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NHLPA starts another 'disclaimer' vote

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01-04-2013, 04:08 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
LOL
It's incredible how much this is played up on HFBOARDS>

It's only been in the last 7 years that the NHL owners started the dishonorable practice of rolling back salaries, and they only can do that because they beat the players to a pulp in the last CBA.

And that's why the NHLPA hates Bettman and hired Fehr.
If it is so dishonorable, why did the PA suggest that in 2005? It wasn't the NHL who brought it up.

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01-04-2013, 04:10 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Honestly people, do you believe everything the biggest pro-PA shill writes?

Most people here agree (myself included) that Bettman is a lot of negative things (cruel, evil, strong-willed, unflappable, emotionless, overly-lawyerish etc) but I ask you this, do you think Bettman is stupid? I don't like Fehr at all but one thing I know he's not stupid.

So ask yourself this; would Bettman EVER say something like that to players? Would the lawyer Bettman say something that stupid that would be certainly used against him in any court case?

First of all, Bettman saying that would compromise everything in a possible court case because that would squarely fly against the face of NHL claiming they are negotiating in good faith.

Secondly, why on earth would Bettman say that in the first place? What good would that do? Why should he give ammo to players?

Absolutely zero chance of Bettman saying that. Zero.

Someone should finally call out Brooks for all the BS.
I have no idea why him saying this would have any evidentiary bearing relevant to anything in a court case. I also have no idea why it would tend to piss off players. So some big money teams are having sticker regret. Why does that have anything to do with these negotiations? Players are still entitled to negotiate the best deal they can get and hire agents to try and get the most money out of these supposedly-regretful teams that they can. Who cares?

I for one don't even think it's a dumb thing to say. It'd be like Don Fehr saying "some of my clients regret that they signed undervalued deals and want to go back for more next time." Would that surprise or piss off anyone?

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01-04-2013, 04:12 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
First offer was a carbon copy of the NBA's first offer last year.
It's a good thing the NHL is a carbon copy of the NBA

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01-04-2013, 04:13 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
This is just silliness. The league made 4 consecutive offers in September and October without any counterproposal by the PA. The PA refused, even, to negotiate the core economic issues over a 30 day period during that time. The league may say "this is our only offer today, take it or leave it," but the league has done plenty of moving between meetings. You don't judge a party's willingness to negotiate based on just what they do within any one single meeting.
Right they made more offers each time after they had made a proposal of "this is our final offer" things only get worse from here. They are still doing so today but it still hasnt brought us to a solution. There is no reason to believe that if the players had made moves during that time the lockout would be any closer to being resolved. The league continues to make ultimatums rather than sit down and negotiate and then walk away in a huff when the players dont completely capitulate to their demands.

I think the suggestion they could have gotten a better deal earlier is simply not backed up by reality.

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01-04-2013, 04:15 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by IME View Post
It's a good thing the NHL is a carbon copy of the NBA
I don't know where you're going with that, but if anything, a good case can be made that the NHL's more restricted revenue stream and similar fixed costs suggests that the NHL should have offered its players less. I made a thread a little while back asking the pro-PA crowd to tell me what the differences are that imply that NHL players should get more than their brethren in other sports, and I didn't count one single serious reply. If you can tell me what the difference is between the NHL and the NBA that implies that hockey players should get more money, kudos to you.

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01-04-2013, 04:16 PM
  #181
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The longer the lockout will last, better will be the deal Fehr will get for the players.

Owners are starting to panick badly.

Bettman's ego and unwise tactics are firing back.

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01-04-2013, 04:18 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
Right they made more offers each time after they had made a proposal of "this is our final offer" things only get worse from here. They are still doing so today but it still hasnt brought us to a solution. There is no reason to believe that if the players had made moves during that time the lockout would be any closer to being resolved. The league continues to make ultimatums rather than sit down and negotiate and then walk away in a huff when the players dont completely capitulate to their demands.

I think the suggestion they could have gotten a better deal earlier is simply not backed up by reality.
In what sense have any of the league's offers been ultimatums? They have improved their offers like clockwork every ****ing two weeks since August. Is it all about the magic words? Do you ignore the entire stream of actual offers and counteroffers and just key in on it when Don Fehr tells you they're making "ultimatums"? Because I haven't counted anything that they haven't willingly negotiated and changed their position on.

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01-04-2013, 04:19 PM
  #183
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Not a lot new, but here is Pagnotta's latest: http://www.thefourthperiod.com/colum.../dp130104.html

Every journalist seems amazed at the lunacy that this negotiation has been. That tells a lot about both sides. I hope they just come to their senses and find a middle ground on the outstanding issues. Sounds like there are less than five or so to agree upon. There is a deal there if they (both sides) want it.

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01-04-2013, 04:20 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
The longer the lockout will last, better will be the deal Fehr will get for the players.

Owners are starting to panick badly.

Bettman's ego and unwise tactics are firing back.
Silliness. The best offer the players ever saw or ever will see was on October 15th. Since that time, the players have blown $750M in salary in order to fight for $300M in concessions. They dig their graves deeper by the day.

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01-04-2013, 04:21 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
The longer the lockout will last, better will be the deal Fehr will get for the players.

Owners are starting to panick badly.

Bettman's ego and unwise tactics are firing back.
How exactly does it get better for the players if the season gets cancelled? Serious question.

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01-04-2013, 04:24 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I have no idea why him saying this would have any evidentiary bearing relevant to anything in a court case.
Because NHL is saying the business model is unsustainable. If they say to players that some GMs made bad moves and want them back, that would undermine their whole case. Players get a fixed % of the revenues, they get that no matter what. NHL can't go around telling players that they want to nix some of the bad deals GMs made because it wouldn't affect the money players are getting overall. Very simple.

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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I also have no idea why it would tend to piss off players. So some big money teams are having sticker regret. Why does that have anything to do with these negotiations? Players are still entitled to negotiate the best deal they can get and hire agents to try and get the most money out of these supposedly-regretful teams that they can. Who cares?
Why would it piss off the players?? Are you serious? NHL has been telling that players get too much money, if Bettman says GMs want to backtrack on some of the bad contracts, it wouldn't be only about players getting too much money collectively, it would be about NHL trying to correct stupid decisions made by GMs. Don't you see the difference?

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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I for one don't even think it's a dumb thing to say. It'd be like Don Fehr saying "some of my clients regret that they signed undervalued deals and want to go back for more next time." Would that surprise or piss off anyone?
Fehr would never say something like that. Never.

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01-04-2013, 04:26 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Silliness. The best offer the players ever saw or ever will see was on October 15th. Since that time, the players have blown $750M in salary in order to fight for $300M in concessions. They dig their graves deeper by the day.
I am not saying that the players did not lose a lot. I am just saying Fehr will try to recover as much as possible from these losses. Owners have lost a lot too.

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01-04-2013, 04:27 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
How exactly does it get better for the players if the season gets cancelled? Serious question.
Of course, a shortened season must be played. But Fehr will wait until next Wednesday to sign anything.

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01-04-2013, 04:28 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
Right they made more offers each time after they had made a proposal of "this is our final offer" things only get worse from here.
Has the NHL ever actually said this is our final offer? Honest question, the league has only said that the current offer will be off the table if NHLPA doesn't agree. But final offer?

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01-04-2013, 04:28 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Because NHL is saying the business model is unsustainable. If they say to players that some GMs made bad moves and want them back, that would undermine their whole case. Players get a fixed % of the revenues, they get that no matter what. NHL can't go around telling players that they want to nix some of the bad deals GMs made because it wouldn't affect the money players are getting overall. Very simple.

Why would it piss off the players?? Are you serious? NHL has been telling that players get too much money, if Bettman says GMs want to backtrack on some of the bad contracts, it wouldn't be only about players getting too much money collectively, it would be about NHL trying to correct stupid decisions made by GMs. Don't you see the difference?
So you're saying that by stating that some GMs have sticker regret about their individual decisions that it undermines the argument that the sport itself has fiscal problems. These are not mutually exclusive ideas. Both can easily be true, and either one is probably more likely to be true if the other is.

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01-04-2013, 04:29 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Honestly people, do you believe everything the biggest pro-PA shill writes?

Most people here agree (myself included) that Bettman is a lot of negative things (cruel, evil, strong-willed, unflappable, emotionless, overly-lawyerish etc) but I ask you this, do you think Bettman is stupid? I don't like Fehr at all but one thing I know he's not stupid.

So ask yourself this; would Bettman EVER say something like that to players? Would the lawyer Bettman say something that stupid that would be certainly used against him in any court case?

First of all, Bettman saying that would compromise everything in a possible court case because that would squarely fly against the face of NHL claiming they are negotiating in good faith.

Secondly, why on earth would Bettman say that in the first place? What good would that do? Why should he give ammo to players?

Absolutely zero chance of Bettman saying that. Zero.

Someone should finally call out Brooks for all the BS.
Actually, the way this has gone I believe the man is capable of saying anything to get closer to his end game, whatever the hell that is. In any case, it doesn't matter much cause he's toast within the year no matter which way this fiasco ends up. There's just no way he can continue to "lead" this sad sack of an excuse for a league given the enmity between him/ his employers and their employees.

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01-04-2013, 04:31 PM
  #192
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In what sense have any of the league's offers been ultimatums? They have improved their offers like clockwork every ****ing two weeks since August. Is it all about the magic words? Do you ignore the entire stream of actual offers and counteroffers and just key in on it when Don Fehr tells you they're making "ultimatums"? Because I haven't counted anything that they haven't willingly negotiated and changed their position on.
In the sense that they've stated that this is the best offer we are giving it only gets worse from here, if you dont take this package now it's all off the table forever.

The point is they are only moving on anything piece by piece slowly over time as the days go by. They wouldnt have given anything earlier unless the union forced them to. This is a process and it has taken this long because that is how long it's taking for the league to move off of their positions as much as it's because the union has refused to move. You can try and place the majority of the blame on the union for not caving faster but it's just as much the fault of the owners blowing up when the discussions havent gone their way and storming out unwilling to talk.

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01-04-2013, 04:31 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
It takes two to tango and the league wasnt negotiating in September or October, they were and still are for the most part giving out take it or leave it offers and announcing which hills they are willing to die on. You cant claim the players should have just taken the owners offer in October and then say they should have negotiated on points that werent up for negotiation.

As for cancelling the season and disclaiming interest, that doesnt get rid of Fehr just changes his title. He then just becomes a lawyer representating the trade association or whatever the players reform themselves as, or even as head counsel for their anti-trust law suit.
I wasn't saying they should have taken the first offer, I was saying they should have started negotiating immediately and they should have been willing to accept less than they are holding out for now. A deal could have been made that would have netted them more than they are going to get when this was all over and they've lost between $800 million and $1.6 billion is salaries, depending upon whether we lose half or all of the season.

Once they become an association, the NHLPA has no authority to negotiate on behalf of the players. And Don Fehr is not a litigator; he would not be lead counsel in an anti trust suit against the NHL.

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01-04-2013, 04:32 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Owners have lost a lot too.
Based on what limited information we have, the owners haven't lost anything. As a group, owners lost a pro-rated share of $250M annual profit (Forbes' estimate of total NHL net profit) in order to move from 50%+$600M (PA's October offer) to 50%+$300M (current offer). Owners can say they made $150M+ that way. That's the power of having one side make ten times what the other side makes per year.

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01-04-2013, 04:33 PM
  #195
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Of course, a shortened season must be played. But Fehr will wait until next Wednesday to sign anything.
I think that is likely true of both sides, should they get there. I can agree with that.

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01-04-2013, 04:34 PM
  #196
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Actually, the way this has gone I believe the man is capable of saying anything to get closer to his end game, whatever the hell that is. In any case, it doesn't matter much cause he's toast within the year no matter which way this fiasco ends up. There's just no way he can continue to "lead" this sad sack of an excuse for a league given the enmity between him/ his employers and their employees.
Well given the owners are the ones who make that call and the owners have supported him at every step of his tenure as commissioner, I sincerely doubt you're correct on that one. Though, if I were Bettman, I'd resign after this is resolved and move on to something else and leave this headache to someone much younger. I'm sure there's another young Proskauer lawyer available to step into his shoes...

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01-04-2013, 04:36 PM
  #197
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In the sense that they've stated that this is the best offer we are giving it only gets worse from here, if you dont take this package now it's all off the table forever.

The point is they are only moving on anything piece by piece slowly over time as the days go by. They wouldnt have given anything earlier unless the union forced them to. This is a process and it has taken this long because that is how long it's taking for the league to move off of their positions as much as it's because the union has refused to move. You can try and place the majority of the blame on the union for not caving faster but it's just as much the fault of the owners blowing up when the discussions havent gone their way and storming out unwilling to talk.
Okay, so you're saying the league has used the wrong magic words. Do you stop haggling with a car salesman when he tells you "I think this is the best price I can do"? Because you can throw around casual slander like "stormed out" and "unwilling to talk" and "ultimatum," but if the clear series of offers and counteroffers contradicts the way you're trying to characterize the negotiations, all your florid descriptions of how people have acted doesn't mean much.

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01-04-2013, 04:38 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
I am not saying that the players did not lose a lot. I am just saying Fehr will try to recover as much as possible from these losses. Owners have lost a lot too.
How exactly is he going to do that? By holding out even longer and costing the players even more in lost salary? The players are never going to recover what they lost. In one month of lost playing time they lose more than what they are holding out for in additional salary cap for an entire year.

Fehr may be a smart labor negotiator, but it appears that somebody might have stolen his calculator this past summer.

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01-04-2013, 04:39 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Honestly people, do you believe everything the biggest pro-PA shill writes?

Most people here agree (myself included) that Bettman is a lot of negative things (cruel, evil, strong-willed, unflappable, emotionless, overly-lawyerish etc) but I ask you this, do you think Bettman is stupid? I don't like Fehr at all but one thing I know he's not stupid.

So ask yourself this; would Bettman EVER say something like that to players? Would the lawyer Bettman say something that stupid that would be certainly used against him in any court case?

First of all, Bettman saying that would compromise everything in a possible court case because that would squarely fly against the face of NHL claiming they are negotiating in good faith.

Secondly, why on earth would Bettman say that in the first place? What good would that do? Why should he give ammo to players?

Absolutely zero chance of Bettman saying that. Zero.

Someone should finally call out Brooks for all the BS.
I can see Bettman saying it, in the context of the DOI/Decert. If he said it, it's probably to show the PA the the owners are not afraid of, and some even welcome the DOI/Decert.

So yeah, I can see him saying it, in a way he's calling Fehr's bluff.

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01-04-2013, 04:40 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
So you're saying that by stating that some GMs have sticker regret about their individual decisions that it undermines the argument that the sport itself has fiscal problems. These are not mutually exclusive ideas. Both can easily be true, and either one is probably more likely to be true if the other is.
Yes, those are mutually exclusive from NHL's point of view.

Everytime a GM gives a player a grossly overpaid contract, the "extra" money comes out of the pockets of other players because the players get fixed % of the revenues. It doesn't make the league itself any healthier/less healthy.

NHL is claiming that players get too much of the revenues collectively, they don't care about individual contracts (except for the very long, heavily front-loaded contracts which circumvent the cap rules)

NHLPA can argue in the court that by Bettman's alleged admission, NHL's lock-out is only about trying to fix the mistakes of some stupid GMs instead of NHL's claim it's trying to improve the health of overall team economics.

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