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Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

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01-01-2013, 08:39 PM
  #251
charliolemieux
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
yes, they've had it easier because they're better than we are. that's usually how it works.
OK you've missed the point. Close though.

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again, that's your opinion. maybe the team looks better on paper, and maybe the future looks good. but to date, there's been no step forward. that's simply a fact. you can't argue the standings.
So 2 PPG forwards under 30 is my oppinion? You had better inform the NHL statistical office.


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i don't know that it will come. you're the one who is convinced this is all good, and i assume you believe the fruits of all this goodness will reflect in the standings some day.
YA I see that the future is brighter than the past. We saw the beginnings of that last year, but I guess you missed the first 55 games.

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its a fair question to ask you when you think we'll see the positive results in the standings. without putting some time frame on it, your positive thinking rings a little hollow.
What If I said they finish bottom 5 one more year before making the post season?


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i have proved it, i've shown your double standard.

you did say he shouldn't be judged for at least 10 years. yet you are judging his work already. double standard.
Holland said it takes 10yrs to see a GM's full impact. And I never said Burke should not be judged. I said people should sit back and quit *****ing.

Judge him all you want. Just try to do it objectively.

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01-01-2013, 08:41 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Because we like unicorns.
I should have known.

And at using arguably the worst GM in the NHL as a measuring stick to feel better about Burke.

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01-01-2013, 08:41 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
yeah. so what? i don't care about the oilers.

you ignored the question i asked you in post #126. after accusing me of ignoring you.
BUt the OIlers are going to be this Dynasty of epic proportions going forward. How could you not care about the Oilers?

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01-01-2013, 08:42 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Luongo doesn't have much to do with the Canucks' success, either. Isn't that one of the reasons they want him out?
What???

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01-01-2013, 08:47 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
1. Show me where...

2. The gap is a lot smaller than it used to be.
Look up one of Zenon's paradox, Acilles and the Tortoise...

As I said, not your best argument.

I understand what you were trying to say, but the patient died.

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01-01-2013, 08:52 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
(...)


YA I see that the future is brighter than the past. We saw the beginnings of that last year, but I guess you missed the first 55 games.

(...)
Oooh, such an juicy one...

But I'll resist.

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01-01-2013, 08:53 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
that's all vague, ambiguous nonsense. you're saying the other teams are better than us. everyone knows that.

it actually is as simple as adding up wins and losses. that's how the league determines who gets into the playoffs and who doesn't. they don't take into our opinions into account.
IT is not as simple as that.

I really thought I wouldn't have to spell it out to you. I am disappointed.

It's that other teams are better. They had better pieces. They had a head start on building. They had better assets to move.

Everything was stacked against BUrke when he got here. Rask, Steen, Colaiacovo all gone. Another 1st gone for Toskala. No return for Sundin or Tucker. Seriously reduced return for Kaberle.

Our 2 best players were Kaberle and Antropov. THat sucks beyond sucking.

NOw look again at our current roster and tell me this team is not in better shape.

Standings be damned. We just had a bunch of guys playing for their jobs and overachieveng.

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01-01-2013, 08:54 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Look up one of Zenon's paradox, Acilles and the Tortoise...

As I said, not your best argument.

I understand what you were trying to say, but the patient died.
Show it or drop it.

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01-01-2013, 08:55 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
so, if we're going on the assumption that a #1 centre is crucial to the team's success....

it is acceptable if burke cannot find a way to get one, and the team continues its losing ways?

that's not his fault? we just shrug, say, "oh well, good try", and continue to lose under brian burke?
Up until now the Leafs were never in a position to actually acquire a #1C or #1G but now when all these contracts expire and a new CBA on the horizon there is a better chance now than there was during Burkes tenure thus far.

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01-01-2013, 08:56 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Oooh, such an juicy one...

But I'll resist.
Resists what?

A team in a playoff spot, or two players at the top of the league in scoring?

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01-01-2013, 08:57 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
So 2 PPG forwards under 30 is my oppinion? You had better inform the NHL statistical office.
2 ppg forwards makes the team better on paper. adding 2 ppg forwards has made you think the team is better. it hasn't actually made the team better. check the standings. there's been no step forward.

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YA I see that the future is brighter than the past. We saw the beginnings of that last year, but I guess you missed the first 55 games.
sadly for us, the season is longer than 55 games. in the big picture of the full season (and you've encouraged people to look at the big picture), burke's team is actually worse than thte past.

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What If I said they finish bottom 5 one more year before making the post season?
if that's what you think, great. adding a time frame adds some credibility to what you're arguing.

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Holland said it takes 10yrs to see a GM's full impact. And I never said Burke should not be judged. I said people should sit back and quit *****ing.
you said we should sit back and let him do his job. you said he shouldn't be judged for 10 years. yet you're judging and giving all kinds of opinions on the job he's doing. how is that sitting back and letting him do his job.

and for the record, nothing we say here prevents him from doing his job in any way.

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Judge him all you want. Just try to do it objectively.
do you think you're objective? you're not biased at all? your love for the leafs doesn't influence your opinions?

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01-01-2013, 08:58 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Look up one of Zenon's paradox, Acilles and the Tortoise...

As I said, not your best argument.

I understand what you were trying to say, but the patient died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Show it or drop it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27...d_the_tortoise

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In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 metres, for example.

If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 metres, bringing him to the tortoise's starting point.

During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, say, 10 metres. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead.

Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise.

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01-01-2013, 09:00 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
Up until now the Leafs were never in a position to actually acquire a #1C or #1G but now when all these contracts expire and a new CBA on the horizon there is a better chance now than there was during Burkes tenure thus far.


Who signed these players to those contracts which hindered the team?

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01-01-2013, 09:00 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
What???
We're talking about the same guy who's a notorious choker in the playoffs, right?

SeasonRecordSV%GAA
08-096-4-1.9142.52
09-106-6-1.8953.22
10-1115-10-1.9142.56
11-120-2-0.8913.59

I know it's hard for some Leafs fans to comprehend, but contenders don't particularly care about regular season success.

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01-01-2013, 09:02 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Judge him all you want. Just try to do it objectively.
how do you judge him anymore objectively then the standings or team stats. the rest are all opinion's and therefore not objective.

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01-01-2013, 09:03 PM
  #266
beauchamp
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Resists what?

A team in a playoff spot, or two players at the top of the league in scoring?
You asked for it...

"You must have missed the last 27 games."

"If the lock-out ends, they'll have a chance with a 48-game schedule."


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01-01-2013, 09:05 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
IT is not as simple as that.

I really thought I wouldn't have to spell it out to you. I am disappointed.

It's that other teams are better. They had better pieces. They had a head start on building. They had better assets to move.

Everything was stacked against BUrke when he got here. Rask, Steen, Colaiacovo all gone. Another 1st gone for Toskala. No return for Sundin or Tucker. Seriously reduced return for Kaberle.

Our 2 best players were Kaberle and Antropov. THat sucks beyond sucking.

NOw look again at our current roster and tell me this team is not in better shape.

Standings be damned. We just had a bunch of guys playing for their jobs and overachieveng.
good, you've finally admitted it.

you believe your opinion means more than the standings. it doesn't. the nhl will never take your opinion into account.

everyone might agree with you, on paper, the team might look much better in our opinion. but it isn't better. the standings tell us that. we have no improved our place in the standings under brian burke. nothing else matters.

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01-01-2013, 09:07 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
We're talking about the same guy who's a notorious choker in the playoffs, right?

SeasonRecordSV%GAA
08-096-4-1.9142.52
09-106-6-1.8953.22
10-1115-10-1.9142.56
11-120-2-0.8913.59

I know it's hard for some Leafs fans to comprehend, but contenders don't particularly care about regular season success.
Common mistake on these Boards, looking at the stats rather than the games...

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01-01-2013, 09:07 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post


Who signed these players to those contracts which hindered the team?
The thing is, they didn't hinder the team, as none of them really prevented Burke from acquiring new players. We could even afford to knowingly take on Lombardi's bad contract, and overpay Connolly as a stopgap in the same offseason.

Giving Richards a retirement deal that topped the Rangers offer would have hindered the team.

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01-01-2013, 09:08 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
how do you judge him anymore objectively then the standings or team stats. the rest are all opinion's and therefore not objective.
excellent question, excellent point.

the only possible way to judge objectively is to look at the team's results in the standings.

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01-01-2013, 09:10 PM
  #271
charliolemieux
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
LMAO.

Nice paradox. NOT! !

If runner A can run twice as fast as Runner T, and Runner T starts 100yds ahead of Runner A, at what total distance would Runner A have to run to catch runner T?

There is a mathematical answer. Your paradox is flawed.

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01-01-2013, 09:10 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Common mistake on these Boards, looking at the stats rather than the games...
Yeah, like the Bruins-Canucks series? Man, he really stole the show there. How about his performance against the Hawks with Byfuglien trolling him all series long?

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01-01-2013, 09:11 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
The thing is, they didn't hinder the team, as none of them really prevented Burke from acquiring new players. We could even afford to knowingly take on Lombardi's bad contract, and overpay Connolly as a stopgap in the same offseason.

Giving Richards a retirement deal that topped the Rangers offer would have hindered the team.
The poster I quoted implied that the Leafs could not get the players they wanted because of these contracts.

Not that I agree with him (when there's a will, there's a way), but I simply answered his argument.

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01-01-2013, 09:14 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
The poster I quoted implied that the Leafs could not get the players they wanted because of these contracts.

Not that I agree with him (when there's a will, there's a way), but I simply answered his argument.
The players were simply not available at a reasonable price. That will likely change with the new CBA, though, when cap circumventing retirement contracts are no more, and the teams needing to shed salary not being able to drive prices of UFAs up.

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01-01-2013, 09:17 PM
  #275
charliolemieux
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
how do you judge him anymore objectively then the standings or team stats. the rest are all opinion's and therefore not objective.
Are 2 PPG forwards my oppinion?

IS haviung to sit established NHL defensemen in the press box due to depth, my oppinion?


My observations are far from just oppinion.

Am I wrong in that other franchises in the Eastern conference had better building
blocks than Toronto did when Burke arrived?

Or is it my oppinion that TBL got Stamkos, and PIT had SID and EM, and WSH has Ovy and Backstrom?

Are these facts my oppinion?

Staal in CAR, Lundqvist in NYR, Spezza in OTT, Miller in BUF are these facts my OPPINION?

NO they are observations. IF you want to hang you hat on stats then why are you ignoring Lupul and Kessel an d the great season they had?

Because you can't be objective. That's why.

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