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Are we ever going to close Guantanamo?

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01-04-2013, 06:57 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Kadri43 View Post
According to Dr. McClintock at pg 59, "At Abu Ghraib, I argue, US military intelligence, the CIA,
the contractors, and the interrogators photographed the prisoners as part of a performance
of bureaucratic rationalization: to produce the bodies of “the enemy” and make the prisoners legible as enemies, thereby putatively “legitimizing” the occupation".
Oh, I didn't say the CIA wasn't present (the CIA is now required to be present in most, if not all intel gathering operations from all branches of US government, to prevent interdepartmental turf wars). I say it wasn't a CIA-run prison. It was an army prison, just like Gitmo is a Marines prison.

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01-04-2013, 06:57 PM
  #127
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You know, since the whole point was to discuss Obama's agenda toward Gitmo (and someone barged in about the CIA Prison) I would have expected academic research to be focusing on this administration, rather than the last one we all agreed acted in a quite morally bankrupted way.
Do you really want me to look for people making fun of Slip for using the term Gulag? There is nothing wrong with admitting defeat, I acknowledge I was thoroughly wrong about something yesteday.
I mentioned it quite clearly that I have not found adequate research yet on the Obama administration. When I do, I will certainly post it.

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01-04-2013, 06:57 PM
  #128
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Also, last time I checked, Abu Grahib/Guantanamo were Armed Forces-run institutions. Not CIA-operated. I believe we WERE talking about these CIA-prison network operating renditions designed to interrogate suspected terrorist sympathizers/operatives, NOT the Army/Marines prisons designed to detain and interrogate insurgents.
I believe you're splitting hairs to cover your misinformed ass:

An estimated 50 prisons have been used to hold detainees in 28 countries, in addition to at least 25 more prisons in Afghanistan and 20 in Iraq. It is estimated that the U.S. has also used 17 ships as floating prisons since 2001, bringing the total estimated number of prisons operated by the U.S. and/or its allies to house alleged terrorist suspects since 2001 to more than 100.

In Iraq, Abu Ghraib was disclosed as also working as a black site, and was the center of an extensive prisoner abuse scandal.[42] Additionally, Camp Bucca (near Umm Qasr) and Camp Cropper (near the Baghdad International Airport) were reported.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_s..._CIA_prisons-8

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01-04-2013, 06:59 PM
  #129
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Oh, I didn't say the CIA wasn't present (the CIA is now required to be present in most, if not all intel gathering operations from all branches of US government, to prevent interdepartmental turf wars). I say it wasn't a CIA-run prison. It was an army prison, just like Gitmo is a Marines prison.
Oh ok I gotcha. Do you think the CIA runs non-combattents prisons? I am sure I could look for the information. I find these scholarly journals are somewhat reluctant to publish this sort of stuff. I am spending quite some time to look for good information.

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01-04-2013, 07:15 PM
  #130
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Oh ok I gotcha. Do you think the CIA runs non-combattents prisons? I am sure I could look for the information. I find these scholarly journals are somewhat reluctant to publish this sort of stuff. I am spending quite some time to look for good information.
I'll chose my words carefully here. I suspect the CIA runs, or is in large part in charge for the funding, administration and operation of these prisons. Obviously I don't expect to see "Prison Complex B" anywhere in the CIA's account books.

They most likely use phony subcontractors or foreign intelligence agencies. After all, the CIA wouldn't operate this blatantly on foreign soil without the contribution of at the very least tacit approval of the local IntOrgs.

Countries usually don't look kindly on foreign nations kidnapping their citizens. It's most likely some sort of convenient sharing of responsibilities; foreign intel agencies cannot kidnap their own citizens for desire of compliance with the law.

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01-04-2013, 07:39 PM
  #131
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I have looked at extensive articles and cannot find information on the Obama adminstration using torture methods. However, the adminstration is far from in the clear with respect to drone bombings. In the words of Dr. McCrisken at page 794, "Obama prefers a kill-not capture
policy". To illustrate, McCrisken states at page 793, "During the first year of the Obama administration there were 51 reported uses of unmanned Predator drones
against targets housing alleged terrorists in Pakistan alone, more than the 45 used during the entire presidency of George W. Bush. In 2010 this number more than
doubled to 118, and by the middle of May 2011 there had already been 27 such attacks in Pakistan. 38 Further counterterrorism drone attacks have also occurred
in Yemen, Somalia and Afghanistan".
There appears to be no REPORTEd uses of torture during the Obama Adminstration. Instead, the administration chooses to kill rather than capture.

McCRISKEN T. Ten years on: Obama's war on terrorism in rhetoric and practice. International Affairs [serial online]. July 2011;87(4):781-801. Available from: Academic Search Premier, Ipswich, MA. Accessed January 4, 2013.

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01-04-2013, 07:53 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I'll chose my words carefully here. I suspect the CIA runs, or is in large part in charge for the funding, administration and operation of these prisons. Obviously I don't expect to see "Prison Complex B" anywhere in the CIA's account books.

They most likely use phony subcontractors or foreign intelligence agencies. After all, the CIA wouldn't operate this blatantly on foreign soil without the contribution of at the very least tacit approval of the local IntOrgs.

Countries usually don't look kindly on foreign nations kidnapping their citizens. It's most likely some sort of convenient sharing of responsibilities; foreign intel agencies cannot kidnap their own citizens for desire of compliance with the law.
I remember you saying you were doing an MA in something like global politics. If I were you I would consider doing a thesis or at least a paper on the war on terror or guantanamo bay. Hell I think it would be fasinating to do a paper on the black sites although you might have a hard time finding information on something like that. I wonder if you could get it with a freedom of information or something. Anyway I think this stuff is awesome to learn about.

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01-04-2013, 08:10 PM
  #133
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I remember you saying you were doing an MA in something like global politics. If I were you I would consider doing a thesis or at least a paper on the war on terror or guantanamo bay. Hell I think it would be fasinating to do a paper on the black sites although you might have a hard time finding information on something like that. I wonder if you could get it with a freedom of information or something. Anyway I think this stuff is awesome to learn about.
I do not think I will have the leisure to do so. My paper's topic so far are Comparative Yellow Perils (Past Fear of Japan compared Current Fear of China), Bureaucratic Politics - The Exceptional Case of Nixon/Kissinger. Next semester's topics will be Rise of China, the State in Political Economy and Doing Political Research. I doubt I will get to speak about the prison system.

My dissertation will most likely be about the modelization of the Chinese Communist Party, expanding on Shih's factional model. I am more interested in studying entrenched institutions/bureaucratic politics models than critical geopolitics, TBH.

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01-04-2013, 08:12 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Kadri43 View Post
I have looked at extensive articles and cannot find information on the Obama adminstration using torture methods. However, the adminstration is far from in the clear with respect to drone bombings. In the words of Dr. McCrisken at page 794, "Obama prefers a kill-not capture
policy". To illustrate, McCrisken states at page 793, "During the first year of the Obama administration there were 51 reported uses of unmanned Predator drones
against targets housing alleged terrorists in Pakistan alone, more than the 45 used during the entire presidency of George W. Bush. In 2010 this number more than
doubled to 118, and by the middle of May 2011 there had already been 27 such attacks in Pakistan. 38 Further counterterrorism drone attacks have also occurred
in Yemen, Somalia and Afghanistan".
There appears to be no REPORTEd uses of torture during the Obama Adminstration. Instead, the administration chooses to kill rather than capture.

McCRISKEN T. Ten years on: Obama's war on terrorism in rhetoric and practice. International Affairs [serial online]. July 2011;87(4):781-801. Available from: Academic Search Premier, Ipswich, MA. Accessed January 4, 2013.
If I remember right, Obama has increased the number of drone strikes by an order of magnitude. They are much, much more prevalent than before.

But that is mixing issues, wouldn't you agree? Plus, drone strikes are done in insurgency warfare, whereas the rendition are done in a more civilian environment. Two completely different situations. Not making any moral statement about either, tho.

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01-04-2013, 08:22 PM
  #135
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I'll chose my words carefully here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Oh, I didn't say the CIA wasn't present (the CIA is now required to be present in most, if not all intel gathering operations from all branches of US government, to prevent interdepartmental turf wars). I say it wasn't a CIA-run prison. It was an army prison, just like Gitmo is a Marines prison.
The Guantanamo Bay detention camp is a controversial detainment and interrogation facility of the United States military located within Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, Cuba. The facility was established in 2002 by the Bush Administration to hold detainees believed to be connected with the war in Afghanistan and later Iraq. It is operated by the Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO) of the United States government in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, which is on the shore of Guantánamo Bay.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantan...detention_camp

Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO) is a U.S. military joint task force based at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, Guantánamo Bay, Cuba on the southeastern end of the island. JTF-GTMO falls under US Southern Command. Since January 2002 the command has operated the Guantanamo Bay detention camps Camp X-Ray and its successors Camp Delta, Camp V, and Camp Echo where there are detained prisoners captured in the war in Afghanistan after the September 11, 2001 attacks. The unit is currently under the command of Rear Admiral David B. Woods, who replaced Rear Admiral Jeffrey Harbeson in August 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_T...rce_Guantanamo

I didn't know the Marines had Admirals?

You learn something new everyday around here.

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01-04-2013, 08:24 PM
  #136
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I do not think I will have the leisure to do so. My paper's topic so far are Comparative Yellow Perils (Past Fear of Japan compared Current Fear of China), Bureaucratic Politics - The Exceptional Case of Nixon/Kissinger. Next semester's topics will be Rise of China, the State in Political Economy and Doing Political Research. I doubt I will get to speak about the prison system.

My dissertation will most likely be about the modelization of the Chinese Communist Party, expanding on Shih's factional model. I am more interested in studying entrenched institutions/bureaucratic politics models than critical geopolitics, TBH.
That does sound pretty cool although I am far from knowledgeable in the field. I obviously know who Nixon and Kissinger but what exactly is the paper on (the exceptional case)?

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01-04-2013, 08:30 PM
  #137
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If I remember right, Obama has increased the number of drone strikes by an order of magnitude. They are much, much more prevalent than before.

But that is mixing issues, wouldn't you agree? Plus, drone strikes are done in insurgency warfare, whereas the rendition are done in a more civilian environment. Two completely different situations. Not making any moral statement about either, tho.
I know it sure is a mixing of issues. I acknowledge that there has not been any documentation of torture during the Obama adminstration. I was not trying to change the subject, just pointing out something interesting. I did not know that Obama increased drone bombings to that extent.
Hasn't the war in Afghanistan been all about insurgency? If I recall correctly, insurgency is when the central power (western states atm) is being attacked by a non-governmental force. In the case of Afghanistan, the enemy is not in the open.

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01-04-2013, 08:33 PM
  #138
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The Guantanamo Bay detention camp is a controversial detainment and interrogation facility of the United States military located within Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, Cuba. The facility was established in 2002 by the Bush Administration to hold detainees believed to be connected with the war in Afghanistan and later Iraq. It is operated by the Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO) of the United States government in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, which is on the shore of Guantánamo Bay.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantan...detention_camp

Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO) is a U.S. military joint task force based at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, Guantánamo Bay, Cuba on the southeastern end of the island. JTF-GTMO falls under US Southern Command. Since January 2002 the command has operated the Guantanamo Bay detention camps Camp X-Ray and its successors Camp Delta, Camp V, and Camp Echo where there are detained prisoners captured in the war in Afghanistan after the September 11, 2001 attacks. The unit is currently under the command of Rear Admiral David B. Woods, who replaced Rear Admiral Jeffrey Harbeson in August 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_T...rce_Guantanamo

I didn't know the Marines had Admirals?

You learn something new everyday around here.
Silly me, I referred myself to McClintock's paper who stated that Gitmo prisoners were told they were now "Marines property".

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01-04-2013, 08:38 PM
  #139
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That does sound pretty cool although I am far from knowledgeable in the field. I obviously know who Nixon and Kissinger but what exactly is the paper on (the exceptional case)?
Nixon inherently mistrusted bureaucracy and though the departments had a way of acting only in their own interests by twisting presidential directives and retaining information.

To deal with it, he empowered Kissinger with responsibilities that allowed him to bypass most of the bureaucratic politics that would have twisted his policies. Pretty cool idea at the time, it made the Nixon administration extremely flexible, but it also meant he came across as extremely opportunist.

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I know it sure is a mixing of issues. I acknowledge that there has not been any documentation of torture during the Obama adminstration. I was not trying to change the subject, just pointing out something interesting. I did not know that Obama increased drone bombings to that extent.
Hasn't the war in Afghanistan been all about insurgency? If I recall correctly, insurgency is when the central power (western states atm) is being attacked by a non-governmental force. In the case of Afghanistan, the enemy is not in the open.
Damn. That is arguing semantics. I can't answer you 100% certainty here. But would you agree that drone strikes and renditions are two completely separated issues that occur in two completely different contexts? One is a context of open conflict, the other of subdued "cloak-and-dagger" back alley conflict.

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01-04-2013, 08:40 PM
  #140
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I know it sure is a mixing of issues. I acknowledge that there has not been any documentation of torture during the Obama adminstration. I was not trying to change the subject, just pointing out something interesting. I did not know that Obama increased drone bombings to that extent.
Hasn't the war in Afghanistan been all about insurgency? If I recall correctly, insurgency is when the central power (western states atm) is being attacked by a non-governmental force. In the case of Afghanistan, the enemy is not in the open.
How is it mixing issues? Aren't secret interrogation camps and drone strikes two tactics used in the "war on terror?" Don't both exist to serve the objectives of this war?

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01-04-2013, 08:46 PM
  #141
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Nixon inherently mistrusted bureaucracy and though the departments had a way of acting only in their own interests by twisting presidential directives and retaining information.

To deal with it, he empowered Kissinger with responsibilities that allowed him to bypass most of the bureaucratic politics that would have twisted his policies. Pretty cool idea at the time, it made the Nixon administration extremely flexible, but it also meant he came across as extremely opportunist.



Damn. That is arguing semantics. I can't answer you 100% certainty here. But would you agree that drone strikes and renditions are two completely separated issues that occur in two completely different contexts? One is a context of open conflict, the other of subdued "cloak-and-dagger" back alley conflict.
Yes I can agree with that. However, I always thought the whole afghan mission was basically insurgency since we took over the government pretty easily. However, places like Khandahar were heavily occupied by the Taliban until maybe 2006.


Last edited by Kadri43: 01-04-2013 at 08:47 PM. Reason: I will join this convo tomorrow. I have been at it all day.
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01-04-2013, 08:48 PM
  #142
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How is it mixing issues? Aren't secret interrogation camps and drone strikes two tactics used in the "war on terror?" Don't both exist to serve the objectives of this war?
Yes and no. You are right they are two strategies employed in the "war on terror", but the "war on terror" as per your definition is a fabrication that links together completely disjointed operations by the US government. For someone who is so critic of the US Administration, you are quick to use their own tactics for your own purposes.

Renditions and Drone Strikes are completely separated issues in both the real world, the US Government's operations and the US National security.

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01-04-2013, 08:49 PM
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Yes I can agree with that. However, I always thought the whole afghan mission was basically insurgency since we took over the government pretty easily. However, places like Khandahar were heavily occupied by the Taliban until maybe 2006.
It's irrelevant. It's still armed conflict, either through guerilla tactics or open warfare. It has nothing to do with the renditions.

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