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Ideas on how to break the cycle of lockouts?

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Old
12-23-2012, 10:16 AM
  #1
KingWantsCup
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Ideas on how to break the cycle of lockouts?

This is all I could think of...

1.) Fire Bettman.

2.) Both sides agree to an arbitration council to determine their CBA's in the future if an agreement is not made in X amount of time. (Super, uber unlikely)


Any other ideas fellas?

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Old
12-23-2012, 10:42 AM
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Confucius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
This is all I could think of...

1.) Fire Bettman.

2.) Both sides agree to an arbitration council to determine their CBA's in the future if an agreement is not made in X amount of time. (Super, uber unlikely)


Any other ideas fellas?
The first one covers it. When is the next BoG vote?

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Old
12-23-2012, 10:50 AM
  #3
Actual Thought
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1. The removal of Bettman

2. Meaningful revenue sharing

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Old
12-23-2012, 10:57 AM
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KingsFan7824
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More TV money, or just like 12-16 teams in the northeast corridor.

Failing that, the PA, Fehr, and the players need to understand where they stack up in the sports world.

I'd get the players side more if, at some point during the last 7 years, the players that had the choice had gone and played in other leagues around the world when their contracts were up. Yet they kept signing in the NHL, WITH all the financial and contractual restrictions that the PA in general defines as draconian, or screwed, or bent over, etc.

If the players hate Bettman, and don't trust the owners, why would they continue to play in this league since 2005? Why would they extend the CBA another year last year? Why would they bump up the cap last summer?

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Old
12-23-2012, 11:01 AM
  #5
NJDevs26
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Or the baseball solution...torpedo a season and have Fehr clean the league's clock in court so they can't dictate CBA's anymore.

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12-23-2012, 11:12 AM
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Ah yes the good ole "it's all Bettman's fault and if he weren't involved there would be no lockout".

Anyways, to actually add something productive to this conversation, the only you can stop the use of a lockout as the main tactic in negotiations is by also removing the strike as a tactic.

The only thing that I can think of is to extend the CBA however it's done in such a way that teams and players recieve only 80% of monies owed while the rest goes into basically escrow and the rest will be re-distributed to the owners and players modified to whatever new economic system once the new CBA is signed.

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Old
12-23-2012, 11:15 AM
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pepty
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Firing Bettman wouldn't make any difference. Any commissioner would do the same in any league- as did the NBA and the NFL. Thanks to one Mr Donald Fehr, no League will be stupid enough to put themselves at the mercy of their PA who will wait until the players collect their money and then strike just before the playoffs.

The difference is that with the other leagues, the bargaining started before the season, which helped to limit the damage. Fehr refused to do that as he said he had to get up to speed,and as is increasingly clear, he is a deadline negotiater anyway, believing he will get the best deal if he waits and stonewalls to increase pressure on the league.

Also the other leagues did not have to deal with an obstreperous PA , run first by Bob Goodenow with Fehr as a"kitchen cabinet" adviser and now with Fehr himself.

The way to avoid lockouts and to limit their damage is to have the longest possible CBA , 10 years or more, and then start negotiating in earnest prior to the end of the old CBA.

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Old
12-23-2012, 11:16 AM
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Having a player from each team working directly with each owner, present in every owners' meeting, total openness.

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Old
12-23-2012, 11:20 AM
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thinkwild
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I believe there was an NHL Fans Association created last time. All season ticket holders and ticket buyers should agree to purchase their seats through a central Fan Association Ticket purchasing association. This association negotiates a deal with NHL, in a take it or leave it fashion, that 5% of all ticket purchases are going to be held in escrow, and will be returned to them 1 day after the successful conclusion of a negotiated cba that didnt involve any missed games.

We could call it revenue certainty.

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Old
12-23-2012, 11:34 AM
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haseoke39
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Enough profit.

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Old
12-23-2012, 12:19 PM
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Killion
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Enough profit.
And just who is going to decide that? The more money you make the more you spend, the more you need to keep afloat. Who are we, the executive offices at the NHL or anyone else for that matter to tell owner X, Y or Z how much is enough? Life, business doesnt work like that. Now Im pro-PA, however, I quite frankly believe that even 50% of HRR's is a bite too much; existing RS model inadequate; lack of co-operative efforts in marketing the game properly; no serious long term support structure for the flailing. But to tell Tenenbaum, the Molsons or Aquilini's, Wirtz or Jacobs "sorry, you can only make this ________ or this _______ in profits in any given year, the rest being distributed to teams in trouble"? Not a chance.

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Old
12-23-2012, 12:28 PM
  #12
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This has to be the silliest of questions...

How about starting talks prior to a month before the season?
How about attempting to negotiate of the owner's format rather than submitting offers based on a format you know they won't accept?
How about the PA submit an extensive list of demands that can be established at the onset of talks instead of repeatedly moving the proverbial goal post everytime the owners meet the PA's demands on a certain item?

These are Fehr's tactics and while they get results for the players they also lead to work stoppage.

Until the PA agrees to play ball with the owners there is no "cycle of lockouts": all we have had are two sides demands but the PA takes the hardline approach and forces the owners' hands.

The owners told the PA over a year ago that the CBA was coming to an end and that they needed a CBA to resume playing. The PA refused to address the owners concerns and here we are.

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Old
12-23-2012, 12:30 PM
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I fail to see how firing Bettman changes the fact that the owners unanimously voted to lock the players out.

Though it's amusing how people think it's that simple.

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12-23-2012, 12:34 PM
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Xref
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Fire Fehr.

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Old
12-23-2012, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
I fail to see how firing Bettman changes the fact that the owners unanimously voted to lock the players out.

Though it's amusing how people think it's that simple.
It's not that simple. But it's also obvious that Bettman's bullying attitude has been hugely detrimental in creating the kind of dynamic that would allow a deal to be done. He's also chosen to pursue a hard line from the very beginning.

It's obvious he just doesn't understand that's he's dealing with people who have a lot of pride (which makes them good at what they do).

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12-23-2012, 12:37 PM
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Once the CBA failed to happen before the setart of the season the lockout was guaranteed.

So how you break the cycle of the lockouts, is you get a CBA done before they need to start. It's as "simple" as that. All it takes is both sides -- yes, both sides, the owners AND THE NHLPA being fully prepared to make the concessions it requires to get that done.

That's what it takes. And that's all it takes. Problem is it only takes one of the ownership or the union being utterly unprepared to do this and you're on a one way ticket to lockout.

That's what the Bettman bashers don't get. However you may feel about how the owners have handled the negotiations, you don't hire Don Fehr because you're fully prepared to quickly agree with ownership and get the season going. That's not what he's here to do. By hiring him the players signaled they weren't going to agree quickly, so you CAN'T just single out the owners as the reason the lockout is happening.

And no, no owner is going to be crazy enough to play without a CBA with Don Fehr leading the union. That was tried once, and the results speak for themselves. The reason it hasn't happened since is no league has been dumb enough to put themselves in a position to risk such a thing happening again. That's why we're locked out -- Fehr demonstrated what the worst case scenario was, and the owners *have to* protect themselves against it.

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Old
12-23-2012, 01:26 PM
  #17
thinkwild
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When Fehr led the players on strike in baseball at the end of that fated season, i would first note that it was resolved when the courts slapped the owners down.

But more importantly, to the leverage at the heart of such a maneuver, there was no escrow back then. If Fehr tried that now while the NHL is withholding paycheques in escrow accounts, it would not have nearly the same effect would it? I mean c'mon, its night and day.

But i agree, there is no sense playing while negotiating; not playing is the leverage to get a deal. Threatening to walk out before the playoffs would probably annoy the players more than the owners when there is escrow in place.


And how can it be said with a straight face still that this would have all been solved by now had they started negotiating in the summer? I mean that seems to be self evidently false to me as we watch the deadline hunters play out the pattern it seems every lawyer in the nation now requires before getting a deal done. What big problem with two adversarial combatants have we seen recently that was solved amicably before the deadline? Hopefully there are some to restore my faith in humanity.

Fehr is of course just as much a deadline hunter as Bettman. Yes the players wanted that. Why? Because that is the game Bettman has demonstrated over and over again that he plays - deadline hunting. And he has some of the nastiest, best paid people in the world helping out in that regard.

Of course it would have been nice if they could have solved this in the summer. If only the players saw the commissioner as some honest, trustworthy guy with everyone's best interests at heart, doing only what is necessary for the health of the game. Maybe the owners should try hiring a commissioner that is cuddly, loveable, and trustworthy, if they want the players to stop being so obstinate here.

But as Bettman himself says, what's love or trust got to do with it. It's just hard bargaining. Its the way the cba game has been structured by the owners. The players have to play it. If you want to change it, change begins at the top.

If this was 2004 the answer would be obvious to all - a salary cap with linkage where both sides are partners sharing together as they work together to make revenues grow. How could that possibly go wrong?

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12-23-2012, 01:51 PM
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There is nothing of substance in that post to respond to. You're not building an argument, you're building a conspiracy theory.

The NHLPA needs to bear EQUAL responsibility to the owners. The reasons why the BOG and NHLPA have not come together are meaningless. Only results matter, and the players bear their share of responsiblity for the results. They were spoiling at least as much for a fight as the owners. Otherwise the conciliatory guy who prioritized getting a deal done would not be gone, and the guy with a long track record of taking it hard to ownership every chance he gets would not be here.

To which I say, fine, then give them all the responsibility they deserve for how long this fight has taken and what it looks like.

To try to come down exclusively on ownership as the reason this lockout is happening is deluded, and making up motivations out of whole cloth that are convenient for your argument to describe why the players are saints and the owners are not doesn't make it any less deluded.


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Old
12-23-2012, 02:02 PM
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If this was 2004 the answer would be obvious to all - a salary cap with linkage where both sides are partners sharing together as they work together to make revenues grow. How could that possibly go wrong?
Rich owners and players agents all around found loopholes and ways to circumvent the original intention of the Salary Cap system. And once those things are found, then within the CBA you must have a good reason not to use the alternatives that are available, or else it could be viewed as colusion not to. That and the 57/43 split which meant that too many teams had to spend too much of their revenue on players' salaries.

I mean hey, I've criticized the owners for their stupidity in the last CBA, because **** they had a whole year to put it together. But if we try to put a positive spin on it, the Salary Cap world of the NHL was a virgin then, and they've discovered flaws. Now they have to fix those flaws.

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Old
12-23-2012, 02:06 PM
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It wouldn't be hard to come up with a system that would remove work stoppage from the equation. Binding arbitration or some sort of financial cliff at expiration of a CBA.

But I suspect neither side has any willingness to make another conflict sting, so it'll be business as usual. If NHLPA is ruled by the hard liners and NHL wants too big concessions, we'll have another conflict 8-10 years from now.

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Old
12-23-2012, 02:38 PM
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Fire Fehr.
Yes, but Bettman has gotta go to...

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Old
12-23-2012, 02:43 PM
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What big problem with two adversarial combatants have we seen recently that was solved amicably before the deadline? Hopefully there are some to restore my faith in humanity.
It depends what you consider the deadline. The NFL lockout was settled before any real games got canceled (one preseason game and that's it). The NBA lockout didn't go to the last minute...unless you consider the last minute the cancellation of Christmas games since that's even more important to the NBA than the Winter Classic is for the NHL.

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Old
12-23-2012, 02:48 PM
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Firing Bettman wouldn't make any difference. Any commissioner would do the same in any league- as did the NBA and the NFL. Thanks to one Mr Donald Fehr, no League will be stupid enough to put themselves at the mercy of their PA who will wait until the players collect their money and then strike just before the playoffs.

The difference is that with the other leagues, the bargaining started before the season, which helped to limit the damage. Fehr refused to do that as he said he had to get up to speed,and as is increasingly clear, he is a deadline negotiater anyway, believing he will get the best deal if he waits and stonewalls to increase pressure on the league.
You guys must have a crystal ball - no doubt about it! First, you claim you can see into the future, and blame all this on a strike that you're SURE is going to happen. And now, you use that same ball to proclaim bettman is not the problem.

Get your heads out of your...... balls, and look around you. Ownership, 'led' by bettman locked out the players three times in a row now.

I suppose if I mention league contraction, you'll look into th ball and say 'that has a negative effect on the league, too!'

Give us a frigging break already!

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12-23-2012, 02:54 PM
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You guys must have a crystal ball - no doubt about it! First, you claim you can see into the future, and blame all this on a strike that you're SURE is going to happen. And now, you use that same ball to proclaim bettman is not the problem.

Get your heads out of your...... balls, and look around you. Ownership, 'led' by bettman locked out the players three times in a row now.

I suppose if I mention league contraction, you'll look into th ball and say 'that has a negative effect on the league, too!'

Give us a frigging break already!
Do you truly believe that all of these billionaires have just allowed Bettman to lead them all around by the nose all of this time, and they've apparently never once (at least to date) questioned where he's led them to or into what messes he's led them... Do you truly believe that?
Whatever has transpired over the past 20 years in how this League has been run and the direction it has taken, it has all happened with participation and agreement of the owners. Including almost certainly with the participation and approval of the owner of Your team, whoever You may be.

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Old
12-23-2012, 02:55 PM
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There is nothing of substance in that post to respond to. You're not building an argument, you're building a conspiracy theory.

The NHLPA needs to bear EQUAL responsibility to the owners. The reasons why the BOG and NHLPA have not come together are meaningless. Only results matter, and the players bear their share of responsiblity for the results. They were spoiling at least as much for a fight as the owners. Otherwise the conciliatory guy who prioritized getting a deal done would not be gone, and the guy with a long track record of taking it hard to ownership every chance he gets would not be here.

To which I say, fine, then give them all the responsibility they deserve for how long this fight has taken and what it looks like.

To try to come down exclusively on ownership as the reason this lockout is happening is deluded, and making up motivations out of whole cloth that are convenient for your argument to describe why the players are saints and the owners are not doesn't make it any less deluded.

How are the players equally responsible? It's the owners that locked the players out. To all the people that say that the pa is stalling because they would not start talks when the league wanted ( with fehr just joining on) have conveniently forgotten that the players said they would play ( and not strike) under the terms of the last cba while negotiations continued. The owners, flatly refused this offer.

Yes the players could strike, but they haven't this time and if there is some conspiracy it's that because fear did it last time he will do it again. And it's fehr's job to take it hard to ownership every chance he gets. If the players don't like it they can dump him, the fact that some fans don't like it is immaterial as he does not answer to the fans.

If the owners are so concerned about salary costs, you would never know it the way the stumbled over each other to sign players under the ters of the last cba that they decry as unsustainable.

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