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Old
01-09-2013, 06:57 PM
  #351
I am the Liquor
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
So in short: No, you can't provide any examples or proof of what you're claiming to be gospel.
No, Im not willing to spend time trying to find snippets of interviews from a year ago. I know what I heard/saw, and I have the liberty to refer to them without having to spend time digging through archives looking for something just because you asked for them, when you could easily do it yourself.

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01-09-2013, 07:00 PM
  #352
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Interesting article on the NYR and Redden. http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/bob_mckenzie/?id=413185 How does this impact thinking about Horc? Here is a small sample.

"Door No. 2 would be to send Redden to the AHL, absorb his $5 million-plus cap hit this season, which they have room for because teams can spend to $70M this season, and then use a compliance buyout this summer to erase the problem for next season. Compliance buyouts do not count against the salary cap.

But that route is fraught with peril. If Redden were to get hurt in the AHL this season and the injury carried over to the summer, an injured player cannot be bought out. Were that to happen, the Rangers could get saddled with Redden's full $6.5M cap hit next season and under no circumstances can they allow that to occur. "

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01-09-2013, 07:10 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by PavelDatsyuk View Post
People would be shocked how bad the Oilers would be without Horcoff on this team. But the majority don't realize it and rag on him to no end.

Carolina 1-7 L
Detroit 2-6 L
NJD 3-4 SOL
Tampa 4-3 W
Vancouver 1-2 L
Toronto 1-4 L
Columbus 6-3 W
SJS 1-2 L
LA 2-3 SOL
Vancouver 2-3 L
Buffalo 2-4 L
Colorado 3-4 SOL
Calgary 1-2 L
Detroit 3-5 L
NYI 2-1 W
Vancouver 1-6 L
Dallas 2-3 L
SJS 5-2 W
LA 2-5 L
Anaheim 2-3 L
Minnesota 1-4 L
Ottawa 3-5 L
Anaheim 0-4 L
Phoenix 1-3 L
Colorado 2-3 SOL
Nashville 1-3 L
St. Louis 0-4 L
Calgary 4-5 L
LA 0-2 L
Minnesota 2-4 L
Vancouver 4-1 W
Vancouver 2-0 W
Calgary 1-6 L
Minnesota 1-3 L
Colorado 3-4 SOL

These are the results without Horcoff in the lineup for half the season. The Oilers finished 6-24-5 without him in the lineup, on pace for a total of ~39.8 points over an 82 game schedule. That's just abysmal. With him in the lineup 19-21-7, a 78.5 point pace. Obviously still not good, but almost twice as many points with Horcoff in the lineup vs without.

Last season, we had Horcoff for 81 games and we finished with 74 points. Everyone screams improvement but we simply had a key player remain healthy and a rather lucky PP%. I'm not sure there really was any improvement last season.

2 wins against Columbus and NYI and then 2 wins against Vancouver at the end when they clearly already mailed it in. This team had a tough time winning a single game over a ~40 game sample without Shawn Horcoff in the lineup.

People really are ignorant to what he brings to this team and what he allows the kids to do on the ice. Not just Horcoff but other players used in similar roles around the league. Most people just look at the points leaderboard and make up their minds based on that.
Perhaps it was not Horcoff driving the change but rather Corey Potter. After all, in the two years before he became an Oiler regular the team had 62 points each year. Then Potter joins them and they improve by 12 points.

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Old
01-09-2013, 07:13 PM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilphan View Post
Interesting article on the NYR and Redden. http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/bob_mckenzie/?id=413185 How does this impact thinking about Horc? Here is a small sample.

"Door No. 2 would be to send Redden to the AHL, absorb his $5 million-plus cap hit this season, which they have room for because teams can spend to $70M this season, and then use a compliance buyout this summer to erase the problem for next season. Compliance buyouts do not count against the salary cap.

But that route is fraught with peril. If Redden were to get hurt in the AHL this season and the injury carried over to the summer, an injured player cannot be bought out. Were that to happen, the Rangers could get saddled with Redden's full $6.5M cap hit next season and under no circumstances can they allow that to occur. "
Keeping Horcoff on the books is not nearly as much of a potential issue for Oilers as Redden's deal is for the Rangers.

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Old
01-09-2013, 07:30 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
So in short: No, you can't provide any examples or proof of what you're claiming to be gospel.
I think it was Moreau that was pointing out Dubnyk's responsibility in a poor game.

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01-09-2013, 07:30 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
We all know Horcoff is overpaid. Its not going to change so why bring it up? His cap hit isn't hurting this team as it is today so its a non issue. Until the Oilers get close to the cap Horcoffs contract is pretty much irrelevant to his contributions to this team.

The Oilers have $7,266,667 in free cap space. What is stopping them from getting 2 $3mil or 3 $2mil players? Not horcoffs cap hit. I'm not arguing that Horcoff is the be all end all of 3rd line centers. I know there are probably better options out there, but in the mean time we are stuck with him and I think he can fill that 3rd line role just fine.
It's less about the effect on the Oiler's cap, and more about the fact that having him around effectively blocks the team from looking for more effective players that would improve the team.

It isn't really that different from the Khabibulin situation. He isn't good enough for the number one job anymore and hasn't been for the majority of his contract, but because the optics of that contract sitting on the bench looks bad on management, he gets pushed into roles he isn't capable of fufilling anymore. Add into that mess the fact organization leaves a better player on the bench and refuse to look at replacements, it all adds up to losses in the standings.

If the Oilers plan to sacrifice the next few years as more rebuilding years, that is one thing - but if the goal is to actually start winning games then the Oilers need some real upgrades in the supporting cast. An ineffective 5.5 million dollar a year player they feel compelled to play 20 minutes a night because they generally care more about optics than results, is and always will be a major roadblock to that goal until he is removed from the equation.

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01-09-2013, 07:54 PM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
I think it was Moreau that was pointing out Dubnyk's responsibility in a poor game.
It was horcoff blaming a loss on being a "young team, so there will be mistakes" in a game where the kids were plus 2 or 3, and his line had given up 4. I remember the clip too.

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01-09-2013, 08:01 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
It's less about the effect on the Oiler's cap, and more about the fact that having him around effectively blocks the team from looking for more effective players that would improve the team.

It isn't really that different from the Khabibulin situation. He isn't good enough for the number one job anymore and hasn't been for the majority of his contract, but because the optics of that contract sitting on the bench looks bad on management, he gets pushed into roles he isn't capable of fufilling anymore. Add into that mess the fact organization leaves a better player on the bench and refuse to look at replacements, it all adds up to losses in the standings.

If the Oilers plan to sacrifice the next few years as more rebuilding years, that is one thing - but if the goal is to actually start winning games then the Oilers need some real upgrades in the supporting cast. An ineffective 5.5 million dollar a year player they feel compelled to play 20 minutes a night because they generally care more about optics than results, is and always will be a major roadblock to that goal until he is removed from the equation.
And what does that have to do with his ability to fill a 3rd line roll?

I'm not saying that his contract hasn't hindered the Oilers, but looking forward to this season and next he can be of use until a better option is available.

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01-09-2013, 08:17 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
And what does that have to do with his ability to fill a 3rd line roll?

I'm not saying that his contract hasn't hindered the Oilers, but looking forward to this season and next he can be of use until a better option is available.
Well, aside from the fact he isn't effective at it, and hasn't been for years. He's 35 and declining significantly every year, he isn't on pace to start rebounding anytime soon.

The overall point is that keeping him around past this season will effectively hinder the Oilers from having to go out and find a better option, they simply aren't going to be proactive about it.

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01-09-2013, 09:19 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Well, aside from the fact he isn't effective at it, and hasn't been for years. He's 35 and declining significantly every year, he isn't on pace to start rebounding anytime soon.

The overall point is that keeping him around past this season will effectively hinder the Oilers from having to go out and find a better option, they simply aren't going to be proactive about it.
As Reimer mentioned he has never played in a 3rd line role like he should end up in this year. So it is unfair to say he won't be able to handle it. I think he will fit nicely into the roll, aside from his contract obviously.

If they buy him out this summer and replace him with something better I'm happy. If there isn't anything available and Horcoff is here for next season as well I won't be upset. If he's here till the end of his deal I will be asking some serious questions.

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01-09-2013, 09:37 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by PavelDatsyuk View Post
People would be shocked how bad the Oilers would be without Horcoff on this team. But the majority don't realize it and rag on him to no end.
Im curious what Hall's or Nuge's status was during these losses that were brought on by the lack of Horcoff

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01-10-2013, 12:42 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
Im curious what Hall's or Nuge's status was during these losses that were brought on by the lack of Horcoff
Was from 2 seasons ago, so Nuge was not drafted yet, Hall went down nearer to the end of the year.

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01-10-2013, 01:12 AM
  #363
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From NHL.com http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=643572
To accomplish the "make whole," each Players' pro-rata "make whole" will be determined for the first two years of the Agreement and will be paid to each Player as a Deferred Compensation benefit over the life of the Player's existing SPC. For those Players whose contracts expire after the 2012/13 season, the benefit will be paid when final HRR is determined for this season (in October/November 2013). Player "make whole" payments will be accrued and paid for by the League, and will be chargeable against Players' Share amounts in future years as Preliminary Benefits.
Does this mean that the players will eventually pay for the make whole money in future years?

Seems to me like that's a whole lot more money for guys at the end of their careers paid for by guys who will be around a while.

Definitely gives the appearance that the 'leadership' of the NHLPA sold out the young guys on their teams for personal gain.

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01-10-2013, 02:05 AM
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PavelDatsyuk View Post
Was from 2 seasons ago, so Nuge was not drafted yet, Hall went down nearer to the end of the year.
The same season where Khabibulin literally couldn't win a game after Christmas?

If I recall correctly, that was the same timeframe we had that 0 for 90 or whatever it was drought on the PP too.


There were definitely more important factors to losing those games than the lack of Shawn Horcoff.

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01-10-2013, 07:00 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by PavelDatsyuk View Post
People would be shocked how bad the Oilers would be without Horcoff on this team. But the majority don't realize it and rag on him to no end.

SNIP

These are the results without Horcoff in the lineup for half the season. The Oilers finished 6-24-5 without him in the lineup, on pace for a total of ~39.8 points over an 82 game schedule. That's just abysmal. With him in the lineup 19-21-7, a 78.5 point pace. Obviously still not good, but almost twice as many points with Horcoff in the lineup vs without.

Last season, we had Horcoff for 81 games and we finished with 74 points. Everyone screams improvement but we simply had a key player remain healthy and a rather lucky PP%. I'm not sure there really was any improvement last season.

2 wins against Columbus and NYI and then 2 wins against Vancouver at the end when they clearly already mailed it in. This team had a tough time winning a single game over a ~40 game sample without Shawn Horcoff in the lineup.

People really are ignorant to what he brings to this team and what he allows the kids to do on the ice. Not just Horcoff but other players used in similar roles around the league. Most people just look at the points leaderboard and make up their minds based on that.
That's a sweet post. How about this from the 2007-2008 season:

Horcoff played 53 games, leading all forwards in TOI by a country mile (22:13/game).

The Oilers went 23-25-5 with Horcoff in the lineup. 48.1% of points, a pace of 79.8 points for the season.

Horcoff's last game was January 29th. After that, the Oilers in 29 games went 18-10-1, for a spectacular 63.8% of points - a pace of 104 points over an 82 game schedule!!!!

So there ya go!

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01-10-2013, 11:03 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
I'm not sure you can really fault management for not doing this sooner because it was near impossible to get rid of Horcoff until compliance buyouts and cap/salary trading was available. They were pretty much stuck with him and up until last season he has been their best option for a #1 Center.
Can't fault management? What have they done to address the situation? They've just sat on their hands and let the 1st overall picks come to them. They haven't done anytihng to address their center issues. Probably partially due to their love for the guy. I do agree with you that it has been near impossible to get rid of the guy given the circumstances. That's why now that they have the option they have to take advantage of it.

As for the rest I'm just saying there is notihng proving that he will be a good 3rd line center because he has never played in that roll, ever. So you're right he may be, but if he's complete garbage again this season as I suspect I'd kick his ass to the curb ASAP this summer.

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01-10-2013, 11:09 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
That's a sweet post. How about this from the 2007-2008 season:

Horcoff played 53 games, leading all forwards in TOI by a country mile (22:13/game).

The Oilers went 23-25-5 with Horcoff in the lineup. 48.1% of points, a pace of 79.8 points for the season.

Horcoff's last game was January 29th. After that, the Oilers in 29 games went 18-10-1, for a spectacular 63.8% of points - a pace of 104 points over an 82 game schedule!!!!

So there ya go!
Cherry picking results is the way to go!!

Remember tha tone game sample when Selivanov scored 4 goals. Well that's a pace of 328 for the entire season. We should seriously take another look at this dude.

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01-10-2013, 11:10 AM
  #368
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It was horcoff blaming a loss on being a "young team, so there will be mistakes" in a game where the kids were plus 2 or 3, and his line had given up 4. I remember the clip too.
The videos are still up on Oilers.com

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01-10-2013, 12:03 PM
  #369
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I cannot once in recent memory recall a moment where Horcoff has publicly accepted responsibility for his own at times putrid play. He makes excuses for the team's play... I remember an instance 2-3 years ago where he told media members the building was too quiet and then proceeded to ask the fans, through videos or quotes in the press to please get louder and more energized down the stretch. He's one of the more respected NHLPA guys out there, standing on stage by a horde of reporters making comments on the lockout when he has been and still is one of leagues many overpaid players, if not one of THE most overpaid players. Say what you want about this but I've heard from people in the know that he is an ******* and one of those kind of people who keeps there noses up to you. I've never seen him come across as nice or down to earth, whether in an interview or away from the rink. Then there's the news that comes out from a while back that Horcoff had 'trouble adjusting' or even 'accepting', coming to terms with his new role as a third line centre on the team. There's just so many times the guy has put his foot in his mouth and said the wrong thing. How can they follow this guys lead when he's been one of the most mis-used, overused and generally poor players on the Oilers for such a long stretch? The day Horcoff is gone will be a good one.


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01-10-2013, 02:08 PM
  #370
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With Barker in the lineup last season the Oilers had 11 wins and 14 losses. With Horcoff they had 31 wins, 50 losses. Who's actually stirring the coffee?

... big mistake letting "Cam the dominator" slip out of their hands... now he's taken his talents to the coast.

You can't argue with results.

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01-10-2013, 02:25 PM
  #371
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With Barker in the lineup last season the Oilers had 11 wins and 14 losses. With Horcoff they had 31 wins, 50 losses. Who's actually stirring the coffee?

... big mistake letting "Cam the dominator" slip out of their hands... now he's taken his talents to the coast.

You can't argue with results.
The Barker effect.

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01-10-2013, 02:59 PM
  #372
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Say what you want about this but I've heard from people in the know that he is an ******* and one of those kind of people who keeps there noses up to you.
I heard from someone that was Gene's assistant for home games state just the opposite.

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01-10-2013, 03:56 PM
  #373
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I heard from someone that was Gene's assistant for home games state just the opposite.
Link?

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01-10-2013, 04:00 PM
  #374
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Horcoff will be gone by the end of the summer in some shape or form simply because of the cap reduction for next season.

I think by the end of the season it will be clear who should be the captain (Hall)

I also think Tambo will try to trade horcoff or pass him through waivers if the team is fairing poorly at the deadline.

If they play well, Tambo will try to either trade or just buy him out in the offseason or just before the draft.

They will want cap room in the event any free agents tickle their fancy in the offseason.

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01-10-2013, 04:03 PM
  #375
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Link?
Well I mean I have some proof. LAst year when I was boarding a flight for Chicago and the Oilers were flying to Minny at the beginning of the season I walked by Horc and told him good luck and hope they come back with the W. He replied by saying thanks.

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