK 0.404 3.06
13-Dec-70 Home LAK 0.404 3.06
19-Dec-70 Road MINS 0.462 2.45
23-Dec-70 Home PIT 0.397 2.83
27-Dec-70 Home STL 0.558 2.86
2-Jan-71 Road PIT 0.397 2.83
9-Jan-71 Road MINS 0.462 2.45
12-Jan-71 Road VAN 0.359 2.94
17-Jan-71 Road CHI 0.686 3.55
21-Jan-71 Road BUF 0.404 2.78
30-Jan-71 Road PHI 0.468 2.65
4-Feb-71 Road DET 0.353 2.68
6-Feb-71 Road VAN 0.359 2.94
9-Feb-71 Road BOS 0.776 5.12
10-Feb-71 Home MINS 0.462 2.45
13-Feb-71 Road STL 0.558 2.86
14-Feb-71 Home STL 0.558 2.86
17-Feb-71 Road MON 0.622 3.73
7-Mar-71 Home LAK 0.404 3.06
12-Mar-71 Home PHI 0.468 2.65
18-Mar-71 Road PHI 0.468 2.65
23-Mar-71 Home BUF 0.404 2.78
28-Mar-71 Home BOS 0.776 5.12
3-Apr-71 Road MON 0.622 3.73

Giacomin played 26 home games and 18 road games. The average opponent he faced had an 0.476 winning percentage and scored 3.14 goals per game. The median opponent he faced had an 0.404 winning percentage and scored 2.86 goals per game.

Villemure played 13 home games and 20 road games. The average opponent he faced had an 0.494 winning percentage and scored 3.06 goals per game. The median opponent he faced had an 0.462 winning percentage and scored 2.86 goals per game.

For 1970-71, it looks clear that Villemure played a tougher schedule. His average opponent was slightly better, if slightly lower scoring, and more importantly he played 60% of his games on the road.

1971-72

Giacomin
Date Location Opponent Opponent W% Opponent GF/G
9-Oct-71 Road MON 0.692 3.94
10-Oct-71 Road BOS 0.763 4.23
13-Oct-71 Home BOS 0.763 4.23
17-Oct-71 Home MON 0.692 3.94
23-Oct-71 Road STL 0.429 2.67
27-Oct-71 Home DET 0.487 3.35
31-Oct-71 Home TOR 0.513 2.68
6-Nov-71 Road VAN 0.308 2.60
13-Nov-71 Home BUF 0.327 2.60
20-Nov-71 Road MINS 0.551 2.72
24-Nov-71 Home STL 0.429 2.67
28-Nov-71 Road PHI 0.423 2.56
4-Dec-71 Road PIT 0.423 2.82
8-Dec-71 Road CHI 0.686 3.28
12-Dec-71 Home PIT 0.423 2.82
16-Dec-71 Road BOS 0.763 4.23
19-Dec-71 Home MINS 0.551 2.72
25-Dec-71 Road MINS 0.551 2.72
29-Dec-71 Home PHI 0.423 2.56
5-Jan-72 Home STL 0.429 2.67
12-Jan-72 Road CHI 0.686 3.28
15-Jan-72 Road TOR 0.513 2.68
26-Jan-72 Home BUF 0.327 2.60
30-Jan-72 Home MINS 0.551 2.72
2-Feb-72 Home BOS 0.763 4.23
5-Feb-72 Road STL 0.429 2.67
9-Feb-72 Home CHI 0.686 3.28
12-Feb-72 Road PIT 0.423 2.82
15-Feb-72 Road VAN 0.308 2.60
18-Feb-72 Road CALI 0.385 2.77
20-Feb-72 Home DET 0.487 3.35
22-Feb-72 Road MON 0.692 3.94
27-Feb-72 Home STL 0.429 2.67
2-Mar-72 Road BUF 0.327 2.60
8-Mar-72 Home CHI 0.686 3.28
11-Mar-72 Road DET 0.487 3.35
15-Mar-72 Road CHI 0.686 3.28
16-Mar-72 Road DET 0.487 3.35
18-Mar-72 Road PHI 0.423 2.56
19-Mar-72 Home TOR 0.513 2.68
23-Mar-72 Road BOS 0.763 4.23
26-Mar-72 Home MINS 0.551 2.72
29-Mar-72 Home DET 0.487 3.35
2-Apr-72 Home MON 0.692 3.94

Villemure
Date Location Opponent Opponent W% Opponent GF/G
16-Oct-71 Road TOR 0.513 2.68
20-Oct-71 Home CHI 0.686 3.28
24-Oct-71 Home PIT 0.423 2.82
30-Oct-71 Road PIT 0.423 2.82
3-Nov-71 Road LAK 0.314 2.64
5-Nov-71 Road CALI 0.385 2.77
10-Nov-71 Home LAK 0.314 2.64
14-Nov-71 Home VAN 0.308 2.60
21-Nov-71 Home CALI 0.385 2.77
27-Nov-71 Road DET 0.487 3.35
1-Dec-71 Home BUF 0.327 2.60
5-Dec-71 Home VAN 0.308 2.60
9-Dec-71 Road PHI 0.423 2.56
15-Dec-71 Home PHI 0.423 2.56
16-Dec-71 Road BOS 0.763 4.23
18-Dec-71 Road STL 0.429 2.67
22-Dec-71 Home PIT 0.423 2.82
26-Dec-71 Home MON 0.692 3.94
2-Jan-72 Home BOS 0.763 4.23
9-Jan-72 Home LAK 0.314 2.64
13-Jan-72 Road BUF 0.327 2.60
19-Jan-72 Road LAK 0.314 2.64
21-Jan-72 Road CALI 0.385 2.77
22-Jan-72 Road VAN 0.308 2.60
29-Jan-72 Road MINS 0.551 2.72
3-Feb-72 Road BUF 0.327 2.60
6-Feb-72 Home TOR 0.513 2.68
13-Feb-72 Home LAK 0.314 2.64
17-Feb-72 Road LAK 0.314 2.64
23-Feb-72 Home PHI 0.423 2.56
1-Mar-72 Home CALI 0.385 2.77
5-Mar-72 Home VAN 0.308 2.60
12-Mar-72 Home CALI 0.385 2.77
25-Mar-72 Road MON 0.692 3.94
26-Mar-72 Home MINS 0.551 2.72
1-Apr-72 Road TOR 0.513 2.68
2-Apr-72 Home MON 0.692 3.94

Giacomin played 21 home games and 22 road games. The average opponent he faced had an 0.532 winning percentage and scored 3.11 goals per game. The median opponent he faced had an 0.500 winning percentage and scored 2.79 goals per game.

Villemure played 17 home games and 20 road games. The average opponent he faced had an 0.443 winning percentage and scored 2.89 goals per game. The median opponent he faced had an 0.423 winning percentage and scored 2.68 goals per game.

Giacomin undoubtedly played a more difficult slate of opponents in 1971-72.

1972-73

Giacomin
Date Location Opponent Opponent W% Opponent GF/G
7-Oct-72 Road DET 0.551 3.40
8-Oct-72 Road CHI 0.596 3.64
11-Oct-72 Home VAN 0.340 2.99
14-Oct-72 Road MON 0.769 4.22
5-Nov-72 Road PHI 0.545 3.79
8-Nov-72 Home VAN 0.340 2.99
11-Nov-72 Home CALI 0.308 2.73
12-Nov-72 Home LAK 0.468 2.97
15-Nov-72 Home PHI 0.545 3.79
19-Nov-72 Home PIT 0.468 3.29
23-Nov-72 Road BUF 0.564 3.29
29-Nov-72 Road LAK 0.468 2.97
3-Dec-72 Home ATLF 0.417 2.45
9-Dec-72 Home NYR 0.654 3.81
13-Dec-72 Road TOR 0.410 3.17
16-Dec-72 Road MINS 0.545 3.26
20-Dec-72 Road STL 0.487 2.99
24-Dec-72 Home DET 0.551 3.40
31-Dec-72 Home STL 0.487 2.99
3-Jan-73 Home LAK 0.468 2.97
6-Jan-73 Home BUF 0.564 3.29
7-Jan-73 Home PIT 0.468 3.29
11-Jan-73 Road BUF 0.564 3.29
13-Jan-73 Road STL 0.487 2.99
14-Jan-73 Road PHI 0.545 3.79
17-Jan-73 Road LAK 0.468 2.97
20-Jan-73 Road VAN 0.340 2.99
24-Jan-73 Home BOS 0.686 4.23
27-Jan-73 Road DET 0.551 3.40
3-Feb-73 Road BOS 0.686 4.23
7-Feb-73 Home NYR 0.654 3.81
11-Feb-73 Home MON 0.769 4.22
15-Feb-73 Road BUF 0.564 3.29
21-Feb-73 Road LAK 0.468 2.97
25-Feb-73 Home MINS 0.545 3.26
28-Feb-73 Home CHI 0.596 3.64
7-Mar-73 Home PHI 0.545 3.79
10-Mar-73 Road PIT 0.468 3.29
11-Mar-73 Home TOR 0.410 3.17
14-Mar-73 Road CHI 0.596 3.64
17-Mar-73 Road TOR 0.410 3.17
31-Mar-73 Road MON 0.769 4.22
1-Apr-73 Home DET 0.551 3.40

Villemure
Date Location Opponent Opponent W% Opponent GF/G
15-Oct-72 Home MINS 0.545 3.26
18-Oct-72 Home BOS 0.686 4.23
21-Oct-72 Home NYR 0.654 3.81
22-Oct-72 Home MON 0.769 4.22
25-Oct-72 Home PHI 0.545 3.79
29-Oct-72 Home CHI 0.596 3.64
1-Nov-72 Road CHI 0.596 3.64
4-Nov-72 Road PIT 0.468 3.29
18-Nov-72 Road STL 0.487 2.99
21-Nov-72 Road ATLF 0.417 2.45
26-Nov-72 Home TOR 0.410 3.17
28-Nov-72 Road VAN 0.340 2.99
1-Dec-72 Road CALI 0.308 2.73
6-Dec-72 Home BUF 0.564 3.29
14-Dec-72 Road BOS 0.686 4.23
17-Dec-72 Home PIT 0.468 3.29
21-Dec-72 Home ATLF 0.417 2.45
27-Dec-72 Home BUF 0.564 3.29
19-Jan-73 Road CALI 0.308 2.73
28-Jan-73 Home TOR 0.410 3.17
31-Jan-73 Home CALI 0.308 2.73
4-Feb-73 Home ATLF 0.417 2.45
10-Feb-73 Home NYR 0.654 3.81
14-Feb-73 Road MON 0.769 4.22
18-Feb-73 Home NYR 0.654 3.81
23-Feb-73 Road CALI 0.308 2.73
3-Mar-73 Road DET 0.551 3.40
4-Mar-73 Home VAN 0.340 2.99
18-Mar-73 Home STL 0.487 2.99
20-Mar-73 Road MINS 0.545 3.26
22-Mar-73 Road ATLF 0.417 2.45
24-Mar-73 Road BOS 0.686 4.23
25-Mar-73 Home MINS 0.545 3.26
28-Mar-73 Home BOS 0.686 4.23

Giacomin played 21 home games and 22 road games. The average opponent he faced had an 0.528 winning percentage and scored 3.38 goals per game. The median opponent he faced had an 0.545 winning percentage and scored 3.29 goals per game.

Villemure played 20 home games and 14 road games. The average opponent he faced had an 0.518 winning percentage and scored 3.33 goals per game. The median opponent he faced had an 0.545 winning percentage and scored 3.28 goals per game.

Giacomin played a slightly more difficult schedule than Villemure in 1972-73, with very slightly better opponents on average and more road games.


Last edited by overpass: 01-06-2013 at 07:34 PM.
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01-06-2013, 07:02 PM
  #170
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
If you insist. 1968, Bruins were swept in four, but lead in three, 1969, Bruins lead in two of the four games they lost.1971, excluding game 2 which was EJ, Bruins led in two of the three loses with Cheevers.Prime or late career, it did not matter
I didn't insist on anything.

You made the point that the Bruins lost leads to Montreal 13 times in the playoffs with Cheevers in goal. No one denied it.

But, as Mr. Taco MacArthur stated to me earlier:

Don't tell me what his teams did; tell me what he did.

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01-06-2013, 07:09 PM
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[QUOTE=TheDevilMadeMe;57191441]I think this is probably true, as well.

I mean, Giacomin's playoff performances are pretty uniquely bad. Usually if a goalie bombs so badly several times in a row, he's replaced, but instead of replacing Giacomin, the Rangers brought in a tandem partner.



I value prime, not peak per say. As in an extended period of time when a player is close to his best. But even so, I'm sure it would be incredibly easy to find a single article by a single reporter calling every post-expansion goalie available "the best in the league" at some point. I don't put much stock into a single quote, unless it is a well-respected "hockey guy," and even then I try to find more support.

Anyway, Giacomin was 1st Team All Star twice - three seasons apart from each other, so it's not like he was blowing the competition away (none of the goalies available now were blowing the competition away, except maybe LeSueur).



Even though his save percentage numbers are unimpressive?[/QUOTE]

Well, we aren't voting for the all-time top 5 right now, are we?

Besides, clearly he was a victim of under-counting.

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01-06-2013, 07:11 PM
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Cheever's OT record is not very good for a "money goalie". 7-10, with 8 of the games ending with him making 1 or less saves, a 4-4 record with a total of 3 saves. 3-6 in games ending in less than 5 minutes of OT.
I guess he's similar to you know who in terms of OT record.

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01-06-2013, 07:31 PM
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Please Clarify

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
The ability to serve as a "third defenseman" and thwart chances before they begin. I think that moreso than being a boon to the transition game is what I was responding to.
Please clarify. Last 20 years the goalie is the only defensive zone player who can freeze the puck and dictate faceoffs with little risk of a penalty.

Also the "Delay of Game" rules have changed in the last 20 years, impacting how and when a goalie handles the puck.

Are such activities under the thwart chances umbrella.

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01-06-2013, 07:52 PM
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Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Please clarify. Last 20 years the goalie is the only defensive zone player who can freeze the puck and dictate faceoffs with little risk of a penalty.

Also the "Delay of Game" rules have changed in the last 20 years, impacting how and when a goalie handles the puck.

Are such activities under the thwart chances umbrella.
Might be more productive if you share how you believe it does or doesn't impact SV%. That's really what will be interesting to read, and you introduced the idea of eras having an impact which I never considered.

I'm just not sure what you're asking. I'm claiming being able to reduce shots against/quality shots against through the ability to coolly clear/cover the puck won't really have a great effect on seasons of saves and shots against.

A superior puck-handler certainly has particular value, but is it enough to drastically reduce the amount/quality of shots against on a yearly basis compared to a goalie who is below average at moving the puck that we need to consider it like arena biases?

I just think talking about the effect of puckhandling on SV% seems like a roundabout way of saying SV% doesn't account for shot quality.


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01-06-2013, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
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Here are the numbers for Giacomin and Villemure in 1970-71.

Giacomin played 21 home games and 22 road games. The average opponent he faced had an 0.532 winning percentage and scored 3.11 goals per game. The median opponent he faced had an 0.500 winning percentage and scored 2.79 goals per game.

Villemure played 17 home games and 20 road games. The average opponent he faced had an 0.443 winning percentage and scored 2.89 goals per game. The median opponent he faced had an 0.423 winning percentage and scored 2.68 goals per game.

Giacomin undoubtedly played a more difficult slate of opponents in 1971-72.
Actually, it looks to me like splitting road games was always part of the platooning plan in '70/71, but Giacomin was used twice as much at home, and Villemure's selected opponents in the home games he did get, regardless of strength, were primarily non-divisional rivals until the very end of the season with playoff berths already sewn up. Looks like Giacomin was very much treated like the #1 goalie of a tandem by his coach in '70/71. I think it goes without saying that division games, particularly at home, come with a lot more pressure, making the work load more "difficult".

Also, with regards to the record of opponent, is there any correction done/needed for teams that they both played that year? For example, Buffalo is treated like a 0.404 team for both guys for the entire season, but technically they're a 0.393 team if Villemure's games (1-0-2) are removed, and similarly 0.420 if Giacomin's 3 wins against them (3-0-0, 2 shutouts) are removed. With that 0.017 difference in mind I'd find it odd that you would classify a 0.018 difference in "unaltered" points percentage to be a "clearly tougher schedule".

I'm not sure the raw numbers clearly show anything, to be honest. I mean, teams couldn't pick their starters in November based on what the future end of season stats would bear out in terms of who should have been considered "stronger" opposition, either, so you can only assume that the best judges of talent that the team had chose the better goalie to handle more of the "harder" jobs when those decisions had to be made.

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