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Did the 2011 draft hurt us more than anything else?

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01-02-2013, 05:16 PM
  #101
hotpaws
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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
I'm not, I'm wondering why your asking to put a stop to something that hasn't happened in 4 years.(Well, not you specifically)
He didn't put a stop to anything , he simply couldn't justify trading the few remaining assets ( picks/prospects ) he had once he quickie retool failed . This being said we still only had 2 picks in the top 4 rounds this past draft and that's kind of pathetic for a team that finished 26th .

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01-02-2013, 05:17 PM
  #102
eyeball11
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He traded most of the significant picks/prospects he had and the team still tanked , that's why he stopped dealing his picks/prospects .
...course there's also the nugget that there hasn't been another 21 year old coming off 42 goals in his past 81 GP become available either.

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01-02-2013, 05:23 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
Komerov/Holzer/Tlusty/Reimer/Stalberg are all bottom of the barrell players and barely worth nothing at this point. Komarov is a 4th liner Holzer a 6/7 dmen Tlusty/Stalberg are bottom 6 players and Reimer is a backup goalie. those are nothing to be proud of. only player worth something is Kulemin.

going back to 2005 the only player worth mentioning is Rask. Stralman again a 6th Dmen hardly worth while. 2004 has nobody worth anything. 2003's best player is John Mitchell.

you really have to go back to 2002 before seeing Steen/Stajan/White.
There are different levels of success for a draft. If you have only one player make the NHL from a draft and becomes an elite player (lots of options as examples), then you could say that was a successful draft. On the flipside, if you have a ton of picks who actually made it to the NHL, even though none would be considered elite, then that is also a very successful draft.

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01-02-2013, 05:25 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
Oh I'm not suggesting it should.

I think people put way to much stock into things that Burke says. At the end of the day you judge a GM, coach, player etc. by what happens on the ice and in the standings.

I don't care if a guy can give you a well thought out, detailed response for any move they make and a pile of stats to back things up, if it doesn't result in success on the ice it doesn't mean a thing.
So we agree .

Some people put stock into the things he says because they feel it justifies the move he makes if they turn out poorly down the road .

The truth is every GM has a reason why he makes a particular move but that doesn't justify the reasoning behind the move or if the risk was worth taking .

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01-02-2013, 05:25 PM
  #105
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I'm happy with the Biggs selection. He has the potential to be the type of player we need desperately. Even if he ends up just a 3rd line winger or a 2nd/3rd tweener, he brings those extra little things you look for when you want to win.

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01-02-2013, 05:31 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
...course there's also the nugget that there hasn't been another 21 year old coming off 42 goals in his past 81 GP become available either.
Do you ever wonder why that nugget was available ?

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01-02-2013, 05:32 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
That's all well and good but what does that have to do with people believing that justifies his record with us ?
It's funny that the ONLY thing you believe from Burke is that it shouldn't take 5 years to build a contender. Even if he's admitted it's taken longer than he would have liked, and his 5 years aren't even up yet, you stick to that 5 year timeline like life support.

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01-02-2013, 05:35 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Do you ever wonder why that nugget was available ?
Not really. He demanded market value and wasn't willing to be lowballed. So far, it appears he very accurately assessed his worth.

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01-02-2013, 05:43 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Do you ever wonder why that nugget was available ?
Really? So if Burke had acquired M.Richards would you also be questioning "why he became available"?

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01-02-2013, 05:44 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
It's funny that the ONLY thing you believe from Burke is that it shouldn't take 5 years to build a contender. Even if he's admitted it's taken longer than he would have liked, and his 5 years aren't even up yet, you stick to that 5 year timeline like life support.
WTF are you trying to to say now .

Cup contender in under 5 year - fail

Build from the net out - fail

Build a tough gritty team - fail

Build a highly rated prospect pool ( while having 4 bottom 10 finishes in a row ) - fail

But who gives a **** baby because it's not about the names on the back of the jersey or the crest on the front because it's all about the fat arrogant blowhard in the GM suite .

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01-02-2013, 05:47 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Not really. He demanded market value and wasn't willing to be lowballed. So far, it appears he very accurately assessed his worth.
And Boston assessed his value to there team and it seems they were correct .

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01-02-2013, 05:49 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
Really? So if Burke had acquired M.Richards would you also be questioning "why he became available"?
Every GM should question why a player becomes available , it's part of there job .

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01-02-2013, 05:50 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Every GM should question why a player becomes available , it's part of there job .
I'm sure L.A was questioning M.Richards when he only helped them win a cup.

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01-02-2013, 05:52 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
WTF are you trying to to say now .

Cup contender in under 5 year - fail

Build from the net out - fail

Build a tough gritty team - fail

Build a highly rated prospect pool ( while having 4 bottom 10 finishes in a row ) - fail

But who gives a **** baby because it's not about the names on the back of the jersey or the crest on the front because it's all about the fat arrogant blowhard in the GM suite .

You just agreed with me that you shouldn't put any stock into what Burke says... so you can't blame him for succeeding or failing on something he said he'd do.

Burke has failed thus far at making this team good. Regardless of how it is built, what the prospect pool looks like etc.... thsi team hasn't made the playoffs under his regime.

However thats not to say the team isn't in the right direction... because it is. Its just taken much longer than Burke or any of us even expected... lets face it even if he doesn't make the Kessel deal, this team is still as far away from the playoffs as they are now with Seguin and Hamilton in the fold.

My question is if Burke game in here at the start and said "This team sucks, its gonna take me 8-10 years to make it a contender"... would you be saying he's still on track with his promises?

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01-02-2013, 05:55 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Not really. He demanded market value and wasn't willing to be lowballed. So far, it appears he very accurately assessed his worth.
It also looks Peter Chiarelli accurately assessed Kessel's worth to the Bruins. 4 years later we're still assessing Phil's value to the Leafs.

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01-02-2013, 05:58 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
It also looks Peter Chiarelli accurately assessed Kessel's worth to the Bruins. 4 years later we're still assessing Phil's value to the Leafs.
The problem wasn't Burke's assessment of Kessel. Guy has been a back to back allstar and consistent scorer. Kessel was worth two first rounders, Chiarelli could have gotten similar value from another team.

The problem was Burke's assessment of the roster he had. If those picks are 15 and 20 instead of 2 and 7 we don't even have this discussion.

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01-02-2013, 06:01 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
The problem wasn't Burke's assessment of Kessel. Guy has been a back to back allstar and consistent scorer. Kessel was worth two first rounders, Chiarelli could have gotten similar value from another team.

The problem was Burke's assessment of the roster he had. If those picks are 15 and 20 instead of 2 and 7 we don't even have this discussion.
I agree that Burke was very wrong in looking what he already had on the Leafs roster but he was also wrong in his assessment of what Kessel's talent would translate to on the said team. Either way he totally messed it up.

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01-02-2013, 06:06 PM
  #118
Johny Drama
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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
Since 2009, the Leafs haven't traded away any draft picks or prospects of any significance, and the ones they have traded were in the common type of minor deals for other prospects or capable NHLers(except the JML trade). They've also added quality prospects like Gardiner, Colborne, Percy, and Biggs at the cost of NHL veterans, and have gone after and acquired most of the top undrafted prospects available every summer.

You sure you're not already getting what you're asking for?
You are correct, maybe no significant picks or prospects have been moved since the Kessel deal, but there is a long history of doing so and I'm still unclear if Burke's M.O. is to build patiently or fix it up quick. My biggest fear if the lockout ends is that he moves one of our top prospects or a first rounder trying to pry Luongo from the Canucks.

My response was based on the post that Leaf fans have no patience.

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01-02-2013, 06:10 PM
  #119
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I wanted Matt Puempel.... thought this kid was going to become what Ty Rattie has essentially become.

So basically thats the reason im not working for an NHL team.

With Tyler Biggs, the question isn't if he will make the NHL, it is how soon before he is wearing the Maple Leaf. And when Stuart Percy makes the Marlies full time next year I think a lot of leaf fans will have a much greater appreciation for his skill set

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01-02-2013, 06:12 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
Hindsight is 20/20. If we could go back, and use the 25/30/39 on, say, Gibson and two of Saad/Jenner/Rattie/Jurco/Jaskin, then yeah, I'd be super psyched. But it's always easy to critique drafts after the fact. I do think Biggs is a pretty good NHL prospect (I see him being a good 3rd liner), and I do think Percy has NHL upside. Not perfect picks by any means, but I don't hate the picks either.

With that being said, I do think Leafs scouting staff is below average in general. Compared to the money we pump into it, WAY below average (much like our team, period).
A good many on here critiqued the draft the day it happened, and there hasnt been any evidence to date to be proven wrong. Ok, its early days and still lots of time for our players to develop, so lets hope the folk on here who are criticising are proven wrong...myself included.

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01-02-2013, 06:12 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by leafsfuture View Post
I wanted Matt Puempel.... thought this kid was going to become what Ty Rattie has essentially become.

So basically thats the reason im not working for an NHL team.

With Tyler Biggs, the question isn't if he will make the NHL, it is how soon before he is wearing the Maple Leaf. And when Stuart Percy makes the Marlies full time next year I think a lot of leaf fans will have a much greater appreciation for his skill set
Watched him live the other day, I was impressed.

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01-02-2013, 06:14 PM
  #122
eyeball11
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
And Boston assessed his value to there team and it seems they were correct .
How so? Worst ever winning % saved only by best ever historic goaltending numbers. In fact a few weeks before they won everyone was bemoaning their lack of offense and calling for the GM and coach to be axed.

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01-02-2013, 06:15 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
You just agreed with me that you shouldn't put any stock into what Burke says... so you can't blame him for succeeding or failing on something he said he'd do.

Burke has failed thus far at making this team good. Regardless of how it is built, what the prospect pool looks like etc.... thsi team hasn't made the playoffs under his regime.

However thats not to say the team isn't in the right direction... because it is. Its just taken much longer than Burke or any of us even expected... lets face it even if he doesn't make the Kessel deal, this team is still as far away from the playoffs as they are now with Seguin and Hamilton in the fold.

My question is if Burke game in here at the start and said "This team sucks, its gonna take me 8-10 years to make it a contender"... would you be saying he's still on track with his promises?
We agreed that every GM will try to justify why he made a particular move . Burke laying out his plans of how he wanted to build a team 4 years ago is a different matter .

No one can be certain he's on the right path and the truth is when you finish 26th and your prospect pool is rated in the bottom half of the league it's hard to speculate he's on the right path .

Why make the deal for a proven player if it doesn't get you to your desired goal quicker . I never believed Burke could build a contender in under 5 years and i was flamed by the pro Burke crowd for saying it .

No one has a clue whether Burke can build a contender here regardless of the time frame so all we can judge the guy on is his progress to date .

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01-02-2013, 06:16 PM
  #124
Johny Drama
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As would any executive in professional sports.

Don't act like Burke invented the double talk. He's going to justify every decision he makes. If there were set rules or a book of values for each player like they have for trading cards any of us could do the job.
Agreed, but the problem I find is that BB is his own worst enemy. He just speaks way too much IMO. Would rather have him be more subdued and let his actions do the talking.

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01-02-2013, 06:20 PM
  #125
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How so? Worst ever winning % saved only by best ever historic goaltending numbers. In fact a few weeks before they won everyone was bemoaning their lack of offense and calling for the GM and coach to be axed.
How so .

The Bruins won a cup so you can try to spin it any way you like but at the end of the day they won a cup and Chia correctly assessed PK's cap space could be better spent elsewhere .

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