HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

NHL Lockout Discussion XLIV: The Night and the Silent Water

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-04-2013, 12:59 PM
  #776
njdevil26
Registered User
 
njdevil26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Clark, NJ
Country: Italy
Posts: 6,514
vCash: 500
I don't necessarily believe the "drop dead" dates either... because I mean what if Bettman cancels the season next Thursday and Sunday night they magically agree on everything... then what?

njdevil26 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 12:59 PM
  #777
LPHabsFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,366
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to LPHabsFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Now, if only we could come up with a way to getting Bettman to nothing and this being his swan song. Maybe he'll try to stick around to see if he can oversee a fourth labour stoppage.
I don't think there's anyone out there that thinks he has more than 2-4 years left beyond this given what's gone on and certain rumors that have nothing to do with the governors thoughts towards him.

The difference is, unless he's taken a backseat to Bill Daly or Bob Batterman, there's no way that they will fire him before the completion of this CBA.

LPHabsFan is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 12:59 PM
  #778
Koss
Registered User
 
Koss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,591
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Koss
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marns View Post
In happier news, Jose Canseco is hoping to run for mayor of Toronto.
He withdrew his bid earlier. Seriously though, the man needs some help. Now back let's get back to the hard hitting issues of linen quality that the players need to endure in the tough NHL life.

Koss is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:00 PM
  #779
Unstable
Registered User
 
Unstable's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Exiled in NoVA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,104
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
Don Fehr can't handle the fact that in 7-8 days he will go from a position of importance and prominence with millions of people everyday having eyes on him to nothing.


Every league has labor security, he is old and will be retired or dead by the time the next chance comes.

This is his swan song and he is milking it, and don't be shocked if he find's his way to a cancelled season, even if he is fired so what?

If he isn't fired he is still in the limelight for months maybe 6 months.


This is insane.
Are you saying Fehr is insane, or are you saying your characterization of him is? There's no way a guy who is a household name because of major league baseball cares one whit how many people are following the national hockey league lockout. None whatsoever.

Unstable is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:00 PM
  #780
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Wing or Retire!
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alexandria
Country: Liberia
Posts: 36,302
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
Gary Bettman has saved the NHL.

Unless your going to argue he should have caused a couple seasons to be lost in 1994-???? to ensure the leagues financial security he has actually saved the NHL from financial ruin.

I guess unless you are also going to argue for a 21-23 team league?
The problem with Bettman is that he has been too aggressive to the players, and they feel the need to fight back...hence Fehr. Labor relations are terrible, and it's something that needs addressing. Cleaning house in the NHL and NHLPA before the next CBA battle would be ideal. It's time to hit the reset button.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:00 PM
  #781
vanwest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
Gary Bettman has saved the NHL.

Unless your going to argue he should have caused a couple seasons to be lost in 1994-???? to ensure the leagues financial security he has actually saved the NHL from financial ruin.

I guess unless you are also going to argue for a 21-23 team league?
He's the Wayne Gretzky of work stoppages. He's set a record for games lost that will likely not be broken. If that's called saving the NHL then I disagree.

vanwest is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:01 PM
  #782
MeestaDeteta
Registered User
 
MeestaDeteta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Saskazoo
Posts: 7,380
vCash: 139
When does this second vote for DOI end?

MeestaDeteta is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:01 PM
  #783
molsonmuscle360
Registered User
 
molsonmuscle360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ft. McMurray Ab
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
It's bluffing because the remaining issues are relatively minor and rational businessmen (like the owners are supposed to be) don't act like that.
They do when their employees are trying to push them to that deadline in order to try to get everything they want. If the players try to push the owners too hard with their last offer at the deadline, they will be told to take a hike, plain and simple. The owners know they can financially outlast the players. It'll turn it from an open battlefield war, to a siege.

molsonmuscle360 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:02 PM
  #784
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 15,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzo1000 View Post
OK here's the issue I have with the whole penalty for hiding HRR issue. Has any team ever even been accused of hiding HRR since the HRR related cap came into existence? I believe that they actually had the paperwork for a week as the league says and it was either overlooked by whoever the PA has proofing the legal docs or intentionally held back as ammunition by the Fehr bros.

Fehr is a master manipulator and he has a slew of under qualified, inexperienced and "emotional" based negotiators on hand. It's so easy for him to spin them into a frenzy of "us against the evil NHL owners" that it's just patently ridiculous.

I just don't get the whole situation at all. What did the players gain by hiring Fehr? They have had their "salad days" (look it up if you don't know) over the term of the last CBA. Salaries have risen to levels they've never seen before, HRR has increased every year and somehow they hire the one guy who is going to blow it all up and ruin the partnership they established with the league and the owners?

Why are the players actually even involved in the negotiations? This is a business negotiation. They should have labour lawyers negotiating for them and report to a player's committee...sorry but Campoli, Doan, Hainsey, Parros et al are not qualified to do this work.
I've been wondering this too.

it would be like the owners bringing their high school kids/grand kids to the meetings and giving them a say in the negotiations.

"Grandpa said the PA is trying to pull a fast one on us, and I have no idea what any of this legal stuff means or how business negotiations work, so I'm gonna take his word for it!"

Ragamuffin Gunner is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:02 PM
  #785
T-Funk
Registered User
 
T-Funk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,935
vCash: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
I don't necessarily believe the "drop dead" dates either... because I mean what if Bettman cancels the season next Thursday and Sunday night they magically agree on everything... then what?
Well when Crosby and Ovechkin stroll up to NHL headquarters after the season has been cancelled, we'll see if they are any better at salvaging it than Gretzky and Lemieux.

T-Funk is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:02 PM
  #786
Dado
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
No. If after DOI, Donald Fehr can be allowed to continue negotiating for the players, then what is stopping 700 other lawyers from doing the same thing?
The DOI isn't between Fehr and the PA, it's between the PA and the players.

 
Old
01-04-2013, 01:02 PM
  #787
frivolousz21
Registered User
 
frivolousz21's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Louis, Mo
Country: United States
Posts: 2,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
Are you saying Fehr is insane, or are you saying your characterization of him is? There's no way a guy who is a household name because of major league baseball cares one whit how many people are following the national hockey league lockout. None whatsoever.


I never said he cares how many NHL fans there are.

His EGO Cares that he important attm.

When this is over how many times will his name be in print, radio, twitter everyday?

How long has he been NHLPA leader? Is he going to give it a good 10-20 years or retire after this?

frivolousz21 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:05 PM
  #788
bunjay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,265
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Agreed. It's the equivalent of the NHL saying that they will cancel the season if there is no deal by Jan 11th. No one seriously thinks that Bettman will cancel the season over the remaining issues. Neither of these two guys can help themselves from using these tactics.
If the owners think they can make more money with a more favourable deal over 5+ years than they'll lose by missing out on a partial season then of course they would cancel it. They already went through an entire missed season and when that was all over with, the only ones who were worse off were the fans and the players.

Bettman is an employee of the owners. He will do what a majority tells him to do. The owners may also feel that without collective bargaining rights, they can actually gouge the players individually. I fail to see how the threat of losing a 40-something game season would have the owners shaking in their boots if it meant they could negotiate anything they felt like into contracts with players who have already lost a ton of money.

Am I missing something? It seems to me that dissolving the union means that the owners hold ALL the cards.

bunjay is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:05 PM
  #789
T-Funk
Registered User
 
T-Funk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,935
vCash: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
The DOI isn't between Fehr and the PA, it's between the PA and the players.
........

T-Funk is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:06 PM
  #790
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Wing or Retire!
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alexandria
Country: Liberia
Posts: 36,302
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I've been wondering this too.

it would be like the owners bringing their high school kids/grand kids to the meetings and giving them a say in the negotiations.

"Grandpa said the PA is trying to pull a fast one on us, and I have no idea what any of this legal stuff means or how business negotiations work, so I'm gonna take his word for it!"
It's nothing like bringing their kids and grandkids. These negotiations directly impact the players' lives. The players have a direct stake...the owners' grandkids don't. By having players in the room, Fehr can show he's being completely open with the PA and can say he's acting according to their wishes. It makes sense...especially after Bettman accused him of witholding info from the players, despite there being players in the room at the time.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:06 PM
  #791
vanwest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
They do when their employees are trying to push them to that deadline in order to try to get everything they want. If the players try to push the owners too hard with their last offer at the deadline, they will be told to take a hike, plain and simple. The owners know they can financially outlast the players. It'll turn it from an open battlefield war, to a siege.
I disagree. But then I'm acting on the assumption that the owners are rational businessmen and won't throw away hundreds of millions of dollars over the remaining issues such as pensions.

vanwest is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:07 PM
  #792
RaiderDoug
Registered User
 
RaiderDoug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Knoxville
Country: United States
Posts: 1,774
vCash: 500
I've said this in a previous thread and I'll say it again - the deal will be completed Tuesday or Wednesday..

The heavy lifting was done in the last few sessions - you know the ones where each side was seemingly agreeing to everything and everybody was acting all hunky-dory.

At this point, it's just a matter of each side trying to squeeze whatever other little bits they can out of the other, and all the rhetoric is just sabre rattling.

There's no point in agreeing to a deal today when you can push it a little farther to the brink in order to get even a marginally better deal. Both sides are doing this.

RaiderDoug is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:07 PM
  #793
frivolousz21
Registered User
 
frivolousz21's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Louis, Mo
Country: United States
Posts: 2,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
The problem with Bettman is that he has been too aggressive to the players, and they feel the need to fight back...hence Fehr. Labor relations are terrible, and it's something that needs addressing. Cleaning house in the NHL and NHLPA before the next CBA battle would be ideal. It's time to hit the reset button.
I get that. But he has had no choice in this when you look at the numbers in 1994 and 2004.

This one was poorly handled by Gary and his team and the owners really. They should have started prepping the players on the NHL financials back in 2009 or so. They should have never assumed the NHL players would trust them just because they changed the paradigm in 2004 and helped change the league's direction and make the players boat loads of cash.

I think they assumed the players would be like ok well last time you asked for a big rollback within a couple years we made more money than ever before and still have 100 mil+ raises as a group yearly. The players apparently do not value that or something. I would think most groups of employees would love to make 100 million more per yer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
He's the Wayne Gretzky of work stoppages. He's set a record for games lost that will likely not be broken. If that's called saving the NHL then I disagree.
So you think the NHL should be at 70/30 for the players or what?

frivolousz21 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:07 PM
  #794
Ugene Malkin
Oh..Well!
 
Ugene Malkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 21,024
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
It's bluffing because the remaining issues are relatively minor and rational businessmen (like the owners are supposed to be) don't act like that.
Remember, they're two parties here.

I agree, but one is the cliff, and both are walking up to it hand in hand. That cliff moves closer by it's own means (Calendar), but a DOI isn't restricted to a particular date. That leaves both sides playing the more important card "Father time."

I wonder which will have more meaning.

Ugene Malkin is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:07 PM
  #795
pepty
Registered User
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,041
vCash: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Now, if only we could come up with a way to getting Bettman to become nothing and for this to be his swan song. Maybe he'll try to stick around to see if he can oversee a fourth labour stoppage.
I don't want Bettman to quit, in my opinion he fought this battle for teams like the one I cheer for, the small and mid range market teams, and also the kind of league I would like to see, with a certain amount of parity so that fans of any one team don't think they are only a feeder station for some large rich team.

He has had to fight some of the owners and the PA and most of the press.I appreciate what he has done..

The NHLPA is on old style throwback type of union with an old style union warhorse leading the charge thanks to Buzz Hargrove and the CAW, Eric Lindros etc. The PA is stuffed with people such as Richard Rodier who are bitter with the NHL and have their own axe to grind.

Any commissioner who is doing his job will be attacked and vilified by that lot.
Anyway if this is a 10 year CBA, Bettman will most likely retire at some point before the next CBA.

pepty is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:08 PM
  #796
molsonmuscle360
Registered User
 
molsonmuscle360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ft. McMurray Ab
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
I disagree. But then I'm acting on the assumption that the owners are rational businessmen and won't throw away hundreds of millions of dollars over the remaining issues such as pensions.
So am I. Sure, the issues left may be small. But if you add them all up together it becomes fairly big. So, if the players try to get their way on ALL the remaining issues, the owners could very easily tell them to take a hike.

molsonmuscle360 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:08 PM
  #797
MacOfNiagara
Blue&Gold from birth
 
MacOfNiagara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Niagara Falls
Country: United States
Posts: 2,680
vCash: 500
Real_ESPNLeBrun (Pierre LeBrun)
Both sides continue to meet separately with mediator. No plan yet to resume full group bargaining...

http://twitter.com/Real_ESPNLeBrun/s...74168100216832

MacOfNiagara is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:08 PM
  #798
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 15,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BK201 View Post
Alfie was on Ottawa radio this morning and basically said part of the reason this is going so bad is that the first proposal the owners sent them was sooooo bad they are actually still pissed off about it.

He didn't say that directly but that in a nutshell.
Jesus Christ, get over it already.

The players are like a girlfriend who never forgives or forgets **** you did a year ago.

Ragamuffin Gunner is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:09 PM
  #799
frivolousz21
Registered User
 
frivolousz21's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Louis, Mo
Country: United States
Posts: 2,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
I disagree. But then I'm acting on the assumption that the owners are rational businessmen and won't throw away hundreds of millions of dollars over the remaining issues such as pensions.

And also throw away hundreds of millions of dollars in costs.

The major losers in this are the players.

And the fans.

The owners losses from missing an entire season is far far less.

frivolousz21 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 01:09 PM
  #800
vanwest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
If the owners think they can make more money with a more favourable deal over 5+ years than they'll lose by missing out on a partial season then of course they would cancel it. They already went through an entire missed season and when that was all over with, the only ones who were worse off were the fans and the players.

Bettman is an employee of the owners. He will do what a majority tells him to do. The owners may also feel that without collective bargaining rights, they can actually gouge the players individually. I fail to see how the threat of losing a 40-something game season would have the owners shaking in their boots if it meant they could negotiate anything they felt like into contracts with players who have already lost a ton of money.

Am I missing something? It seems to me that dissolving the union means that the owners hold ALL the cards.
If you can show me any rational basis on which the owners can make more money by cancelling the season vs compromising or even giving in on the remaining issues then I will agree. Again, I always assume that billionaires got that way by acting rationally and putting aside their emotions. I am sure that there are a few owners who may want to stick it to the players but I believe the majority will be rational businessmen and recognize the huge potential loss of a missed season oncluding future revenues.

vanwest is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:32 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.