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Define top 6 forward

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Old
01-03-2013, 09:04 PM
  #1
SenateReform
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Define top 6 forward

What do you think qualifies a player to be considered a top 6 forward? It seems like most people on these boards expect a player to put up more than 50 points a season to be considered a "legit" top 6 guy which I don't feel is realistic.

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01-03-2013, 09:06 PM
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Kane One
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They aren't top 6 if they can't hit 50 points..

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01-03-2013, 09:09 PM
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Benny FTW
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Its litterally impossible for every top 6 forward to get 50+ pts in this low scoring NHL.

Its based on on-ice performance and points.

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01-03-2013, 09:09 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
They aren't top 6 if they can't hit 50 points..
Only 95 players scored 50 or more last year. That averages to about 3.2 players per team. Something doesn't add up.

Players who didn't hit 50 points last season include:
Mike Richards
Derek Roy
Tuomo Ruutu
Brandon Dubinsky
Matt Read

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01-03-2013, 09:13 PM
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3rdlineglory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
They aren't top 6 if they can't hit 50 points..
I always considered 40 points as the minimum.

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01-03-2013, 09:13 PM
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Darth Yoda
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I see that it was about 0.47 points per game for the 180th forward in the league last season, removing some that played very fiew games.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 01-04-2013 at 01:43 PM.
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01-03-2013, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
They aren't top 6 if they can't hit 50 points..
Disagree. I believe a top-6 forward is a forward that can score points and be effective on the team, they don't have to score 50 points to be effective.

A top-6 forward can get you points and lead the team is some way, a top-6 forward is able to play top line minutes if they are needed, and most are decent on defense.

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01-03-2013, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
Only 95 players scored 50 or more last year. That averages to about 3.2 players per team. Something doesn't add up.

Players who didn't hit 50 points last season include:
Mike Richards
Derek Roy
Tuomo Ruutu
Brandon Dubinsky
Matt Read
Aside from Read, all of those players have done it before. Just because injuries or down seasons happen doesn't mean they're not top six players anymore.

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01-03-2013, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MillarWithASave View Post
Disagree. I believe a top-6 forward is a forward that can score points and be effective on the team, they don't have to score 50 points to be effective.

A top-6 forward can get you points and lead the team is some way, a top-6 forward is able to play top line minutes if they are needed, and most are decent on defense.
Agreed. The LA Kings only had 4 players last year who scored or were on pace for 50 points. It seems kind of silly to argue that the cup champions were lacking two top 6 forwards because of point totals.

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01-03-2013, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdlineglory View Post
Aside from Read, all of those players have done it before. Just because injuries or down seasons happen doesn't mean they're not top six players anymore.
That wasn't his point though, his point was that some top-6 guys don't get 50+ points, those guys are all top-6 guys.

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01-03-2013, 09:21 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
Only 95 players scored 50 or more last year. That averages to about 3.2 players per team. Something doesn't add up.

Players who didn't hit 50 points last season include:
Mike Richards
Derek Roy
Tuomo Ruutu
Brandon Dubinsky
Matt Read
I think "can't" hit 50 points constitutes never hitting 50 points and not having the ability to.

All of those guys aside from Read have hit 50 points, can hit 50 points, and will hit 50 points again. That's a top 6 forward.

Therefore I think 50 is the right cutoff point. That doesn't mean you have to get 50 every year but you should have it on your resume and should be able to do it going forward.

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01-03-2013, 09:25 PM
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For me a top6 forward is a forward that can be expected to play on the top2 lines regularly and be effective in that role.

It doesn't mean that they do play on a top2 line (example Staal with Pittsburgh) or that a player occasionally on a top2 line is really a top6 player (example Moen getting ice time with Plekanec in Montreal because we had terrible depth and stupid coaches). Its just a matter of common sense, you need to ask yourself the question whether you think this player should get top6 icetime or not on a decent NHL team.

The most obvious answers are often the correct ones imho..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead
Therefore I think 50 is the right cutoff point. That doesn't mean you have to get 50 every year but you should have it on your resume and should be able to do it going forward.
Its just an arbitrary line you fix. Lets say we have a player that scores about 20 to 25g every year, gets close to 20 assists but never hits 50pts. He does however provide good, gritty two way play and is a fixture on a team's second line. This guy is definitely a top6 player in role and in effect regardless of points.

It goes beyond stats. Second liners rarely score 50pts yet they are on a team's top6 - I would say 50pts is a first liner or good second liner whereas top6 includes guys that should never get regular first line ice time but are more than third liners.


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 01-03-2013 at 09:31 PM.
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01-03-2013, 09:28 PM
  #13
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20 goals is nice too. I think 40 points is acceptable if 20 of them are goals.

So I would the ability to gain 50 points and/or 20 goals.

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01-03-2013, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
20 goals is nice too. I think 40 points is acceptable if 20 of them are goals.

So I would the ability to gain 50 points and/or 20 goals.
I don't think you can rely only on stats to quantify someone as a top 6 forward. If they play in the top 6 consistently and contribute to the team's ability to win then they are in my mind a top 6 forward.

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01-03-2013, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MillarWithASave View Post
That wasn't his point though, his point was that some top-6 guys don't get 50+ points, those guys are all top-6 guys.
All of those guys are still capable of putting up 50 points.

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01-03-2013, 09:44 PM
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If your basing it off points only...

1st liner: 60+ points

2nd liner: 40+ points

3rd liner: 20+ points

...is how I see it.

In my book, if you're consitantly producing at a 0.5 PPG rate you're good enough (again, production-wise) to play a top six role.


Last edited by Elvs: 01-03-2013 at 09:58 PM.
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01-03-2013, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
I don't think you can rely only on stats to quantify someone as a top 6 forward. If they play in the top 6 consistently and contribute to the team's ability to win then they are in my mind a top 6 forward.
I think it's the opposite. I don't think you can use playing in the top 6 to quantify someone as a top 6 forward.

It's a measure of skill. Line combinations go beyond skill. For example we used to see Ruslan Fedotenko play a very effective game in Pittsburgh's top 6 with Crosby and Malkin.

But based on his skill level and the numbers he's put up over his career I would say he's not a top 6 forward, even though he can play there if it fits the chemistry.

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01-03-2013, 09:56 PM
  #18
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40+ points over 82 games.

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01-03-2013, 09:58 PM
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it can be a grinder with a tad of skill who can link up with two other gifted offensive players. Brouwer when he was with Toews and Kane for example. They were dominant at times.

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01-03-2013, 09:58 PM
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I don't like the term "Top 6 forward" just like I don't like "Top 4 defenseman". It's either a "Top 3 forward" or a "second line forward", a "Top 2 defenseman" or a "second pairing defenseman". Big difference between the two sets.

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01-03-2013, 09:58 PM
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Some could say that theres 30 teams * 6 players for 180 top 6 players, but I would say you're not a top 6 unless you are (or would be) a top 6 on a playoff team.

Essentially, 16 teams * 6 players for 96 players. (I'm not saying any top 6 on a playoff team is a true top 6, or anyone not on a playoff team isn't.)


So..

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
Only 95 players scored 50 or more last year. That averages to about 3.2 players per team. Something doesn't add up.
Sounds about right.

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01-03-2013, 10:06 PM
  #22
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Second line forward definition depends on the depth in the NHL, really. In recent years, the margin between 2nd and 3rd line players has overlapped on many teams.

It can technically be quite a range of player. It depends on the other components of the line.

Having said that, in today's NHL, a second line forward should be someone who would be capable of hitting 40-60 pts. If they are not putting up the offensive numbers, they should be capable of controlling the offensive zone, making big hits, creating turnovers, and exceptional puck management.

Essentially, someone who can change the tempo of a game and/or provide solid offensive support.

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01-03-2013, 10:08 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clamshells View Post
Some could say that theres 30 teams * 6 players for 180 top 6 players, but I would say you're not a top 6 unless you are (or would be) a top 6 on a playoff team.

Essentially, 16 teams * 6 players for 96 players. (I'm not saying any top 6 on a playoff team is a true top 6, or anyone not on a playoff team isn't.)


So..



Sounds about right.
You make a good argument sir

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01-03-2013, 10:19 PM
  #24
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Let's look at the three teams who finished with a goals for average above three goals per game. Those teams were Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Boston. Here are their top six forwards:

*Pittsburgh:
Malkin (109)
Neal (81)
Kunitz (61)
Dupuis (59)
Staal (50)
Sullivan (48)
*Crosby only appeared in 22 games, scoring 37 points.

Philadelphia:
Giroux (93)
Hartnell (67)
Jagr (54)
Simmonds (49)
Voracek (49)
Briere (49)

Boston:
Seguin (67)
Bergeron (64)
Krejci (62)
Lucic (61)
Marchand (55)
Peverley (42)

That's on the top three goal scoring teams in the NHL. Detroit, one of the top 10 best offensive teams in the league, had five players with 50 or more points (Zetterberg with 69, Datsyuk 67, Filppula 66, Franzen 56, Hudler 50). The sixth player in their top six was Bertuzzi with 38 points.

Then look at Chicago's top six. Their top four had Hossa with 77 points, Sharp 69, Kane 66, and Toews 57 (in 59 games). The last two in their top six were Stalberg with 43 and Bolland with 37.

Teams today don't have the crazy amount of scoring depth we used to see from teams in the 80s, 90s and 00s, before the existence of the salary cap. It's difficult to retain so many high scorers under one roof. Playing time becomes an issue and it is just tougher in general to get on the scoreboard today than it was in previous years.

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01-03-2013, 10:23 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clamshells View Post
Some could say that theres 30 teams * 6 players for 180 top 6 players, but I would say you're not a top 6 unless you are (or would be) a top 6 on a playoff team.

Essentially, 16 teams * 6 players for 96 players. (I'm not saying any top 6 on a playoff team is a true top 6, or anyone not on a playoff team isn't.)


So..



Sounds about right.
You can't try to apply a basic mathematical formula to determine something like this. Hockey doesn't work that way.

A Top 6 forward can play whatever role is assigned of him on either the 1st or 2nd line. If a player on the first line screens the net, intimidates players physically, clears up space for the other forwards, fore-checks and digs for pucks in the corners but only puts up 35 points, they're still a Top 6 forward if they can do everything I listed effectively.

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