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NHL Lockout Discussion XLIII: A Change Is Gonna Come

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Old
01-03-2013, 03:54 PM
  #176
BostonBruins92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplySensational View Post
Renaud Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
I've been told that Gary Bettman was in the afternoon meeting with the players. Not true. Mediator was.

https://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDS/sta...52279926521857

Interesting, shows the mediators are siding with owners. No wonder Fehr is pissed about them.
How? I don't think D. Fehr was there either.

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01-03-2013, 03:54 PM
  #177
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The media should just go home and give up following and reporting on any NHL CBA talks. Stop giving this damn league any more press until both sides can get their **** together and have some real news to report on.

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Old
01-03-2013, 03:55 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by unifiedtheory View Post
If you're selling 4 tickets and 4 hot dogs and 4 beverages for $200 along with free parking then yes, it is.

Ask fans in Vancouver paying $150 a ticket, $10 a beer and $40 to park if they want to prop up bad markets, all the while the quality of the product suffers.

Same cap this year as was scheduled.

67 million (with a floor set to the 60 million dollar level) for 13/14.

Fully linked cap for 14/15.

This allows well built and planned teams to stay how they INTENDED. With no cap on escrow there is no risk for owners.
You're not really making any sort of argument here. You're merely making an emotional plea (fans of X team have to see their money go to prop up Y team), and attaching it to a scenario that ignores basic principles of supply and demand. Fans in Vancouver aren't paying high prices because of revenue sharing. They are paying high prices because there is a high enough demand for the product to justify those prices. Essentially, they are paying high prices because they are willing to. It isn't the fault of "bad" markets.

Revenue sharing is actually good for the overall product, not bad. The product will not suffer. In fact, the past seven years of growth in the NHL pretty much throws a wrench in that argument. Teams have always been required to meet certain benchmarks to be eligible for either tier of revenue sharing. It isn't just money thrown around in hopes of things improving. The new RS model seems to be focusing on fixing the issue at the source by providing on-site assistance and counseling with regards to business practices.

Or we could just... you know... get really pissed off about something that is actually a good thing because we are looking at it the wrong way.

Simply put, a lack of revenue sharing will not reduce the price that fans in Vancouver or Boston or Toronto pay for tickets, parking and beer (beer is, of course, a necessity to have fun at a hockey game). However, it, along with your proposed $60m cap floor, will further cripple a good chunk of the teams that make up the league.

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01-03-2013, 03:55 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
So essentially the owners have caved over and over and when this deal is up another lockout will ensue.

Awesome.
This is an interesting perspective. I am starting to think that the owners are too stupid to get THEMSELVES together and stand hard on a principal that they feel will give a 30 team league a chance for success.

The last lockout was a screw up, and there were a number of owners that felt it was not going to be a "long-term fix" (despite this crap that they had this overwhelming victory). Seems they are back to the same script - start strong, then cave when they feel the players are too resolved. All the while doing damage to the game to just have the Leafs, Habs and Rangers make more?

I have always maintained that the players were out of their mind losing even one paycheck - now I'm wondering if the owners are really winning anything collectively with this lockout?

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01-03-2013, 03:55 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
That legal memo has Steve Fehr's address on it... Heh.

Perhaps they should take it down.
Maybe we should do something similar to the NFL and bombard Fehr's voicemail?

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01-03-2013, 03:55 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
haha, replacement players. Arenas would have 1000 people and that is only if they slash ticket prices 90%.
Hey, I'd go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
If another lockout ensues it's because of their unwillingness to promote stability with revenue sharing.
I'm really getting confused at this point. I thought revenue sharing had been agreed upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplySensational View Post
Renaud Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
I've been told that Gary Bettman was in the afternoon meeting with the players. Not true. Mediator was.

https://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDS/sta...52279926521857

Interesting, shows the mediators are siding with owners. No wonder Fehr is pissed about them.
That's simply incorrect. That's how mediators work. They meet and talk with one side, then they meet and talk with the other. They don't all meet together, they meet separately so they can talk in confidence and not "show their hand" to the other side.

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01-03-2013, 03:55 PM
  #182
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So Fehr screamed to have the mediators... and now is pissed because they don't favor him? That has to be speculation used incorrectly. If it isn't...it's ironic and funny as hell.

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01-03-2013, 03:56 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Yes. And others have called it a vital issue.
Not calling you out but I'd like to see the numerical justification of such a claim. I'm curious to see the other end of things because the case of revenue sharing reaching higher levels and not doing a whole lot for the NHL seemed like a sound case. The numbers looked like it backed up the story as well.

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01-03-2013, 03:56 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
And the Union would dissolve in a heartbeat and players would just jump ranks and play.
I suspect the PA believes it's about leverage but I am still wondering...

If the PA need to vote again on the DOI are the two sides really that close?

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01-03-2013, 03:57 PM
  #185
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Jeez, Steve Fehr's phone number, address, and e-mail are all over that thing.

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01-03-2013, 03:57 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
So Fehr screamed to have the mediators... and now is pissed because they don't favor him? That has to be speculation used incorrectly. If it isn't...it's ironic and funny as hell.
Where does it say they dont favour him? link?

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01-03-2013, 03:57 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
So Fehr screamed to have the mediators... and now is pissed because they don't favor him? That has to be speculation used incorrectly. If it isn't...it's ironic and funny as hell.
Well Bettman said the mediation wanted to return to talk early this morning and they haven't had a real meeting yet. But it seems expected more than anything, don't forget the stalling tactic of Mr. Beatlejuice is one of his favorites. Maybe his only one actually.

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01-03-2013, 03:57 PM
  #188
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So why did the first vote last 5+ days and this one is only 48 hrs?

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01-03-2013, 03:58 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
So Fehr screamed to have the mediators... and now is pissed because they don't favor him? That has to be speculation used incorrectly. If it isn't...it's ironic and funny as hell.
He only wanted the mediators as a delay tactic

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01-03-2013, 03:58 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by TCsmyth View Post
This is an interesting perspective. I am starting to think that the owners are too stupid to get THEMSELVES together and stand hard on a principal that they feel will give a 30 team league a chance for success.

The last lockout was a screw up, and there were a number of owners that felt it was not going to be a "long-term fix" (despite this crap that they had this overwhelming victory). Seems they are back to the same script - start strong, then cave when they feel the players are too resolved. All the while doing damage to the game to just have the Leafs, Habs and Rangers make more?

I have always maintained that the players were out of their mind losing even one paycheck - now I'm wondering if the owners are really winning anything collectively with this lockout?
No one wins this lockout.

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01-03-2013, 03:58 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Jeez, Steve Fehr's phone number, address, and e-mail are all over that thing.
If only it were Beatlejuice's instead. I may be more interested.

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01-03-2013, 03:58 PM
  #192
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Where does it say they dont favour him? link?
Mediators don't favor either side. They try to get the sides to meet on middle ground.

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01-03-2013, 03:58 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by unifiedtheory View Post
It appears to me that we have come down to this:

The owner's want to drop the cap ceiling, which lowers the floor. That's it.

They have unlimited escrow, yet they still won't get off the lower cap, lower floor thing. That makes this ENTIRE exercise about helping the bottom 10 markets. It's a major kick in the teeth to the paying customer in cities (Vancouver, Toronto, New York, Boston etc) who pay the highest prices and sell out. Meanwhile, with a lower floor, teams in bad markets who have low prices get to continue running their business poorly and make money doing it.

**** the owners.

I was 50/50 before. No longer. As a fan of a well run, profitable team I can not tolerate a league that changes the rules so quickly, forcing my GM to partially dismantle his team just so garbage market teams can stop losing their shirts.

I hope the players stand firm and the season gets **** canned. Dropping the cap to 60 AND getting unlimited escrow proves the owners' greed. Instead of a triple they are trying to hit a home run with this CBA.
Actually, the poorly run franchises in markets where fans continue supporting the teams with record revenues regardless of performance (hello Toronto and Montreal!) are causing the league's issues. They are the ones who screw things up for the profitability of all the well run middle of the pack teams. It's also incorrect to say all small market teams are run poorly. Some are simply small market teams, some are merely not that good. Phoenix is actually extremely well GM'd and coached - calling them a "horrible team" is showing a marked ignorance of the facts.

Also, get Boston off the list of poor persecuted fans. They didn't show up post lockout when the team was no good and they currently are just above both average and median ticket prices. The only reason they are currently well run is because of the cap - they wouldn't spend in an unlimited fashion and were horrible before the cap was instituted.

The owners are trying to institute rules to make sure that the teams that don't just print money have a chance to be competitive as well. They aren't doing nearly enough to make it work long term, but the players aren't interested in doing anything whatsoever other than line their own pockets. Or hadn't you noticed they stopped talking about any actual mechanisms for improving the small markets and are just hung up on mechanisms for allowing the large markets to keep poaching the star players? I'm not pro-owner so much as I'm pro-Ducks(pro-small market in genera)l, and the owners are the only ones even marginally looking out for my interests. (I'm a season ticket holder, so yes, they're my interests. I'm not driving into LA to watch hockey)


Last edited by TMI: 01-03-2013 at 04:01 PM. Reason: flame
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Old
01-03-2013, 03:59 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I really do wish this was more apparent to the players several months ago. They have been absolutely taken to the cleaners, not by the owners but by their own leadership.
+1000000

It's amazing. There was a point where Fehr got them to their best deal.


Not his best deal, you know the one on paper that shows a short CBA, better pension, longer contracts.

But the best deal that would have ensured the best revenue streams going forward.


Now his best deal won't come with an Asterisk stating the NHL between 2013-2020 grossed 4.41 billion less in revenue than would have due to the work stoppage in 2012.


But Don Fehr will have negotiated the best deal on paper.

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01-03-2013, 04:00 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
haha, replacement players. Arenas would have 1000 people and that is only if they slash ticket prices 90%.
Are you crazy? Here in Edmonton, the Oil could bring in replacement players for our roster (guys we've waited a LONG time for) and Rexall would still be sold out every night. Hell, management could probably even raise ticket prices at this point.

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01-03-2013, 04:00 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
Not calling you out but I'd like to see the numerical justification of such a claim. I'm curious to see the other end of things because the case of revenue sharing reaching higher levels and not doing a whole lot for the NHL seemed like a sound case. The numbers looked like it backed up the story as well.
Months ago someone on the BoH forum crunched the numbers and with 100% revenue sharing (and assuming all teams would have paid the same amount to the players under such a system), all 30 teams would have made a profit.

100% revenue sharing is probably never going to happen though...but it would be cool to see the league promote stability for itself by moving towards such a model.

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01-03-2013, 04:00 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by SelleckStache View Post
He only wanted the mediators as a delay tactic
A delay from what?
It's not like the NHL was knocking on his door and demanding that negotiations get restarted. What exactly was he delaying? The mediators were pretty much a waste o ftime but they did not delay anything.

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01-03-2013, 04:01 PM
  #198
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Jeez, Steve Fehr's phone number, address, and e-mail are all over that thing.
Address appears to be to a law firm, no biggie. I'd bet the phone number is also a company phone as well. Email looks personal though.

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01-03-2013, 04:02 PM
  #199
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Where are these reports of Fehr being upset with the mediator?

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01-03-2013, 04:03 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
That's simply incorrect. That's how mediators work. They meet and talk with one side, then they meet and talk with the other. They don't all meet together, they meet separately so they can talk in confidence and not "show their hand" to the other side.
Federal mediators don't caucus.

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