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Did the 2011 draft hurt us more than anything else?

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Old
01-01-2013, 10:40 PM
  #76
-DeMo-
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
2007 is a convenient cut off date.

Of the 2006 draft 5 of 7 have played atleast 2 NHL games. With Holzer(NHL ready) being the 2gp player and our good buddy Komarov who is also NHL ready being #7 of the 7 players drafted.

That is a pretty good draft, and shows the need to give players time. 6 of 7 would be an impressive draft. Just got to get the NHL back and playing.
Komerov/Holzer/Tlusty/Reimer/Stalberg are all bottom of the barrell players and barely worth nothing at this point. Komarov is a 4th liner Holzer a 6/7 dmen Tlusty/Stalberg are bottom 6 players and Reimer is a backup goalie. those are nothing to be proud of. only player worth something is Kulemin.

going back to 2005 the only player worth mentioning is Rask. Stralman again a 6th Dmen hardly worth while. 2004 has nobody worth anything. 2003's best player is John Mitchell.

you really have to go back to 2002 before seeing Steen/Stajan/White.

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01-01-2013, 10:50 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
Komerov/Holzer/Tlusty/Reimer/Stalberg are all bottom of the barrell players and barely worth nothing at this point. Komarov is a 4th liner Holzer a 6/7 dmen Tlusty/Stalberg are bottom 6 players and Reimer is a backup goalie. those are nothing to be proud of. only player worth something is Kulemin.

going back to 2005 the only player worth mentioning is Rask. Stralman again a 6th Dmen hardly worth while. 2004 has nobody worth anything. 2003's best player is John Mitchell.

you really have to go back to 2002 before seeing Steen/Stajan/White.
6 out of 7 guys playing hockey at the highest level available is damn impressive. Hell the only guy that didn't make it is playing AHL. That's all 7 of Toronto's picks playing professional hockey. That's a helluva impressive draft no matter how badly you want to spin it.

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01-01-2013, 10:59 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
6 out of 7 guys playing hockey at the highest level available is damn impressive. Hell the only guy that didn't make it is playing AHL. That's all 7 of Toronto's picks playing professional hockey. That's a helluva impressive draft no matter how badly you want to spin it.
so having 2 top 6 players(frattin, Kulemin) really borderline top 6 guys 2 top 4 defenders(schenn, Gunnersson) and 1 starting goalie(Rask) with Mitchell, Komarov(never played yet), Holzer(hasn't proven he can play yet), Tlusty, Reimer, Stalberg, Stalman so 7 bottom 6/bottom 2 Dmen/backup goalie, in 10 years of drafting is considered a good job?

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01-01-2013, 11:17 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
so having 2 top 6 players(frattin, Kulemin) really borderline top 6 guys 2 top 4 defenders(schenn, Gunnersson) and 1 starting goalie(Rask) with Mitchell, Komarov(never played yet), Holzer(hasn't proven he can play yet), Tlusty, Reimer, Stalberg, Stalman so 7 bottom 6/bottom 2 Dmen/backup goalie, in 10 years of drafting is considered a good job?


I make a post about the 2007 draft and what you took away from me saying "the Leafs had a great '07 draft" is that the Leafs have had a great decade of drafting? Marvelous.

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01-01-2013, 11:31 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even View Post


I make a post about the 2007 draft and what you took away from me saying "the Leafs had a great '07 draft" is that the Leafs have had a great decade of drafting? Marvelous.
there is a distinct lack of higher thinking amongst some groups on these boards.

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01-02-2013, 12:09 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even View Post


I make a post about the 2007 draft and what you took away from me saying "the Leafs had a great '07 draft" is that the Leafs have had a great decade of drafting? Marvelous.
ok my mistake, 2007 was a good draft what about the premise of what I was talking about in the first place do you believe our scouting staff has done a good job?

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01-02-2013, 06:13 AM
  #82
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to the OP,

do these thoughts/reflections have to come during every world jr. tournament?

weren't people singing the praises of jerry d'amigo after a big goal he scored? isn't he a fourth liner for the Marlies?

this "we should have" stuff is really silly. even the "i told you so" people should be a little ashamed of themselves too.

wasn't kypreos a good jr. player? why are we going ape**** over players who have a good tournament? has Biggs and Percy played in the NHL yet?

the 2011 draft did not hurt the leafs.

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01-02-2013, 06:27 AM
  #83
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The Toronto fan doesn't want to be patient and rebuild properly.
The Toronto fan takes FRINGE players/picks and turns them into Gods.
Then complaigns when they're faulty idols fail to answer their prayers.

Can't blame Biggs/Percy for being mediocre players. They always were.

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01-02-2013, 06:32 AM
  #84
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I wanted Biggs and Rattie at that time. I still like the Biggs pick overall as PF take longer to develop. It is crazy to think we could of had Jenner, Rattie and Gibson. Oh well.

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01-02-2013, 08:05 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
The Toronto fan doesn't want to be patient and rebuild properly.
The Toronto fan takes FRINGE players/picks and turns them into Gods.
Then complaigns when they're faulty idols fail to answer their prayers.

Can't blame Biggs/Percy for being mediocre players. They always were.
The Toronto fan is quite patient with a rebuild if done PROPERLY. It's MLSE that is impatient and won't tolerate a proper rebuild. Look at the Leafs/Raptors - always striving for that 8th seed, never being allowed to completely bottom out. The owners are the problem, everyone knows it deep down.

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01-02-2013, 12:15 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by 67Cup View Post
The question is not really about who the Leafs drafted or did not draft. That is, as many have said a bit if a crapshoot. As many also have said, we won't know for a couple of years yet how the players w are discussing will turn out. (My preliminary guess is that the Leaf picks will not be the best possible but they both may turn out to be bottom half of a team NHL contributors. But that remains guesswork. )

The real question is about asset management, as at least two people have said. In a draft with a top tier and then thirty or forty very similarly rated players, is trading #30 and #39 to move up to 22 good management? If the draft is aptly described with some gambling metaphor, it is better to have two very slightly worse chances than only one slightly better chance.

There was a TSN study that showed late first rounders become NHL regulars (a 200 game career was the criterion IIRC) at a little over 20% rate. For the sake of argument, say the 22nd pick hits at a 25% rate, pick 30 at 22% and 30 at 20%, it is manifestly better to have the two picks. In fact, the difference is negligible among picks in that range, so the argument for keeping the picks is, if anything, stronger than my hypothetical numbers.

You would have to be very confident that an asset obtainable with the higher pick was significantly undervalued to make the trade worthwhile. Presumably, that is exactly what Burke and company thought about Biggs. It may turn out to be a good move, but the preliminary returns are not promising.
Thats the point I think some are overlooking. Its not the two players we took as being the issue (Biggs and Percy), is the price we paid in order to move up to secure those players when it seemed at the time, and nothing since has changed, that there is a very little to chose between players 20-35.

Sampe List of players picked after 35 include:
Philip Danault
Boone Jenner
John Gibson
Brandon Saad
David Musil
Ty Rattie
Rocco Grimaldi
Tomas Jurco
Victor Rask
Scott Harrington
Brett Ritchie
Alex Kocklachev
Marcus Granlund
Xavier Ouellette
Ryan Sproule
Lucas Lessie
Niklas Jensen
Tyler Wotherspoon

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Old
01-02-2013, 12:18 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
The Toronto fan doesn't want to be patient and rebuild properly.
The Toronto fan takes FRINGE players/picks and turns them into Gods.
Then complaigns when they're faulty idols fail to answer their prayers.

Can't blame Biggs/Percy for being mediocre players. They always were.
Where do you get the Toronto fans don't want to be patient?
We've been out of the playoffs for almost a decade and some (inlcuding me) are still suggesting we should be looking to get high draft picks and look longer term. We are about as patient as any group of fans could be....its the bloody GM's who've been tossing draft picks away hoping for a quick fix

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01-02-2013, 01:38 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Dark Passenger View Post
Where do you get the Toronto fans don't want to be patient?
We've been out of the playoffs for almost a decade and some (inlcuding me) are still suggesting we should be looking to get high draft picks and look longer term. We are about as patient as any group of fans could be....its the bloody GM's who've been tossing draft picks away hoping for a quick fix
Since 2009, the Leafs haven't traded away any draft picks or prospects of any significance, and the ones they have traded were in the common type of minor deals for other prospects or capable NHLers(except the JML trade). They've also added quality prospects like Gardiner, Colborne, Percy, and Biggs at the cost of NHL veterans, and have gone after and acquired most of the top undrafted prospects available every summer.

You sure you're not already getting what you're asking for?

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01-02-2013, 02:14 PM
  #89
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How can the 2011 draft have hurt us?

This team hasn't made the playoffs since the last lockout, and you're suggesting that the 2011 draft hurt our chances of doing so?

This game comes down to Wins and Losses. The 2011 draft hasn't had any effect on either column thus far.

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01-02-2013, 02:32 PM
  #90
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Hindsight is 20/20. If we could go back, and use the 25/30/39 on, say, Gibson and two of Saad/Jenner/Rattie/Jurco/Jaskin, then yeah, I'd be super psyched. But it's always easy to critique drafts after the fact. I do think Biggs is a pretty good NHL prospect (I see him being a good 3rd liner), and I do think Percy has NHL upside. Not perfect picks by any means, but I don't hate the picks either.

With that being said, I do think Leafs scouting staff is below average in general. Compared to the money we pump into it, WAY below average (much like our team, period).

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01-02-2013, 03:00 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
Since 2009, the Leafs haven't traded away any draft picks or prospects of any significance, and the ones they have traded were in the common type of minor deals for other prospects or capable NHLers(except the JML trade). They've also added quality prospects like Gardiner, Colborne, Percy, and Biggs at the cost of NHL veterans, and have gone after and acquired most of the top undrafted prospects available every summer.

You sure you're not already getting what you're asking for?
He traded most of the significant picks/prospects he had and the team still tanked , that's why he stopped dealing his picks/prospects .

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01-02-2013, 03:07 PM
  #92
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I'm in the camp with the posters who believe the problem has more to do with poor asset mang than the players we selected . It was widely reported the talent from 16 to 40 was very similar so i never understood the need to move a high second to jump up a few spots .

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01-02-2013, 03:30 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He traded most of the significant picks/prospects he had and the team still tanked , that's why he stopped dealing his picks/prospects .
Pretty sure he said that he'd use our first for the right player not all that long ago. That right player just hasn't come along since then. There is more than one way to build a team.

If Getzlaf became available somehow, you can bet on him losing no sleep over sending a 1st or two over.

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01-02-2013, 03:36 PM
  #94
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Pretty sure he said that he'd use our first for the right player not all that long ago. That right player just hasn't come along since then. There is more than one way to build a team.
Burke will say anything depending on the situation or to justify his moves or the play of the team .

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01-02-2013, 03:40 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Burke will say anything depending on the situation or to justify his moves or the play of the team .
As would any executive in professional sports.

Don't act like Burke invented the double talk. He's going to justify every decision he makes. If there were set rules or a book of values for each player like they have for trading cards any of us could do the job.

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01-02-2013, 03:44 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He traded most of the significant picks/prospects he had and the team still tanked , that's why he stopped dealing his picks/prospects .
That was 4 calender years ago. So... what are you asking for now?

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01-02-2013, 03:50 PM
  #97
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As would any executive in professional sports.

Don't act like Burke invented the double talk. He's going to justify every decision he makes. If there were set rules or a book of values for each player like they have for trading cards any of us could do the job.
That's all well and good but what does that have to do with people believing that justifies his record with us ?

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01-02-2013, 03:52 PM
  #98
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That was 4 calender years ago. So... what are you asking for now?
He's only kept 1 first round pick since then so why do you act like he's kept multiple 1sts since then ?

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01-02-2013, 04:01 PM
  #99
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That's all well and good but what does that have to do with people believing that justifies his record with us ?
Oh I'm not suggesting it should.

I think people put way to much stock into things that Burke says. At the end of the day you judge a GM, coach, player etc. by what happens on the ice and in the standings.

I don't care if a guy can give you a well thought out, detailed response for any move they make and a pile of stats to back things up, if it doesn't result in success on the ice it doesn't mean a thing.

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01-02-2013, 04:01 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He's only kept 1 first round pick since then so why do you act like he's kept multiple 1sts since then ?
I'm not, I'm wondering why your asking to put a stop to something that hasn't happened in 4 years.(Well, not you specifically)

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