Best F-D-G combination ever?

Nazem Gretzky · 01-01-2013, 02:05 PM

In 1985-86 Gretzky + Coffey put up 353 points.

Three-hundred....and fifty three

2 players

Izzy Mandelbaum · 01-01-2013, 02:11 PM

Doesn't matter who the forward is with Lidstrom and Hasek.

Hasek is easily the greatest goalie ever, and Lidstrom is a top 3 defenseman.

**Machinehead** · 01-01-2013, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph

In 1985-86 Gretzky + Coffey put up 353 points.

Three-hundred....and fifty three

2 players

On a team that gave up over 300 goals.

The reason that trio isn't the best is the same reason those Oilers teams aren't the best: they weren't elite both ways.

Nazem Gretzky · 01-01-2013, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead

On a team that gave up over 300 goals.

The reason that trio isn't the best is the same reason those Oilers teams aren't the best: they weren't elite both ways.

In that season Gretzky and Coffey were #1 and #2 on the team with +71 and +61 respectively

I don't think your argument holds up.

MessierII · 01-01-2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead

On a team that gave up over 300 goals.

The reason that trio isn't the best is the same reason those Oilers teams aren't the best: they weren't elite both ways.

Yeah they cruised to 5 cups in 7 years by not being the best.

ricky0034 · 01-01-2013, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fst6

Doesn't matter who the forward is with Lidstrom and Hasek.

Hasek is easily the greatest goalie ever, and Lidstrom is a top 3 defenseman.

not really

I love Hasek(he's my favorite hockey player ever actually) but peak Sawchuk and Plante>2002 Hasek

as for Lidstrom he's great and all but so is Harvey,there's a reason tons of people would actually put Harvey ahead of him

and Red Kelly is no more than a few spots behind himself

then of course Howe and Beliveau are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yzerman(especial ly 2002 Yzerman)

really the forwards make this not even close

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero

It's because people are voting based on "peak/prime" because it wasn't specified.

And in a poll of peak/prime, that group should win; it has three of the ten best players ever.

uh what?

Yzerman/Lidstrom/Hasek are 3 of the 10 best players ever?

Lidstrom and Hasek okay sure it's certainly debatable but I can see that

but Yzerman? seriously?

Ivan13 · 01-01-2013, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero

It's because people are voting based on "peak/prime" because it wasn't specified.

And in a poll of peak/prime, that group should win; it has three of the ten best players ever.

Who's in the top 10 players of all time? Steve Yzerman? Surely you jest. He can't hold a jockstrap to the likes of Beliveau or Howe, he isn't even one of the 10 best players at his own position.

And on top of that the 90's Red Wings weren't in their primes at the same time. If we're going by primes I'll take the Avs trio over them without much thinking since I'd always take Sakic over Yzerman, Bourque easily over Lidstrom and Roy easily over Hasek and that line of thinking (basing your vote on primes without taking into account when their prime seasons took place) would be quite ridiculous.

MakeTheGoalsLarger · 01-01-2013, 03:40 PM

beliveau - plante - harvey

of course i haven't sen everyone play, i'm basing my vote on stats .... like most people do

these are the individual awards won by habs players from 55 to 65

1965 Conn Smythe Jean Beliveau
1964 Hart Jean Beliveau
1964 Vezina Charlie Hodge
1962 Hart Jacques Plante
1962 Vezina Jacques Plante
1961 Art Ross Bernie Geoffrion
1961 Hart Bernie Geoffrion
1961 James Norris Doug Harvey
1960 James Norris Doug Harvey
1960 Vezina Jacques Plante
1959 Art Ross Dickie Moore
1959 Calder Ralph Backstrom
1959 James Norris Tom Johnson
1959 Vezina Jacques Plante
1958 Art Ross Dickie Moore
1958 James Norris Doug Harvey
1958 Vezina Jacques Plante
1957 James Norris Doug Harvey
1957 Vezina Jacques Plante
1956 Art Ross Jean Beliveau
1956 Hart Jean Beliveau
1956 James Norris Doug Harvey
1956 Vezina Jacques Plante
1955 Art Ross Bernie Geoffrion
1955 James Norris Doug Harvey

So Beliveau, Plante and Harvey won everything in 1956, including the cup. The conn smythe trophy did not exist at the time.

Vancouver Blazers · 01-01-2013, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MessierII

Yeah they cruised to 5 cups in 7 years by not being the best.

The Plante/Harvey/Beliveau Habs won five in five years.

MessierII · 01-01-2013, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg

The Plante/Harvey/Beliveau Habs won five in five years.

Dominating 21 teams >>>>>>>>>> dominating 6 teams

Karma · 01-01-2013, 05:05 PM

Gretzky - Greatest player in history
Coffey - Put up three 120+ point seasons including a 48 goal season as a defenseman
Fuhr - Hall of famer goalie

'Nuff said.

Detroit would be my second choice

**King Woodballs** · 01-01-2013, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MessierII

I don't get how they aren't dominating. I guess most posters remember the 90's better.

I think 90% of the people on this board are 24 or less

Vancouver Blazers · 01-01-2013, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MessierII

Dominating 21 teams >>>>>>>>>> dominating 6 teams

The teams the Habs played against were better.

Vancouver Blazers · 01-01-2013, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero

01 Avs: Roy was a great goalie, but at his best he's not Plante at his best and certainly not at the end of his career. Bourque was at the end of his career, and was still very good, but no longer "Ray Bourque". Sakic had a great year, but he's still not Beliveau or Howe. And his peak year doesn't outweigh all of the weaknesses in the other two.

Would it be better to go with Sakic/Roy/Foote from 1996?

MastuhNinks · 01-01-2013, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MakeTheGoalsLarger

beliveau - plante - harvey

of course i haven't sen everyone play, i'm basing my vote on stats .... like most people do

these are the individual awards won by habs players from 55 to 65

1965 Conn Smythe Jean Beliveau
1964 Hart Jean Beliveau
1964 Vezina Charlie Hodge
1962 Hart Jacques Plante
1962 Vezina Jacques Plante
1961 Art Ross Bernie Geoffrion
1961 Hart Bernie Geoffrion
1961 James Norris Doug Harvey
1960 James Norris Doug Harvey
1960 Vezina Jacques Plante
1959 Art Ross Dickie Moore
1959 Calder Ralph Backstrom
1959 James Norris Tom Johnson
1959 Vezina Jacques Plante
1958 Art Ross Dickie Moore
1958 James Norris Doug Harvey
1958 Vezina Jacques Plante
1957 James Norris Doug Harvey
1957 Vezina Jacques Plante
1956 Art Ross Jean Beliveau
1956 Hart Jean Beliveau
1956 James Norris Doug Harvey
1956 Vezina Jacques Plante
1955 Art Ross Bernie Geoffrion
1955 James Norris Doug Harvey

So Beliveau, Plante and Harvey won everything in 1956, including the cup. The conn smythe trophy did not exist at the time.

I don't have any problem with taking the Habs trio (it's between them, Oilers and Howe-Wings IMO), but I'd just like to point out that the Vezina back then was as meaningful an award as the Jennings trophy is today. Given how dominant the Habs were Plante did not have to play great to win all those trophies (not saying he didn't play great, just that his hardware is not what makes him such an all-time great).

MakeTheGoalsLarger · 01-01-2013, 07:16 PM

did user with multiple accounts voted decide to put the 2002 red wings on top?

seriously, they are like the rory fitzpatrick of this poll. They don't even deserve to be in the poll.

Eisen · 01-01-2013, 07:23 PM

It's Howe's group for me.

Eskimo44 · 01-01-2013, 07:37 PM

Howe-Kelly-Sawchuck
Gretzky-Coffey-Fuhr
Esposito-Orr-Cheevers
Beliveau-Harvey-Plante
Yzerman-Lidstrom-Hasek
Lafleur-Robinson-Dryden
Hull-Pilote-Hall
Sakic-Bourque-Roy

Any of these 8 and you can't go wrong. I think it's pretty tough to bring the Morenz's and Shore's into this, the game and the position of defense in particular was much different.

MessierII · 01-01-2013, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg

The teams the Habs played against were better.

I don't think so.

Eskimo44 · 01-01-2013, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fst6

Doesn't matter who the forward is with Lidstrom and Hasek.

Hasek is easily the greatest goalie ever, and Lidstrom is a top 3 defenseman.

I think Glenn Hall, Jacques Plante, Terry Sawchuck, Patrick Roy have much stronger arguments then you realize. IMO Glenn Hall is the greatest goalie ever based on everything i know and have heard. It's always tough to compare generations and place one players accomplishments so far above anothers. Hall revolutionized the position by creating the butterfly style and carrying the expansion St.Louis Blues to 3 consecutive finals. He did win 2 cups which is pretty good for a guy who never played for the Canadiens. Mr. Goalie played in 13 All Star Games and won 3 Veznia's to go with 7 First team all star selections (an NHL record), and 3 second team selections.

Eskimo44 · 01-01-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan13

Who's in the top 10 players of all time? Steve Yzerman? Surely you jest. He can't hold a jockstrap to the likes of Beliveau or Howe, he isn't even one of the 10 best players at his own position.

And on top of that the 90's Red Wings weren't in their primes at the same time. If we're going by primes I'll take the Avs trio over them without much thinking since I'd always take Sakic over Yzerman, Bourque easily over Lidstrom and Roy easily over Hasek and that line of thinking (basing your vote on primes without taking into account when their prime seasons took place) would be quite ridiculous.

Steve Yzerman is a reasonable vote for a top 10 center all time. Sakic over Yzerman is not an easy position.

**Machinehead** · 01-01-2013, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph

In that season Gretzky and Coffey were #1 and #2 on the team with +71 and +61 respectively

I don't think your argument holds up.

Being +71 and +61 has alot to do with putting up 353 points, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MessierII

Yeah they cruised to 5 cups in 7 years by not being the best.

Best of their era? Yes. Best ever? Not even close.

Sasso09 · 01-01-2013, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan13

Who's in the top 10 players of all time? Steve Yzerman? Surely you jest. He can't hold a jockstrap to the likes of Beliveau or Howe, he isn't even one of the 10 best players at his own position.

And on top of that the 90's Red Wings weren't in their primes at the same time. If we're going by primes I'll take the Avs trio over them without much thinking since I'd always take Sakic over Yzerman, Bourque easily over Lidstrom and Roy easily over Hasek and that line of thinking (basing your vote on primes without taking into account when their prime seasons took place) would be quite ridiculous.

Dude.. Yzerman, lidstrom and Hasek are pretty much as a whole.. Even with Sakic, Bourque, Roy.... In fact

Sakic = Yzerman
Bourque =< lidstrom
Roy >= Hasek ( I personally rather have Hasek he's my favorite player of all time along with Bure )

MessierII · 01-01-2013, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead

Being +71 and +61 has alot to do with putting up 353 points, no?

Best of their era? Yes. Best ever? Not even close.

You kidding look at that roster. The 70's Habs are the only team that you can even make a case for as far as greatest teams of all time.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper · 01-01-2013, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead

I'm gonna go with Lafleur-Robinson-Dryden

I would argue it's the most balanced of the group with a super-elite talent at all 3 positions, it had all 3 of them in their prime and together for a long time, and most importantly, all 3 of them were the best at their respective positions (F, D, G) on the 1976-77 Habs, which for my money is the greatest team in NHL history.

You can use that same argument for Beliveau-Harvey-Plante.

All 3 are generally considered better at their respective positions, too.