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NHL Lockout Discussion XLIV: The Night and the Silent Water

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Old
01-03-2013, 11:54 PM
  #126
unifiedtheory
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Delete: Never mind, already covered.
I'm not calling Dreger a liar, I'm calling him a hack. Dreger's "sources" have always been shaky in my opinion.

I'll listen to Ren Lavoie, LeBrun and Bobby Mac. Lavoie states FACT, LeBrun is objective and Bob is plugged in like no other. Dreger states "sourced information" like it is fact without ever actually stating who the sources are OR using more than one source.

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01-03-2013, 11:54 PM
  #127
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http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ssing-to-worse

Fehr was brought in to stabilize the union?
Excuse me for a second...
(BWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!)

Allow me to ask again.
Fehr was brought in to stabilize the union?

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01-03-2013, 11:54 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You don't think throwing something in a 300 page document that you hadn't previously discussed, even if "bolded and highlighted", would be seen as something they were trying to sneak in? A poor attempt maybe but not cool from either side.

You telling me to think as objectively as I can is funny. Thanks.
I agree with this, not cool by the owners.

But clearly it was resolved quite quickly, so it's not a big deal at all.

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01-03-2013, 11:55 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You don't think throwing something in a 300 page document that you hadn't previously discussed, even if "bolded and highlighted", would be seen as something they were trying to sneak in? A poor attempt maybe but not cool from either side.

You telling me to think as objectively as I can is funny. Thanks.
How is that "sneaking in"? It was as reported - a comprehensive offer. That means it included everything. Going by that, everything HAS to be included in the document. League thought that's how it should be. How is that sneaking in?

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01-03-2013, 11:56 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if Fehr saw that section when the NHL sent the documents over and waited until any hiccup in the final stretch to tell his clients.

It's also irrelevant.

The big question I'd like answered is "why did Bettman try to reduce the penalty for defrauding employees late in December." Not "when did Don Fehr notice Bettman tried to do that." That's an incredibly scummy thing for the NHL to try.
This.

The pro owner hawks on this site conveniently ignore this fact. They are too busy acting like the owner's are as pure as the driven snow and the players are money grubbing monsters who need to be destroyed.

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01-03-2013, 11:57 PM
  #131
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This is what LeBrun says in his article that has me upset as well:

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OK, it turns out the players and their leader, Don Fehr, were in foul mood after they discovered the league might have tried to pull as fast one on HRR language in last week's offer. Did I say last week’s offer? Yes, I did. Did it really take a week for the union’s lawyers to find the HRR treachery? I don’t have a law degree and I’m sure these things are complicated, but if I’m a player I’m just as angry at the league for trying to pull a fast one as much as wanting to know why it took a week for my people to figure it out.

To me, sounds like PA wanted something and didn't get it yesterday, so now whining.

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01-03-2013, 11:57 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You don't think throwing something in a 300 page document that you hadn't previously discussed, even if "bolded and highlighted", would be seen as something they were trying to sneak in? A poor attempt maybe but not cool from either side.
It wouldn't be cool from either side. So much so that I can't believe an attorney would agree to do it for the NHL or for the PA. If this allegation was made against the PA I would be arguing just as vehemently that there's simply no way they would try to pull something like changing a legal document without notifying the other side.

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You telling me to think as objectively as I can is funny. Thanks.
I do try to see both sides and have said on many occasions that I blame both sides. I've also said I am more in support of the proposals set forth by the owners because I feel they'll be better for the league than those set forth by the players - not because i have some blind hatred for the players. I've said I thought the PA was absolutely correct to dismiss the league's proposed realignment out of hand because that plan was ridiculous. I've said the players have every right to negotiate the best deal they can, same for the owners, and that my preference is that it's fair for both sides. I've said that they should strive to get a good pension plan in place. I think that's a heckuva lot more objective than many other posters in this forum.

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01-03-2013, 11:59 PM
  #133
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I agree with this, not cool by the owners.

But clearly it was resolved quite quickly, so it's not a big deal at all.
Trust is important. The players have to feel like the NHL is going to honour the things they've talked about rather than trying to fudge them in some way. It's a problem.

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How is that "sneaking in"? It was as reported - a comprehensive offer. That means it included everything. Going by that, everything HAS to be included in the document. League thought that's how it should be. How is that sneaking in?
Whatever side gives the proposal usually fills the other side in on major changes or things they hadn't previously talked about. I think they players were upset their lawyers had to find this change. I would be too.

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01-04-2013, 12:03 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by unifiedtheory View Post
This.

The pro owner hawks on this site conveniently ignore this fact. They are too busy acting like the owner's are as pure as the driven snow and the players are money grubbing monsters who need to be destroyed.
I've been as hard on Fehr (within reason) as anyone. I think the guy's a poisonous figure who deformed baseball and has wasted his current clients' money for no good reason.

But "when did Don Fehr know Bettman tried to change the language in a manner to encourage fraud?" is the complete wrong question. "Why did Bettman even attempt that 100 days into a lockout?" is a far, FAR more relevant question to me.

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01-04-2013, 12:03 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by unifiedtheory View Post
This.

The pro owner hawks on this site conveniently ignore this fact. They are too busy acting like the owner's are as pure as the driven snow and the players are money grubbing monsters who need to be destroyed.
Actually, I'm not ignoring it. I've just had a lot of experience in the legal field through the years and am familiar with how negotiations work. Both sides have been making changes for days now, back and forth. That's how it's done. You tweak, you present it to the other side, they tweak and send it back. Agree on Item A, Agree on Item B, hit a snag on Item C. Go back and tweak Item A to take a little so you can give a little on Item C to get it resolved. It's not skullduggery. Both sides are finally actually negotiating - it's just taken so long it's hard to recognize it for what it is.

It could easily be said that the pro player hawks are just assuming the worst because it's a way to take a shot at the owners. I'm just suggesting that deliberately presenting a legal document with changes without notification to the other party is simply highly unlikely.

I don't think the owners are pure and I don't think the players are monsters. I think both sides have a lot of room for improvement. A lot.

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01-04-2013, 12:05 AM
  #136
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I don't think Fehr gives a **** if the NHL is bluffing.
And that's the problem.

Fehr doesn't really give a **** about the NHL or it's future.

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01-04-2013, 12:07 AM
  #137
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What if Fehr found the hi-lighted change last week, but waited now to bring it up, making the NHL work (and concede other things) under the impression that those changes were OK.

Accomplishes both getting concessions, and making the NHL look like the bad guy, so they concede more.

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01-04-2013, 12:08 AM
  #138
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So the owners are going to risk crushing their business and ruining the franchise value of the team they bought for 150m+ over the remaining issues to "bleed the players out"? really?
Not saying they should, just replying to the post. If Fehr does target the cap, then this thing becomes a whole lot uglier, and in turn, lengthier. If it did reach that stage, I think we can all agree the players would be the first to blink, since for most, the hockey IS their primary source of income.

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01-04-2013, 12:09 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
And that's the problem.

Fehr doesn't really give a **** about the NHL or it's future.
He was not hired to "give a ****" about the league. He was hired to protect the players.

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01-04-2013, 12:11 AM
  #140
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Bruce Arthur, on the money as usual.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...medium=twitter

Quote:
The players have come down from a US$67-million salary cap in 2013-14 to US$65-million; the owners are stuck at US$60-million, so as not to raise the salary floor above US$44-million, ostensibly in order to protect the weaker franchises; Bettman gave a speech about competitive balance late in the meeting Wednesday that wasn’t terribly well-received. The pension liability, which was supposed to be a settled issue, is still a major concern for the players, and there was an early evening meeting on the subject.

Essentially, they are fighting over US$150-million in salary cap space in 2013-14, which might be clawed back by escrow anyway. They are fighting over pensions, which the league had previously agreed to, and which constitutes a rowboat of potential financial liability in what will eventually be a small ocean of revenue. They are fighting over a number of structural niceties that, in the end, are not a hill that anybody should die on. (The NHLPA reportedly will take a 10-year CBA with an opt-out after seven years; the NHL wants an opt-out after eight. Player contract term limits are believed to have a similarly minor difference).

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01-04-2013, 12:11 AM
  #141
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we need to storm the meetings tomorrow... i'm being serious..

like 30,000 fans just riot and **** everybodys **** up

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01-04-2013, 12:12 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by unifiedtheory View Post
He was not hired to "give a ****" about the league. He was hired to protect the players.
those things arent mutually exclusive

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01-04-2013, 12:16 AM
  #143
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Bruce Arthur, on the money as usual.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...medium=twitter
Further shows this will end imo.

The differences are so tiny, and the conflicts/issues they are fighting over are no where near as big as before.

It might look bad for a second, but we still have a week left, they wont give up on everything until the very end it seems.

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01-04-2013, 12:20 AM
  #144
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Actually, I'm not ignoring it. I've just had a lot of experience in the legal field through the years and am familiar with how negotiations work. Both sides have been making changes for days now, back and forth. That's how it's done. You tweak, you present it to the other side, they tweak and send it back. Agree on Item A, Agree on Item B, hit a snag on Item C. Go back and tweak Item A to take a little so you can give a little on Item C to get it resolved. It's not skullduggery. Both sides are finally actually negotiating - it's just taken so long it's hard to recognize it for what it is.

It could easily be said that the pro player hawks are just assuming the worst because it's a way to take a shot at the owners. I'm just suggesting that deliberately presenting a legal document with changes without notification to the other party is simply highly unlikely.

I don't think the owners are pure and I don't think the players are monsters. I think both sides have a lot of room for improvement. A lot.
I agree with you. I find it highly unlikely that any lawyer for either side would actually alter a document in such a way as to make a material change to any issue, especially knowing that the entire document will be reviewed scrupulously by the other side on multiple occasions. Lawyers, particularly those who are successful enough to be working on this deal, are not stupid. Something like this could lead to significant fines and potential disbarment.

I don't buy it.

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01-04-2013, 12:21 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by unifiedtheory View Post
He was not hired to "give a ****" about the league. He was hired to protect the players.
The better the league does, the more HRR. The more HRR, the more the players make. It takes an almost willful shallowness of thinking to not comprehend that caring about improving the league is integral to protecting the players' future interests.

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01-04-2013, 12:22 AM
  #146
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Quote:
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He was not hired to "give a ****" about the league. He was hired to protect the players.
Is that a good thing though?

If he takes the league for what its worth and gets the players the perceived "best deal" yet through that the league struggles and 100 players or so lose their jobs, did he "protect the players"?

Meaning that through giving a **** about the league and making sure all 30 teams are healthy and making money and therefore more players are making money, isn't that protecting the players?

What would happen if Fehr "wins", and all of a sudden a few teams fold? Did he "win"? Did either side "win"?

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01-04-2013, 12:24 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
And that's the problem.

Fehr doesn't really give a **** about the NHL or it's future.
Why is it that everyone on this board realizes that, yet nobody in the players association does.

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01-04-2013, 12:25 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
How is that "sneaking in"? It was as reported - a comprehensive offer. That means it included everything. Going by that, everything HAS to be included in the document. League thought that's how it should be. How is that sneaking in?
This reminds me of the human centipad South Park episode. How's it the league's fault if the PA didn't fully read over everything they were negotiating. They had enough time for crying out loud

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01-04-2013, 12:28 AM
  #149
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Why is it that everyone on this board realizes that, yet nobody in the players association does.
Blindly following. I mean, this is how I look at it. When they fired Kelly to hire Fehr, they were all in at that point. There's no turning back after you make a big move like that.

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01-04-2013, 12:29 AM
  #150
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Is that a good thing though?

If he takes the league for what its worth and gets the players the perceived "best deal" yet through that the league struggles and 100 players or so lose their jobs, did he "protect the players"?

Meaning that through giving a **** about the league and making sure all 30 teams are healthy and making money and therefore more players are making money, isn't that protecting the players?

What would happen if Fehr "wins", and all of a sudden a few teams fold? Did he "win"? Did either side "win"?
There is no way all 30 teams can/will make money.

Wait, there is a way.

Salary cap at $25 million, starting tomorrow.

I am to the point where I want this thing blown up. Teams folding or relocating to better markets. No guaranteed contracts. No cap.

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