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Are we ever going to close Guantanamo?

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01-03-2013, 11:06 PM
  #76
Burke the Legend
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The lefty menopausal angst is off the charts in this thread

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01-03-2013, 11:24 PM
  #77
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
the U.S. has a vast network of Gitmo's spread all over the globe whose very existence undermine the very principles of humanity we purport to represent and defend. Closing the actual Gitmo does nothing to resolve this moral dilemma.
Wrong. Most of the people in custody are, or would have been in previous wars, POWs. They can't be considered as such because there was no formal declaration of war and the end point of the war is indefinite. Again, you have said nothing about what you would have done.

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That said, you're obviously a big fan of the war on terror. Most Liberals are. I guess it's why the military budget is a trillion strong, and nobody bats and eyelash.
Well I have no idea how to respond, because I don't live in a black and white world where one is either for the "War on Terror" or against it. I agree with some of the things the US does, and disagree with others. I'm not going to get into specifics with someone who doesn't have the balls to lay out what he would have done.

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01-03-2013, 11:29 PM
  #78
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No. Neither will the CIA black site prisons in Poland. Or the various torture farms.

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01-03-2013, 11:30 PM
  #79
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Easy tiger, one question at a time. Before you burden me with the task of rethinking our entire approach to foreign policy, at least do me the courtesy of acknowledging that my primary contention -- that there are dozens of Gitmos -- was correct. We can sit here all day and debate the derivative meanings of "gulag" and express great anger and furious outrage over the metaphorical linkage of Stalin's forced labor camps to America's penchant for the secret prison camp, but the fundamental point is unarguable: the U.S. has a vast network of Gitmo's spread all over the globe whose very existence undermine the very principles of humanity we purport to represent and defend. Closing the actual Gitmo does nothing to resolve this moral dilemma.

That said, you're obviously a big fan of the war on terror. Most Liberals are. I guess it's why the military budget is a trillion strong, and nobody bats and eyelash.
Well I disagree with the fact that most liberals are fans of the war on terror as its some sort of made up cliche to get the American public on board with the **** going on overseas. However most of the liberals I know including myself think its ******** made up to support all forms of military actions in the Mideast.

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01-03-2013, 11:31 PM
  #80
Ilkka Sinisalo
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01-03-2013, 11:33 PM
  #81
slip
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Wrong. Most of the people in custody are, or would have been in previous wars, POWs. They can't be considered as such because there was no formal declaration of war and the end point of the war is indefinite. Again, you have said nothing about what you would have done.

Uh, not inaugurate an indefinite war against unspecified enemies to start.

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01-03-2013, 11:34 PM
  #82
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And you're posting a picture of you and your cat because.....?

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01-03-2013, 11:36 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
No. Neither will the CIA black site prisons in Poland. Or the various torture farms.

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01-03-2013, 11:41 PM
  #84
Ilkka Sinisalo
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The Canadian military is actually the one employing torture. Did you really think that the maple syrup was just stolen? They're using it for an especially devious and horrible form of "enhanced interrogation." Maple syrup boarding.

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01-03-2013, 11:45 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
The Canadian military is actually the one employing torture. Did you really think that the maple syrup was just stolen? They're using it for an especially devious and horrible form of "enhanced interrogation." Maple syrup boarding.
Maple syrup is way too viscous.

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01-03-2013, 11:54 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
The Canadian military is actually the one employing torture. Did you really think that the maple syrup was just stolen? They're using it for an especially devious and horrible form of "enhanced interrogation." Maple syrup boarding.
Look, a pro-war-on-terror liberal making fun of torture! I think Dick Cheney just smiled.

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01-04-2013, 01:25 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Tim Calhoun View Post
I don't see how that is even remotely relevant. If you want to talk about climate change, start your own thread.
You're being too literal. The political climate and the entire American culture has changed since Lincoln and Washington.

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01-04-2013, 06:11 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post

If you're arguing that these detention centers should not exist, then what is your solution? Just sit back and do nothing? Keep letting planes fly into buildings and leave Afghanistan to be a large-scale breeding ground and training center for Islamic extremism? Since the World Trade Center was attacked by a terrorist group not directly identified with a single nation, the U.S. isn't allowed to defend itself as it did after Pearl Harbor? Tell us what you think should happen.
I did some research on this question a few years ago in a foreign policy class. One of the best solutions would be to leave the holy land. Western presence there breeds the hatred felt towards us. The brutal sanctions prior to 2001 against Iraq by the Americans killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. In reality, the hatred for western nations breeds islamic extremism. Not to mention the US helped fund the mujahideen against the soviets. The movement became known as the Taliban. The United States helped fund a movement that started a massive civil war after the Soviets left while doing nothing to stop the movement they funded. Millions were left dead and homeless.

What should the US do? Well I know what they should not be doing. All western presence there makes for more hatred. 9/11 was terrible but what the western nations have been doing to the middle east for decades was much worse. Getting rid of indefinite detention centres without a trial would be a good first step.

Here is a video by the great Noam Chomsky and Ron Paul to support my view that western presence causes the hatred and resultant attacks of 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01e8-zSLkg0

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01-04-2013, 06:16 AM
  #89
Ilkka Sinisalo
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I'm not talking about before 9/11. That ship sailed during the previous 50 years. I'm talking about after 9/11, in real life during the past decade, what should the U.S. government have done? Said "our foreign policy was lousy, you sure got us, now we're even"?

Please note that the U.S. Congress authorized the use of the U.S. armed forces in response to the 9/11 attacks by a combined vote of 508 to 1. The one vote against came from a woman who represents, among other places, Berkeley and thinks there should be a Department of Peace. So if you are going to argue that the U.S. should not have used force in response to 9/11, let's just say that you'll be taking quite an extreme position.


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01-04-2013, 06:39 AM
  #90
Kadri43
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
I'm not talking about before 9/11. That ship sailed during the previous 50 years. I'm talking about after 9/11, in real life during the past decade, what should the U.S. government have done? Said "our foreign policy was lousy, you sure got us, now we're even"?
I am not sure that Nato forces can make the region any better. Increased presence fuels hatred. I guess the forces should have left the area around the time Bin Laden was found. Obama said the US will leave in 2014. I am pretty sure increased presence until that date will make make more enemies. You have soliders pissing on dead bodies, accidental burnings of the Quran and incidents of soliders going crazy murdering countless civilians including women and children. Furthermore, the mission costs the United States about 2 billion dollars a week. The federal government is broke.

here is a source of what I am talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkxhmp9H3yc

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01-04-2013, 06:44 AM
  #91
Ilkka Sinisalo
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here is a source of what I am talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkxhmp9H3yc
I'm sure that American journalists calling Afghanistan a God-forsaken hellhole is sure to gain us plenty of friends over there.

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01-04-2013, 06:50 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Kadri43 View Post
Here is a video by the great Noam Chomsky and Ron Paul to support my view that western presence causes the hatred and resultant attacks of 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01e8-zSLkg0
Paul and Chomsky? I can't imagine a pair more anathema to the Liberal foreign policy circle jerk going on in this thread, with Ilkka manning the pivot of course.

Liberal lap top bombardier talking point: express tremendous outrage when 20 children are murdered in cold blood; Express great pride when tens of millions of Middle Easterners are plunged into war, ethnic cleansing, and rampant lawlessness in order to exact revenge against Saudi terrorists.

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01-04-2013, 07:00 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Paul and

Liberal lap top bombardier talking point: express tremendous outrage when 20 children are murdered in cold blood; Express great pride when tens of millions of Middle Easterners are plunged into war, ethnic cleansing, and rampant lawlessness in order to exact revenge against Saudi terrorists.
What is the saying going around? something like kill 20 children in connecticut and be rightfully labelled a monster but kill 168 children in drone bombings and be times magazine man of the year. I do not know where the quote came from but it went something like that.

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01-04-2013, 07:06 AM
  #94
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by Kadri43 View Post
I am pretty sure increased presence until that date will make make more enemies. You have soliders pissing on dead bodies, accidental burnings of the Quran and incidents of soliders going crazy murdering countless civilians including women and children. Furthermore, the mission costs the United States about 2 billion dollars a week. The federal government is broke.
Money should not be an issue. America started the war in Afghanistan; America should do what's right regardless of cost.

As for what you said earlier, I'm not "pretty sure" that the "increased presence" (what increased presence?) will make more enemies. You act like there is no downside with leaving now. What if the new government doesn't have enough legitimacy, and the Taliban takes control of the country again? I would venture a guess that all the people who enjoyed more freedoms from not living under a lunatic Islamist regime would be pretty angry at the U.S. for throwing in the towel. Then you've got a regime back in power that openly allowed terrorist training camps and encouraged religious fanaticism.

So if western forces leave now, will Afghanistan slide back into Taliban rule? Would it have happened if western forces left 5 years ago? Will it happen whenever western forces leave in the future? I don't know the answer to any of those questions. But to me, the Taliban not gaining power again is a pretty big deal, both to American security and to the people of Afghanistan.

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01-04-2013, 07:09 AM
  #95
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by Kadri43 View Post
What is the saying going around? something like kill 20 children in connecticut and be rightfully labelled a monster but kill 168 children in drone bombings and be times magazine man of the year. I do not know where the quote came from but it went something like that.
Jesus, is that what slip wrote? Yeah I sure express great pride about ethnic cleansing and widespread Middle Eastern war.

It would behoove you to not agree with slip on anything, he's a complete ass hole, a moron and a hyper-negative piece of garbage.

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01-04-2013, 07:26 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Money should not be an issue. America started the war in Afghanistan; America should do what's right regardless of cost.

As for what you said earlier, I'm not "pretty sure" that the "increased presence" (what increased presence?) will make more enemies. You act like there is no downside with leaving now. What if the new government doesn't have enough legitimacy, and the Taliban takes control of the country again? I would venture a guess that all the people who enjoyed more freedoms from not living under a lunatic Islamist regime would be pretty angry at the U.S. for throwing in the towel. Then you've got a regime back in power that openly allowed terrorist training camps and encouraged religious fanaticism.

So if western forces leave now, will Afghanistan slide back into Taliban rule? Would it have happened if western forces left 5 years ago? Will it happen whenever western forces leave in the future? I don't know the answer to any of those questions. But to me, the Taliban not gaining power again is a pretty big deal, both to American security and to the people of Afghanistan.
Of course money should be an issue. The United States is broke and spending 2 billion a week, it is a huge issue. The money should be spent on re-building the US not Afghanistan.
The increased presence in the region I am referring to isafter the troops went from Iraq to Afghanistan. Of course our presence the region would make more enemies. There are many people in the region that hate western influence. The longer we are there, the worse off it will be. We cannot force them to like us. I had an army field medic come to my foreign policy class. He said he gave out medicine to sick women and children in the region (Afghanistan). He said he would visit their homes weeks later and find them dead with the medicine untouched. They would rather die than be succumbed to western medicine and western hegemonic influence.
We have been there for 10 years. How much longer do we have to be there for? The hatred will grow the longer we are there. Chomsky and other scholars admit that our presence there fueled 9/11. So now we have much greater presence in the country. The sooner we leave the better. The longer we stay, the more hatred is directed towards western nations.
The war is killing countless civilians. The government is barely friendly to our governments. They hate our guts. How would you feel if a foreign military was in the US and told you how to live your life? How would you feel if they butchered civilians? I know I would be pretty angry.
Their is certainly no easy solution but remaining in the region is bankrupting us. It is killing our young men and women. It is killing countless Afghans, including civilians.

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01-04-2013, 07:36 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Jesus, is that what slip wrote? Yeah I sure express great pride about ethnic cleansing and widespread Middle Eastern war.

It would behoove you to not agree with slip on anything, he's a complete ass hole, a moron and a hyper-negative piece of garbage.
It is rude to resort to that kind of behaviour. He has the right to express his opinions and I respect him for doing so.
I visit this site to learn new material and argue issues that I think are important. In fact, we all have different views that we think are important. Insulting someone for displaying an opinion should not be condoned. I have my differing views on foreign policy, civil rights and economic policy that are quite different than yours and many others. However, believe or not but I gain a lot of knowledge from listening to people with different perspectives. Yesterday you brought forth information on the NDAA voting in Congress that I was not aware of. If I was not discussing the issue with you than I would not have discovered the factual information.
What I am trying to say is that you should not dismiss the opinions of others because you disagree.

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01-04-2013, 07:52 AM
  #98
Ilkka Sinisalo
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What I am trying to say is that you should not dismiss the opinions of others because you disagree.
I dismiss his opinions because he's a loon and because he constantly lies and makes **** up about what I believe. You don't do that, so I listen to you. I don't listen to him.

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01-04-2013, 08:04 AM
  #99
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Chomsky and other scholars admit that our presence there fueled 9/11. So now we have much greater presence in the country.
Our presence in the MIDDLE EAST had something to do with 9/11. We've never had much presence in Afghanistan before 9/11; certainly not in the years before the attacks.

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The sooner we leave the better. The longer we stay, the more hatred is directed towards western nations.
I do not necessarily believe this, because I don't see why, say, Afghani women would hate America when they have many more freedoms and rights than they did under the horrendous Taliban.

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The war is killing countless civilians.
Countless civilians were killed by the previous regime. The Taliban carried out ethnic cleansing campaigns, refused much-needed food supplies for starving Afghanis, massacred people in tribal areas in an attempt to consolidate control, and carried out ****, murder and sex trade campaigns against women. They are some of the worst people on earth. This is not to condone the bad things that have happened since late 2001, but jeez, the Taliban are just the worst stone-age garbage out there. **** them.

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How would you feel if a foreign military was in the US and told you how to live your life? How would you feel if they butchered civilians?
Well now that depends, and you're looking at this in a bubble. Are we talking about the modern USA? Well of course that would be awful, because the USA is a nation that largely respects its citizens and follows rule of modern law. If I were living in Afghanistan? Well that probably wouldn't be so bad. Granted, I'd be angry about the occasional drone strike gone wrong, or the PTSD soldier who goes on a rampage, but that's probably not a bad tradeoff for not living under the worst regime on earth.

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01-04-2013, 08:09 AM
  #100
Kadri43
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
I dismiss his opinions because he's a loon and because he constantly lies and makes **** up about what I believe. You don't do that, so I listen to you. I don't listen to him.
Ok that is your decision. I am actually consulting an old prof who is in contact with American criminologists who write policies for those detained in Gitmo. I am going to see if there is some truth to the so called black sites that Slip is referring to. I do not think that there are similar to what the Soviets used but I think there may be some truth beyond his obvious exaggeration.

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