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NHL Lockout Discussion XLIV: The Night and the Silent Water

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Old
01-04-2013, 07:44 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Chimera Doesn't Trust Bettman

“I’m a little leery,” Capitals winger Jason Chimera said Thursday following a player-organized workout in Arlington. The league “knew that deadline [to disclaim interest] was coming, so maybe they were bargaining in good faith up until that moment and maybe they’re going to shut it down today. I don’t dislike anybody, but I don’t trust Gary Bettman right now and what his motive is. He’s a nice man, I’ve met him numerous times, but I don’t trust what’s happened so far.
Don't see why Chimera think he needs to "trust" Bettman. Bettman is negotiating for the benefit of the owners. If the owners say that they don't trust Bettman, then that's one thing. But a player should not trust or distrust Bettman. Fehr is the guy that the player laid their "trust" in as Fehr negotiates for the good of players

Its like saying...I don't trust the other guy's lawyer to look out for my benefit...

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01-04-2013, 07:47 AM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
"The union objected to the league’s attempt in its most recent proposal to remove or alter major penalties on teams that hide or do not report their full, annual Hockey Related Revenue (HRR). The NHL withdrew its proposed change after hearing the players’ objections in a small-group afternoon meeting, but the union viewed the NHL’s attempt at changing the HRR language as sneaky."

Hmm, the union doesn't like that the league wants to remove or change penalties for it's teams committing fraud against the players. Nah, the players should just get over it as it was just a misunderstanding.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...#ixzz2H0sLh6Pw
No they have every right and should be concerned with changes to the penalties for hiding HRR. What they shouldn't do is ***** and moan about it one week after recieving the document that outlined these changes.

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Old
01-04-2013, 07:56 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Kingler View Post
Don't see why Chimera think he needs to "trust" Bettman. Bettman is negotiating for the benefit of the owners. If the owners say that they don't trust Bettman, then that's one thing. But a player should not trust or distrust Bettman. Fehr is the guy that the player laid their "trust" in as Fehr negotiates for the good of players

Its like saying...I don't trust the other guy's lawyer to look out for my benefit...
This is possibly the best post in the last 5+ Lockout Discussion threads.

You put your trust in the guys you've hired to fight for your rights. The only, and I mean the ONLY thing you should be trusting guys on the other side of the table in is honoring the terms of the CBA that your guys are negotiating for you. You need to trust that YOUR guys get the best deal for YOU.

Players dumping on Bettman are misdirecting their emotions completely. Also: if you're going to criticize anyone, criticize your team's owner. Have some balls and go after the right guy. They're the ones who locked you out, not Gary Bettman. Blaming Bettman just proves to me why Gary has been an effective commissioner in his tenure: he's managed somehow to take the blame that should have been directed at the Owners for over 15 years.

Gary Bettman: the world's best "Professional Scapegoat"?

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Old
01-04-2013, 07:56 AM
  #279
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I've been on the owners side the entire time, but i'm pretty much at the point where, the owners should accept what the players are offering. They got most of what they wanted.


The part that worries me is the NHLPA isn't really where we think they are in terms of their offer. I think its a very real possibility that things like Escrow not being capped, etc is all a bunch of bull ****.

Hope I'm wrong, Fehr doesn't want this to end... hopefully the players can continue to push for a deal, which I really believe is happening behind the scenes, otherwise I dont think this situation would be even close to being resolved. Fehr is just waiting for the NHL to do something stupid (like the HRR thing), so he can blow it up into a much bigger deal than it is; get the players riled up, so he can have his day in court.

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Old
01-04-2013, 07:58 AM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
This is possibly the best post in the last 5+ Lockout Discussion threads.

You put your trust in the guys you've hired to fight for your rights. The only, and I mean the ONLY thing you should be trusting guys on the other side of the table in is honoring the terms of the CBA that your guys are negotiating for you. You need to trust that YOUR guys get the best deal for YOU.

Players dumping on Bettman are misdirecting their emotions completely. Also: if you're going to criticize anyone, criticize your team's owner. Have some balls and go after the right guy. They're the ones who locked you out, not Gary Bettman. Blaming Bettman just proves to me why Gary has been an effective commissioner in his tenure: he's managed somehow to take the blame that should have been directed at the Owners for over 15 years.

Gary Bettman: the world's best "Professional Scapegoat"?
If you don't have some sense of trust in the other side, you'll never get a deal.

Stop blaming Bettman and actually look into the negotiations.

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01-04-2013, 08:01 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
"The union objected to the league’s attempt in its most recent proposal to remove or alter major penalties on teams that hide or do not report their full, annual Hockey Related Revenue (HRR). The NHL withdrew its proposed change after hearing the players’ objections in a small-group afternoon meeting, but the union viewed the NHL’s attempt at changing the HRR language as sneaky."

Hmm, the union doesn't like that the league wants to remove or change penalties for it's teams committing fraud against the players. Nah, the players should just get over it as it was just a misunderstanding.
So the owners prop up/subsidize, what is it 6-11 franchises that make no money every year (Nashville, Columbus, Dallas, Phoenix, Islanders, Florida, Hurricanes, Blues) almost every year? They then have the nerve to try to hide some money away? How dare they.

http://spectorshockey.net/blog/an-ov...ms-conclusion/

How about the league just folds 4 or 5 those teams and the union losses about 200 jobs?

I really have a hard time being on the players side when I can see this logic and the players can't.

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:04 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by RC24 View Post
So the owners prop up/subsidize, what is it 6-8 franchises that make no money every year (Nashville, Columbus, Dallas, Phoenix, Islanders, Florida, Hurricanes, Blues) almost every year? They then have the nerve to try to hide some money away? How dare they.

How about the league just folds 4 or 5 those teams and the union losses about 200 jobs?

I really have a hard time being on the players side when I can see this logic and the players can't.
The Islanders should start making money once they move to Brooklyn in my opinion.

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:05 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
So, because he doesn't trust Bettman and the owners, it means he is simply drinking Fehr's Kool-Aid? Got it.

For years we all heard Bettman yap about how well the league was doing, how the cap and "partnership" with the players has been great for all teams, how the league is thriving. All of a sudden, CBA is up and things are in dire straits. But right, it is the players who are drinking Kool-aid for not trusting what Bettman has to say. His job is to make as much money for the owners as possible and the trend has been to do so by taking from the players. Shouldn't take a nuclear physicist to figure out why the players don't trust the man.

Oh wait, should he just keep his mouth shut? I forgot, freedom of speech only exists when you are saying something considered PC, nowadays.
Read from yesterday to appreciate his quotes. He essentially says the NHLPA is releasing limited details. He's got no choice but to drink Kool Aid.

Chimera Forced to Drink Kool Aid


“From our standpoint we don’t really know much,” Chimera said.

And hey.........I never, ever said he should keeps his mouth shut. Show me where I said Jason Chimera should shut up?

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:06 AM
  #284
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I'm honestly not sure why we're even talking about this.

Ok, so there was a kerfuffle over this proposed change to an article. The players think the NHL was being sneaky, the NHL denies it. Ok, whatever. Moving on. The article was changed back to its original wording. Issue resolved. Right?


Right?


What is the deal here? What do the players expect to happen at this juncture?

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:10 AM
  #285
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I am sure they would. But I don't see Fehr losing if this thing gets canceled.

The owners have already won. They won it from day 1. Now its just a matter of how big the win will be.

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:11 AM
  #286
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@JKTHN: Hearing that prior to yesterday's freeze, sides had agreed to firm 8-year CBA, no opt outs.

https://twitter.com/jkthn/status/287197730076512256

@JKTHN: Other persistent rumors: PA feels season of fewer than 48 G still in play (42?). And that PA may still try to get slice of future exp. fees.

https://twitter.com/jkthn/status/287198888501334019

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:12 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post

...

What is the deal here? What do the players expect to happen at this juncture?
They expect to be patted on the head, congratulated in front of their peers and a gold star to be stuck next to their names on a wall.

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:13 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
@JKTHN: Hearing that prior to yesterday's freeze, sides had agreed to firm 8-year CBA, no opt outs.

https://twitter.com/jkthn/status/287197730076512256

@JKTHN: Other persistent rumors: PA feels season of fewer than 48 G still in play (42?). And that PA may still try to get slice of future exp. fees.

https://twitter.com/jkthn/status/287198888501334019
So, players want to risk this season for a few more dollars. Great.

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:14 AM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
"The union objected to the league’s attempt in its most recent proposal to remove or alter major penalties on teams that hide or do not report their full, annual Hockey Related Revenue (HRR). The NHL withdrew its proposed change after hearing the players’ objections in a small-group afternoon meeting, but the union viewed the NHL’s attempt at changing the HRR language as sneaky."

Hmm, the union doesn't like that the league wants to remove or change penalties for it's teams committing fraud against the players. Nah, the players should just get over it as it was just a misunderstanding.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...#ixzz2H0sLh6Pw
I would be miffed if the league did this as well. However, if the league did in fact have this change in their original proposal, then the player's anger at it over a week after it was proposed is "irrational" (its only in quotes because its perfectly rational if the end goal is not to strike a deal asap).

Lebrun:

Quote:
OK, it turns out the players and their leader, Don Fehr, were in foul mood after they discovered the league might have tried to pull as fast one on HRR language in last week's offer. Did I say last week’s offer? Yes, I did. Did it really take a week for the union’s lawyers to find the HRR treachery?
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ssing-to-worse

Players are now acting that Bettman tried to pull a fast one over them after the desertification deadline went (or worse, they were actually told this was the case).

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:16 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'm honestly not sure why we're even talking about this.

Ok, so there was a kerfuffle over this proposed change to an article. The players think the NHL was being sneaky, the NHL denies it. Ok, whatever. Moving on. The article was changed back to its original wording. Issue resolved. Right?


Right?


What is the deal here? What do the players expect to happen at this juncture?
I'm not sure myself, but I do think this: this is the first lockout where twitter and other "instant" social media has had such a definitive grip on both sides "getting their story out" to gain traction in the PR war (yes we had internet last lockout, but there wasn't the "instant twitter" type of structure there is now"). I think this is a symptom of that-something that may consider "small", yet any grip it seems to win the war in public opinion. And as a result we've had an incredibly surreal statements and actions coming out to the public, and the public has taken their sides, so it's all about one side or the other "winning" all the fights-and this IMO is just another result of the 'instant' media trying to stir up things-and both sides of guilty of it.

So what's the "big deal"? In the grand scheme of things, probably not a lot, but we have to apparently be told it is a big deal by the parties involved. Whether we like it or not, public opinion seems to have become as important to both sides as the negotiating.


Last edited by Tinalera: 01-04-2013 at 08:21 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old
01-04-2013, 08:16 AM
  #291
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Can 80% of teams make money with what the players are offering????? If yes take it....If no keep fighting.....there are teams in the NHL that will NEVER make money so no reason to suffer for them IMHO

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:18 AM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'm honestly not sure why we're even talking about this.

Ok, so there was a kerfuffle over this proposed change to an article. The players think the NHL was being sneaky, the NHL denies it. Ok, whatever. Moving on. The article was changed back to its original wording. Issue resolved. Right?


Right?


What is the deal here? What do the players expect to happen at this juncture?
People are talking about it because they like to complain about players complaining.

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01-04-2013, 08:20 AM
  #293
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Just 8 more days until this is gloriously over, one way or the other. I don't care which way it goes anymore, just pick one. If they play this season, that will be great. I'll be watching from puck drop of Game 1, because I'm an idiot, pathetic, and a sucker, otherwise known as a fan. If the season gets cancelled, and I hope the NHL is serious about this deadline, that just means I won't have to worry about what a bunch of people with more money than me are doing with themselves for probably damn near a calendar year. It'll be wonderful.

I'm ready for one more week of the normal crap from these two sides. I can see it dragging out to the very end. I expect nothing less from the NHL and NHLPA. I would be dishonoring both sides if I thought there was a way for them to do any less.

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01-04-2013, 08:20 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Just 8 more days until this is gloriously over, one way or the other. I don't care which way it goes anymore, just pick one. If they play this season, that will be great. I'll be watching from puck drop of Game 1, because I'm an idiot, pathetic, and a sucker, otherwise known as a fan. If the season gets cancelled, and I hope the NHL is serious about this deadline, that just means I won't have to worry about what a bunch of people with more money than me are doing with themselves for probably damn near a calendar year. It'll be wonderful.

I'm ready for one more week of the normal crap from these two sides. I can see it dragging out to the very end. I expect nothing less from the NHL and NHLPA. I would be dishonoring both sides if I thought there was a way for them to do any less.
that makes 2 of us

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:22 AM
  #295
tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I'm not sure myself, but I do think this: this is the first lockout where twitter and other "instant" social media has had such a definitive grip on both sides "getting their story out" to gain traction in the PR war (yes we had internet last lockout, but there wasn't the "instant twitter" type of structure there is now"). I think this is a symptom of that-something some may consider "small", yet any grip it seems to win the war in public opinion. And as a result we've had an incredibly surreal statements and actions coming out to the public, and the public has taken their sides, so it's all about one side or the other "winning" all the fights-and this IMO is just another result of the 'instant' media trying to stir up things-and both sides of guilty of it.

So what's the "big deal"? In the grand scheme of things, probably not a lot, but we have to apparently be told it is a big deal by the parties involved. Whether we like it or not, public opinion seems to have become as important to both sides as the negotiating.
This is pretty much the only interpretation of these events that I can imagine making any sense. This whole storyline is just so... vapid... I just have a hard time believing that this particular drama is really relevant to the big picture.

The fact that the players' "mood" has been referenced so many times almost makes the whole thing sound made-up. Who derails a $30 billion negotiation because of a bad mood?

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:24 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
@JKTHN: Hearing that prior to yesterday's freeze, sides had agreed to firm 8-year CBA, no opt outs.

https://twitter.com/jkthn/status/287197730076512256

@JKTHN: Other persistent rumors: PA feels season of fewer than 48 G still in play (42?). And that PA may still try to get slice of future exp. fees.

https://twitter.com/jkthn/status/287198888501334019
8 is great

And they realize that they don't have a say in the season being cancelled if Bettman were to pull the plug right? And is it really worth stalling another week if they lose all 48 for it? Hope this is just twitter BS because it is ridiculous.

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01-04-2013, 08:26 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
So, players want to risk this season for a few more dollars. Great.
see, things like this make me hope they try and the league just says "eff this, season done". The PA is being moronic and thinks this is a game. It shows just how immature and uneducated most of them really are.

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:26 AM
  #298
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Since the players don't really believe next week is the deadline.....Garry should go on TV and say due to what Don did last week getting our fans hope up I am making a commitment to keeping my word once I say the season is cancelled....there will be no next day surprise deal once I say the season is done. This would put pressure on the players to get a deal done.

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:27 AM
  #299
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@JKTHN: Other persistent rumors: PA feels season of fewer than 48 G still in play (42?). And that PA may still try to get slice of future exp. fees.

https://twitter.com/jkthn/status/287198888501334019
Am I interpreting this wrong, or is the PA trying to intentionally cancel games?

I guess I understand what they're after (same paychecks, less work), but WOW do the optics look bad on that.

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01-04-2013, 08:30 AM
  #300
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Am I interpreting this wrong, or is the PA trying to intentionally cancel games?

I guess I understand what they're after (same paychecks, less work), but WOW do the optics look bad on that.
not exactly, I think they are saying the deadline is false. They can get still get a 42 game season and it will give more time to the Fehr brothers to squeeze more for the players.

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