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Are we ever going to close Guantanamo?

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Old
01-03-2013, 08:47 PM
  #51
thestonedkoala
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Originally Posted by Kadri43 View Post
I knew the answer, you just proved my point. If you cannot give them a trial than who is to say they did anything wrong. Habeas corpus has its origins since 1215 (the Magna Carta). They should be shipped back to their country immediately.
And if they kill a bunch of Canadians and Americans? You think the fall out is going to be that no one is to blame?

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01-03-2013, 09:00 PM
  #52
slip
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
When your posts are as over-the-top cynical, wild-eyed and crazy as yours, you should expect facepalms and insults. Much in the same way that I have no interest in engaging in a serious policy discussion with the mentally insane homeless man who is hurling expletives and his own feces.
I'm sorry you're intellectually estranged from your father. I really am.

But more to the point, I know it's hard for you to fathom how the United States can maintain a "vast network of gulags," when domestically it has over 2 million prisoners, or roughly 25% of the world's prison population, but only 5% of total population. Clearly prisons, detention centers, metaphorically speaking, good ole' Soviet style gulags, are anathema to the American ethos, correct?

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01-03-2013, 09:02 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
I'm sorry you're intellectually estranged from your father. I really am.

But more to the point, I know it's hard for you to fathom how the United States can maintain a "vast network of gulags," when domestically it has over 2 million prisoners, or roughly 25% of the world's prison population, but only 5% of total population. Clearly prisons, detention centers, metaphorically speaking, good ole' Soviet style gulags, are anathema to the American ethos, correct?
Except that they are nothing alike to "good old Soviet style gulags", and it is intellectually dishonest of you to try to associate the two.

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01-03-2013, 09:03 PM
  #54
slip
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Except that they are nothing alike to "good old Soviet style gulags", and it is intellectually dishonest of you to try to associate the two.
Gitmo is nothing like a gulag?

Please...

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01-03-2013, 09:08 PM
  #55
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Classic HF poltical board BS: latch onto one word used metaphorically (gulag) and ignore the whole ****ing point, which is the U.S. has a vast network of secret prisons and torture centers across the globe, of which Gitmo is just one small piece.

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01-03-2013, 09:15 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Gitmo is nothing like a gulag?

Please...
Now who refuses to see the truth?

How many people have been killed in these CIA prison? How many people have been killed in the Gulags?

How many people are dying of hunger in the CIA prison? How many are dying of cold? How many are beaten up? How many are put into forced labor?


You may throw a tantrum as much as you'd like and try to change the topic again, but it doesn't change the fact that you made an ass of yourself by comparing some of the most psychopathic prisons of the 20th century with the CIA prison network.

Just for make a silly political point. You want people to take you seriously? Start arguing seriously.


Last edited by PricePkPatch: 01-03-2013 at 09:24 PM. Reason: lapsus
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01-03-2013, 09:21 PM
  #57
slip
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Now who refuses to see the truth?

How many people have been killed in these CIA prison? How many people have been killed in the Gulags?

How many people are dying of hunger in the CIA prison? How many are dying of cold? How many are beaten up? How many are put into forced labor?


You may throw a tantrum as much as you'd like and try to change the topic again, but it doesn't change the fact that you made an ass of yourself by comparing some of the most psychopathic prisons of the 20th century with the CIA prison network.

Just for make a silly political point. You can people to take you seriously? Start arguing seriously.


Do we hand out Golden Globes for best dramatic post? Cause if we do, I think we got us a winner....

gu·lag also Gu·lag (gläg)
n.
1. A network of forced labor camps in the former Soviet Union.
2. A forced labor camp or prison, especially for political dissidents.
3. A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gulag


Last edited by slip: 01-03-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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01-03-2013, 09:31 PM
  #58
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It's neither 1, 2 or 3

I wonder exactly what was your ****ing point with that.


And you call me dramatic? mwahaha

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01-03-2013, 09:39 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Classic HF poltical board BS: latch onto one word used metaphorically (gulag) and ignore the whole ****ing point, which is the U.S. has a vast network of secret prisons and torture centers across the globe, of which Gitmo is just one small piece.
This needs to be repeated, before Price takes us over the semantic edge with his understanding (or lack thereof) of the concepts of "prison" and "dissident."

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01-03-2013, 09:49 PM
  #60
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Now who refuses to see the truth?

How many people have been killed in these CIA prison? How many people have been killed in the Gulags?

How many people are dying of hunger in the CIA prison? How many are dying of cold? How many are beaten up? How many are put into forced labor?


You may throw a tantrum as much as you'd like and try to change the topic again, but it doesn't change the fact that you made an ass of yourself by comparing some of the most psychopathic prisons of the 20th century with the CIA prison network.

Just for make a silly political point. You want people to take you seriously? Start arguing seriously.
Exactly. He instinctively goes to the most over-the-top cynical thing he can say (especially when the subject involves the U.S. government), then when he gets called out and ridiculed, he accuses other people of name-calling and being ignorant.

Besides the blatant difference in numbers and brutality, the Soviet Union was a totalitarian state and was imprisoning its own people who were perceived to be opposed to the government. The people being detained in CIA-sponsored facilities are from other countries and have either engaged in or are suspected of engaging in terrorist activities against western nations. They aren't being held because they're agitating against the U.S. political system. If that were the case then slip should be rounded up any day now (and frankly, this would be a welcome development for this message board).

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01-03-2013, 09:54 PM
  #61
Tim Calhoun
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Besides the blatant difference in numbers and brutality, the Soviet Union was a totalitarian state and was imprisoning its own people who were perceived to be opposed to the government.
Sounds like America's two "greatest" presidents.

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01-03-2013, 09:56 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Classic HF poltical board BS: latch onto one word used metaphorically (gulag) and ignore the whole ****ing point, which is the U.S. has a vast network of secret prisons and torture centers across the globe, of which Gitmo is just one small piece.
This needs to be repeated, before Ilkka drives us over the logical edge with his penchant for straw man.

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01-03-2013, 09:58 PM
  #63
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by Tim Calhoun View Post
Sounds like America's two "greatest" presidents.
Yeah besides the scale and brutality thing, and the totalitarian government.

Maybe slip went to far by calling them gulags... let's just call them American concentration camps.

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01-03-2013, 10:04 PM
  #64
thestonedkoala
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Originally Posted by Tim Calhoun View Post
Sounds like America's two "greatest" presidents.
Typical HF post. Let's ignore history and the change in climate. Like everything else.

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01-03-2013, 10:04 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Yeah besides the scale and brutality thing, and the totalitarian government.

Maybe slip went to far by calling them gulags... let's just call them American concentration camps.
Focus, Ilkka, focus.

Is there or is there not a vast network of CIA prison camps spread across Europe, Africa, and central Asia?

Let's abandon the word "gulag" for now, since it's historical connotations are obviously making it impossible for you to grasp my primary point.

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01-03-2013, 10:07 PM
  #66
Tim Calhoun
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Typical HF post. Let's ignore history and the change in climate. Like everything else.
I don't see how that is even remotely relevant. If you want to talk about climate change, start your own thread.

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01-03-2013, 10:11 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Focus, Ilkka, focus.

Is there or is there not a vast network of CIA prison camps spread across Europe, Africa, and central Asia?

Let's abandon the word "gulag" for now, since it's historical connotations are obviously making it impossible for you to grasp my primary point.
Your lack of grasp of history makes it impossible for you to make your point in the first place.


There is a relatively vast (but not as extensive as you'd make it out to be) network of CIA rendition. Not that many of them are interrogation or detention centers, many of them are merely transit or "collection" locations.

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01-03-2013, 10:11 PM
  #68
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I don't see how that is even remotely relevant. If you want to talk about climate change, start your own thread.
"But, but, I have over 100 years of weather data, and a penchant for drawing accidental correlations?

Oh, alright...."

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01-03-2013, 10:12 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
(BTW, it's a loaded question, because everyone around here knows you don't bring evidence to the table, only insults, ad hominems, and a healthy dose of facepalms).
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I'm sorry you're intellectually estranged from your father. I really am.
Way to not get dragged down to the ad hominem level.

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01-03-2013, 10:12 PM
  #70
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Sounds like America's two "greatest" presidents.
FDR and ......... ?

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01-03-2013, 10:13 PM
  #71
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FDR and ......... ?
Lincoln probably, for suspending habeas corpus during the Civil War.

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01-03-2013, 10:14 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Your lack of grasp of history makes it impossible for you to make your point in the first place.


There is a relatively vast (but not as extensive as you'd make it out to be) network of CIA rendition. Not that many of them are interrogation or detention centers, many of them are merely transit or "collection" locations.
Oh, there's a "relatively vast network" of camps, but that's much different from when I say "a vast network" of camps. Okay. Got it.

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01-03-2013, 10:19 PM
  #73
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Oh, there's a "relatively vast network" of camps, but that's much different from when I say "a vast network" of camps. Okay. Got it.
They are certainly less numerous than the goulags or concentration camps were. And they... "service" much, much less people.

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01-03-2013, 10:20 PM
  #74
Ilkka Sinisalo
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slip says there is a vast network of torture centers. evidence that torture has been widespread during the Obama administration: <citation missing>

If people are going to bring up issues like secret prisons and CIA detention, then at least be honest enough to admit that prisoners-of-war have always existed and that the U.S. mission against Islamic militants is essentially a war. There have been numerous terrorist attacks against U.S. and other western interests by Islamic extremists.

If you're arguing that these detention centers should not exist, then what is your solution? Just sit back and do nothing? Keep letting planes fly into buildings and leave Afghanistan to be a large-scale breeding ground and training center for Islamic extremism? Since the World Trade Center was attacked by a terrorist group not directly identified with a single nation, the U.S. isn't allowed to defend itself as it did after Pearl Harbor? Tell us what you think should happen.

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01-03-2013, 10:39 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
slip says there is a vast network of torture centers. evidence that torture has been widespread during the Obama administration: <citation missing>

If people are going to bring up issues like secret prisons and CIA detention, then at least be honest enough to admit that prisoners-of-war have always existed and that the U.S. mission against Islamic militants is essentially a war. There have been numerous terrorist attacks against U.S. and other western interests by Islamic extremists.

If you're arguing that these detention centers should not exist, then what is your solution? Just sit back and do nothing? Keep letting planes fly into buildings and leave Afghanistan to be a large-scale breeding ground and training center for Islamic extremism? Since the World Trade Center was attacked by a terrorist group not directly identified with a single nation, the U.S. isn't allowed to defend itself as it did after Pearl Harbor? Tell us what you think should happen.
Easy tiger, one question at a time. Before you burden me with the task of rethinking our entire approach to foreign policy, at least do me the courtesy of acknowledging that my primary contention -- that there are dozens of Gitmos -- was correct. We can sit here all day and debate the derivative meanings of "gulag" and express great anger and furious outrage over the metaphorical linkage of Stalin's forced labor camps to America's penchant for the secret prison camp, but the fundamental point is unarguable: the U.S. has a vast network of Gitmo's spread all over the globe whose very existence undermine the very principles of humanity we purport to represent and defend. Closing the actual Gitmo does nothing to resolve this moral dilemma.

That said, you're obviously a big fan of the war on terror. Most Liberals are. I guess it's why the military budget is a trillion strong, and nobody bats and eyelash.

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