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Did the 2011 draft hurt us more than anything else?

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01-02-2013, 06:21 PM
  #126
eyeball11
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
How so .

The Bruins won a cup so you can try to spin it any way you like but at the end of the day they won a cup and Chia correctly assessed PK's cap space could be better spent elsewhere .
What spin? You're trying to apply proofs that have more holes than swiss cheese.

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01-02-2013, 06:23 PM
  #127
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The problem wasn't Burke's assessment of Kessel. Guy has been a back to back allstar and consistent scorer. Kessel was worth two first rounders, Chiarelli could have gotten similar value from another team.

The problem was Burke's assessment of the roster he had. If those picks are 15 and 20 instead of 2 and 7 we don't even have this discussion.
Yup. How is Kessel not worth 2 first rounders and a second. Keep in mind, he was traded at age 21. That rarely happens with young talented players.

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01-02-2013, 06:23 PM
  #128
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Really? So if Burke had acquired M.Richards would you also be questioning "why he became available"?
Common, Richards, Carter became available due to the off-ice life they were living in Philly. No secret with that one. Young captain who looked great in the playoffs for Philly....of course it gets questioned.

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01-02-2013, 06:24 PM
  #129
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in 2010', The Bruins missed Kessel badly and it may have cost them a trip to the finals.

In 2011', they won it all. They did so though thanks to arguably the greatest season ever by a goalie.

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01-02-2013, 06:36 PM
  #130
eyeball11
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Yup. How is Kessel not worth 2 first rounders and a second. Keep in mind, he was traded at age 21. That rarely happens with young talented players.
Last comparable to Kessel I can think of was Mats Sundin (in terms of age and high level numbers at said age).

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01-02-2013, 06:40 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Last comparable to Kessel I can think of was Mats Sundin (in terms of age and high level numbers at said age).
Different era, so it's hard to compare. But Clark was a guy drafted first overall and coming off a career year.

As good as Sundin was, he was redundant on Quebec at the time (Shows how much good young talent they had).

Fletcher traded Clark at the perfect time. He was at his peak, before the injuries hit him at a younger age than most.

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01-02-2013, 06:42 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Yup. How is Kessel not worth 2 first rounders and a second. Keep in mind, he was traded at age 21. That rarely happens with young talented players.
He was worth 2 firsts and a second for a team that had all or most core pieces in place and looking to challenge for a cup, not for a team who were starting out on a rebuild.

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01-02-2013, 06:42 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Different era, so it's hard to compare. But Clark was a guy drafted first overall and coming off a career year.

As good as Sundin was, he was redundant on Quebec at the time (Shows how much good young talent they had).

Fletcher traded Clark at the perfect time. He was at his peak, before the injuries hit him at a younger age than most.
Circumstances weren't the same at all, just the only other comparable I can think of in terms of age + demonstrated skill.

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01-02-2013, 06:43 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
What spin? You're trying to apply proofs that have more holes than swiss cheese.
The proof is they won a cup without him . What holes do you see . Chia looked at his roster and believed he could use the cap space to build a better team without PK . The cup proved he was correct .

Unlike certain fans in Toronto most fans believe the goal is to win a cup not to count the number of points an individual player has .

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01-02-2013, 06:45 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
The proof is they won a cup without him . What holes do you see . Chia looked at his roster and believed he could use the cap space to build a better team without PK . The cup proved he was correct .

Unlike certain fans in Toronto most fans believe the goal is to win a cup not to count the number of points an individual player has .
Not only did he win a cup, he was able to re-stock the cupboards so that the Bruins should be pretty competitive for a number of years.

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01-02-2013, 06:45 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
The proof is they won a cup without him . What holes do you see . Chia looked at his roster and believed he could use the cap space to build a better team without PK . The cup proved he was correct .

Unlike certain fans in Toronto most fans believe the goal is to win a cup not to count the number of points an individual player has .
This statement: "they won a cup and Chia correctly assessed PK's cap space could be better spent elsewhere" is a logical fallacy.

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01-02-2013, 06:47 PM
  #137
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Not only did he win a cup, he was able to re-stock the cupboards so that the Bruins should be pretty competitive for a number of years.
That's the real advantage of the move. The trade itself had very little impact on the Cup (that one can actually prove).

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01-02-2013, 06:55 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
This statement: "they won a cup and Chia correctly assessed PK's cap space could be better spent elsewhere" is a logical fallacy.
" Logical fallacy " , maybe you should just admit you're wrong and let it go .

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01-02-2013, 06:56 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Yup. How is Kessel not worth 2 first rounders and a second. Keep in mind, he was traded at age 21. That rarely happens with young talented players.
No one is saying Kessel isn't worth two first rounders and a second. I'm saying that he wasn't worth that to the Leafs.

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01-02-2013, 07:00 PM
  #140
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Why tear yourself up over something you can't change? The trade was made. Move on, or just cheer for another team.

It's been 3 and a half years. Geeze.

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01-02-2013, 07:03 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
No one is saying Kessel isn't worth two first rounders and a second. I'm saying that he wasn't worth that to the Leafs.
I'm also saying he wasn't worth 2 firsts and a 2nd to a team that had finished 7th worst in back to back years and was badly in need of a complete rebuild .

And this isn't a knock on Kessel becaus he wasn't the one who made the deal . This is all on Burke .

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01-02-2013, 07:07 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Why tear yourself up over something you can't change? The trade was made. Move on, or just cheer for another team.

It's been 3 and a half years. Geeze.
I always cheer for the team , some on this board only seem to cheer for the GM .

and this isn't directed at you , although i do consider you a huge homer , i've always believed you've put the team first .

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01-02-2013, 07:14 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I'm also saying he wasn't worth 2 firsts and a 2nd to a team that had finished 7th worst in back to back years and was badly in need of a complete rebuild .

And this isn't a knock on Kessel becaus he wasn't the one who made the deal . This is all on Burke .
Agreed. It's almost as if Burke believed he was walking into the same situation he walked into in Anaheim. That he was a scoring winger, a couple of dmen, and a penatly killer away from serious contention.

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01-02-2013, 07:27 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
Agreed. It's almost as if Burke believed he was walking into the same situation he walked into in Anaheim. That he was a scoring winger, a couple of dmen, and a penatly killer away from serious contention.
Burkes has always been an arrogant blowhard , the cup just pushed him into full god mode .

I remember when he said this was the first team he couldn't elevate the play of simply by his presence . He stopped saying retarded statements like these after multiple bottom 10 finishes

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01-02-2013, 08:24 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He didn't put a stop to anything
He hasn't traded a significant pick or prospect in four years. Are we arguing about what the word "stop" means?

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he simply couldn't justify trading the few remaining assets ( picks/prospects ) he had once he quickie retool failed .
... You just said he didn't stop, now you are saying he did stop... You aren't thinking(or at least typing) straight.

If Burke didn't trade picks/prospects because he couldn't justify it, then isn't that exactly what you want, a GM who recognizes that trading picks/prospects is a bad idea? The guy hasn't done what you are complaining about for four years, and at this point obviously agrees with you, so what's your problem?

Pretty sure you're just out for vengance for the Kessel trade. Get over it FFS.

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This being said we still only had 2 picks in the top 4 rounds this past draft and that's kind of pathetic for a team that finished 26th .
Oh, what great things we'd be headed for if we had Jimmy Vesey and Ben Thomson in the system. Those were the guys that were taken with a third and fourth rounders. Nice word-play there though, most people won't realize that your reference to the "top four rounds" doesn't contain anything to do with the first two rounds.

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01-02-2013, 08:30 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
He hasn't traded a significant pick or prospect in four years. .
What about the one everyone is talking about in this thread?

The high second round pick used to move up a few spots to get Tyler Biggs (4th liner for Team USA).

Second round picks basically built the top six centres in Boston (Bergeron, Krecji) and their elite powerforward (Lucic).

That was a valuable pick.

What about the second round pick used to trade for the final year of Liles' contract (he did nothing for the Leafs, and was a part of the 5th last place team).

This is public knowledge, by the way.

No secret or anything.

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01-02-2013, 08:49 PM
  #147
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What about the second round pick used to trade for the final year of Liles' contract (he did nothing for the Leafs, and was a part of the 5th last place team).
Had Liles left this past July as a UFA you can say it was a waste of a 2nd round pick. However you do forget he signed a 4 year contract extension during the season and he wasn't their worst Defensman.

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01-02-2013, 08:52 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
What about the one everyone is talking about in this thread?
I was responding the general insinuation that trading picks and prospects for current success is something that is a problem that needs to be stopped, when it hasn't been an issue since the Kessel trade.

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The high second round pick used to move up a few spots to get Tyler Biggs (4th liner for Team USA).

Second round picks basically built the top six centres in Boston (Bergeron, Krecji) and their elite powerforward (Lucic).

That was a valuable pick.
Fair enough. I think I agree with that. I like Biggs, but Jenner and another one of the guys available at 39, at this point, looks like a bigger haul.

It was a valuable pick but it's not like it was a complete waste. It was an attempt at swapping some quantity for quality in the prospect pool and it could very well still accomplish that in the long term, which doesn't really go against the idea of not trading away picks/prospects, which was what I was really trying to say.

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What about the second round pick used to trade for the final year of Liles' contract (he did nothing for the Leafs, and was a part of the 5th last place team).
I'll give you that one. But we'll still have to see what Liles does though now that he's going to be here awhile. He could easily have enough good years left in him to make it worth it, especially considering it was Boston's 60th overall pick that we traded.

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This is public knowledge, by the way.

No secret or anything.
Not sure what you are accusing me of here. I'm not attempting to deceive anyone, that's ridiculous.

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01-02-2013, 09:02 PM
  #149
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I'll give you that one. But we'll still have to see what Liles does though now that he's going to be here awhile. He could easily have enough good years left in him to make it worth it, especially considering it was Boston's 60th overall pick that we traded.
Had Toronto traded their own 2012 2nd round pick to Colorado for Liles I have a feeling others would have said it was a bad trade, because then chances are they are not able to select Matt Finn. So it was better Burke trading a pick from another team. Plus since Toronto got that 2nd round pick from Boston making the Stanley Cup Finals which was a condition in the Tomas Kaberle trade, it's almost like they traded Kaberle for Liles which is a good deal.


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01-02-2013, 09:14 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Yup. How is Kessel not worth 2 first rounders and a second. Keep in mind, he was traded at age 21. That rarely happens with young talented players.
Kessel was worth two mid level 1st rounders and a 2nd.
It was a risk for both teams.
If the picks turn out to be in the 20's, then the leafs steal Kessel.
If the picks are mid level, it was an even trade for both sides.
If the picks drop to (lol) 2nd and 9th overall, then it becomes an apocalypse.

Remember, Boston correctly saw Kessel as expendable to the future of their team (as proven by their Stanley Cup win 2 years later), and were looking for decent level picks in return.
Never in their wildest dreams did they think Burke would trade 2 first round picks if they even had a chance of falling to 2nd overall.
As GM, trades like this are BURKES responsibility. His SPECIFIC JOB is to assess his team and make trades/signings based on that. To trade two first round picks and then finish 2nd last and 9th last is 100% verifiable proof that Burke is terrible at his job.

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