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What if...(mod: relocation proposal, subsequent effect on HRR)

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Old
01-05-2013, 04:03 PM
  #101
sandysan
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Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
There are expections placed on these markets 14K in attendance and X % yearly growth. These come from the NHL not you. Your expectations are for these markets to equal Toronto in revenue, ticket price and attendance. No one refuses expectations it's just we refuse your expectations. You are correct the envoirment between the 2 are vastly different 5+ genereations of fans to less than 1 generation. Also when these expectations are placed on a market understand people are going to notice how you do not place them on Ottawa, Buffalo, Chicago, Edmonton, ect when they don't meet all of your expectations either.
I call bull. 14k at less than market cost is no advantage. Look at the peg, they said from the get go " listen we are not Toronto or new York, we have by a large margin the lowest population base to draw from. Our arena is small, if you want this team to be viable, you are going to have to pay a premium". You know what, even under these conditions people lined up for season tickets. Columbus, a non traditional market with a questionable fan base comes into the league and says, don't worry our tickets are cheap, super cheap just show up and if the end we are in the red, we can make it up from somewhere else.

So based on your expectations, columbus can be as poorly run as it had do far for another 40 years ( 5 generations) before they get the hook? Are you serious ?

So you have gone from looking at the successes and saying that the jackets could do this to making comparisons to teams that had troubles but turned it around. Let's look at Ottawa a mid market them who did have financial troubles. But they emerged from bankruptcy to be where they are today. you know why? Because they have a good market. If you think that Columbus has the same market for the game as Ottawa you are delusional. [Mod] Instead of insisting you are the next pens or wings, I would prefer you focused on not being the next coyotes or thrashers.


Last edited by Killion: 01-05-2013 at 04:10 PM. Reason: once is enough.
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01-05-2013, 05:03 PM
  #102
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Would TO support a second team not called the leafs? People assume they wull--but in talking with people from the TO area and the erea in Onterio being mentioned--they say they are leaf fans and would not supporty another team.

Why not move the blues? Horrible attendance right now?
Either you are not talking to enough people or they are dumb and don't know hockry.
I live in Toronto and can tell you that although the leafs are the most loved team in the city, they are also the most hated. Judging by true hockry fans and not bandwagon jumpers, there are more non leaf fans(or primary team other than the leafs) than actual leaf fans in the gta.
Many people that are leaf fans are giving up and Toronto is afraid that because they are a horrible franchise, they would lose fans because there was another option as well as all the young kids that have another local option.
As for myself. Been a devils fan since 88. I got sick of a losing local team as a kid and switched allegiance. Die hard devils fan. Always will be. But if we get another local team they will be my number one.
I am a leaf fan but hate the organization with a passion. I want to support a local team, but not this garbage. Can't see how people still do.

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01-05-2013, 05:05 PM
  #103
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I call bull. 14k at less than market cost is no advantage. Look at the peg, they said from the get go " listen we are not Toronto or new York, we have by a large margin the lowest population base to draw from. Our arena is small, if you want this team to be viable, you are going to have to pay a premium". You know what, even under these conditions people lined up for season tickets. Columbus, a non traditional market with a questionable fan base comes into the league and says, don't worry our tickets are cheap, super cheap just show up and if the end we are in the red, we can make it up from somewhere else.

So based on your expectations, columbus can be as poorly run as it had do far for another 40 years ( 5 generations) before they get the hook? Are you serious ?

So you have gone from looking at the successes and saying that the jackets could do this to making comparisons to teams that had troubles but turned it around. Let's look at Ottawa a mid market them who did have financial troubles. But they emerged from bankruptcy to be where they are today. you know why? Because they have a good market. If you think that Columbus has the same market for the game as Ottawa you are delusional. [Mod] Instead of insisting you are the next pens or wings, I would prefer you focused on not being the next coyotes or thrashers.
And they're not... not by a long shot. Stop insinuating that they are. As for comparing Columbus to any Canadian team... you're talking apples and oranges. Demand in Canada is absolutely insane, and it's not fair to anyone to compare a smaller US market to any Canadian market.

Columbus needs two things over the next 4-6 years. Competent management - something they've never had (which Davidson should bring), and some sustained on ice success. Which if they're patient and make smart FA signings, and allow their young guys to develop, they should have. At that point (in years 5-10), we should see what Columbus can really bring to the table.

He didn't say that we should wait 40 years with Columbus having crappy management. He simply said that it's hard comparing teams when one has 5 generations of fans, to one that's been there 10 NHL seasons - most of which they while having incompetent management.

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01-05-2013, 05:20 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I call bull. 14k at less than market cost is no advantage. Look at the peg, they said from the get go " listen we are not Toronto or new York, we have by a large margin the lowest population base to draw from. Our arena is small, if you want this team to be viable, you are going to have to pay a premium". You know what, even under these conditions people lined up for season tickets. Columbus, a non traditional market with a questionable fan base comes into the league and says, don't worry our tickets are cheap, super cheap just show up and if the end we are in the red, we can make it up from somewhere else.

So based on your expectations, columbus can be as poorly run as it had do far for another 40 years ( 5 generations) before they get the hook? Are you serious ?

So you have gone from looking at the successes and saying that the jackets could do this to making comparisons to teams that had troubles but turned it around. Let's look at Ottawa a mid market them who did have financial troubles. But they emerged from bankruptcy to be where they are today. you know why? Because they have a good market. If you think that Columbus has the same market for the game as Ottawa you are delusional. [Mod] Instead of insisting you are the next pens or wings, I would prefer you focused on not being the next coyotes or thrashers.
Sorry dude, but Toronto sets the market value for.....Toronto. It doesn't determine what the market value of tickets are for the rest of the league.

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01-05-2013, 05:53 PM
  #105
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And they're not... not by a long shot. Stop insinuating that they are. As for comparing Columbus to any Canadian team... you're talking apples and oranges. Demand in Canada is absolutely insane, and it's not fair to anyone to compare a smaller US market to any Canadian market.

Columbus needs two things over the next 4-6 years. Competent management - something they've never had (which Davidson should bring), and some sustained on ice success. Which if they're patient and make smart FA signings, and allow their young guys to develop, they should have. At that point (in years 5-10), we should see what Columbus can really bring to the table.

He didn't say that we should wait 40 years with Columbus having crappy management. He simply said that it's hard comparing teams when one has 5 generations of fans, to one that's been there 10 NHL seasons - most of which they while having incompetent management.
Wait, its not fair to compare a us market to any Canadian market, even one with the lowest population base but still too 10 in revenues?

If a city like Columbus ( which has more people than the peg) can't fairly be compared to a market like Ottawa or the peg, what does this say about the relative demand? I thought a market was defined by attendance numbers and population exclusively.

Whether you like it or not, management is a component of market. Because they have been mismanaged should we set the clock back to zero and say that Columbus' time on the clock starts now? And if 10 years from now we can invoke a whole host of excuses for another mulligan.

I have been asking for a long time, how long can Columbus ( or any other team) suck before it makes sense to cut bait. Despite a whole bunch of people insisting that Columbus is just fine, as good as the caps the pens the wings ( I kid you not) or the sens, the next time someone answers that question with anything other than"more" will be the first.

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01-05-2013, 06:05 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Wait, its not fair to compare a us market to any Canadian market, even one with the lowest population base but still too 10 in revenues?

If a city like Columbus ( which has more people than the peg) can't fairly be compared to a market like Ottawa or the peg
, what does this say about the relative demand? I thought a market was defined by attendance numbers and population exclusively.
<snip>
I have been asking for a long time, how long can Columbus ( or any other team) suck before it makes sense to cut bait. Despite a whole bunch of people insisting that Columbus is just fine, as good as the caps the pens the wings ( I kid you not) or the sens, the next time someone answers that question with anything other than"more" will be the first.
So you want to compare a Canadian market who's top 10 in revenues, a Canadian market with a fan base who cannot get enough hockey to a team that's only had 10 seasons... all of which were mismanaged? Why not just compare them to Toronto, then call them a failure?

As long as there's an owner is willing to own the team in that location, you don't cut bait. The NHL's RS system means 15 teams get money... why does it matter which 15 teams those are?

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01-05-2013, 06:11 PM
  #107
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So you want to compare a Canadian market who's top 10 in revenues, a Canadian market with a fan base who cannot get enough hockey to a team that's only had 10 seasons... all of which were mismanaged? Why not just compare them to Toronto, then call them a failure?

As long as there's an owner is willing to own the team in that location, you don't cut bait. The NHL's RS system means 15 teams get money... why does it matter which 15 teams those are?
So the viability of a team is defined by being marginally better than failed markets, not compared to good markets?

I know there are requirements for Rs, but would fans of non traditional markets be willing to implement stronger restrictions or have rs conditional on performance metrics ? I don't think so, why spend the time and energy to grow your own markets when it is so easy to siphon money from good markets?

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01-05-2013, 06:21 PM
  #108
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Because they have been mismanaged should we set the clock back to zero and say that Columbus' time on the clock starts now? And if 10 years from now we can invoke a whole host of excuses for another mulligan.
Bingo. You've got it sandy. Thats exactly what Im saying; "clock starts now", the past is just a bad memory. And yes, if after another decade they still havent gotten their act together and no one with experience & savvy is willing to step up to the plate, then yes, move them, contract the franchise, whatever. But now, today, this year or next, within 5 or 7 years, no, not happening, not moving, not going anywhere. Give it a chance. Neither they nor really was Phoenix given that luxury, and they have both more than paid for the right to do so. I believe in second chances, you apparently dont, and thats your prerogative. Should be interesting to see how they manage yes?

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01-05-2013, 06:37 PM
  #109
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Bingo. You've got it sandy. Thats exactly what Im saying; "clock starts now", the past is just a bad memory. And yes, if after another decade they still havent gotten their act together and no one with experience & savvy is willing to step up to the plate, then yes, move them, contract the franchise, whatever. But now, today, this year or next, within 5 or 7 years, no, not happening, not moving, not going anywhere. Give it a chance. Neither they nor really was Phoenix given that luxury, and they have both more than paid for the right to do so. I believe in second chances, you apparently dont, and thats your prerogative. Should be interesting to see how they manage yes?
You have to stop babying these markets and providing them with convenient excuses for failure. At some point it is sink or swim. The notion that you get to take the life preserver from teams that don't need it is lunacy. You are enabling failure.

For second chances, if ( and only if) cbj gets moved you think that the fan base keeps the flame like fans of the jets ? You think they travel far and wide to other peoples barns like the fans of the diques for the sole purpose of saying, we are still here and we do not want to go quietly into that good night? Because I don't see either happening.

If Columbus can turn it around, great. If they can't they don't get to keep invoking excuses ( repeatedly) for why the market is great we just caught it on a down day. Especially when these excuses in good markets would be moot.

I want all teams to succeed. If it can't happen in Columbus, it most certainly can happen elsewhere.

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01-05-2013, 06:39 PM
  #110
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I call bull. 14k at less than market cost is no advantage. Look at the peg, they said from the get go " listen we are not Toronto or new York, we have by a large margin the lowest population base to draw from. Our arena is small, if you want this team to be viable, you are going to have to pay a premium". You know what, even under these conditions people lined up for season tickets. Columbus, a non traditional market with a questionable fan base comes into the league and says, don't worry our tickets are cheap, super cheap just show up and if the end we are in the red, we can make it up from somewhere else.

So based on your expectations, columbus can be as poorly run as it had do far for another 40 years ( 5 generations) before they get the hook? Are you serious ?

So you have gone from looking at the successes and saying that the jackets could do this to making comparisons to teams that had troubles but turned it around. Let's look at Ottawa a mid market them who did have financial troubles. But they emerged from bankruptcy to be where they are today. you know why? Because they have a good market. If you think that Columbus has the same market for the game as Ottawa you are delusional. [Mod] Instead of insisting you are the next pens or wings, I would prefer you focused on not being the next coyotes or thrashers.
This post is total ********.

Columbus came into the league and said, "Look this is our chance to have a major league franchise. In order to get one, fans are going to have to pay extra up front and pay prices comparable to large market teams like Philly. They required season ticket buyers purchase a Personal Seat License for a little more than a full season ticket per seat, plus pay the same price for season tickets as large market US teams. In turn, we will provide a great game experience and we will be an expansion team so not very good at first, but we will build a competitive team and you can be a part of it. One of the conditions of the PSL purchase was renew it or lose it. I paid $6,0000.00 for mine. Then my season tickets and parking cost $7,000.00 for two seats twelve years ago. As a lifelong Flyers fan, I had been paying $60-70 per ticket for lower bowl seats in Philly. The Blue Jackets were charging me $75.00 per seat + 15.00 to park.


Yes there are a few cheap tickets; no more than 50-100 per game, the Huntington Green seats and the Student seats. This goes back to when the team was founded, the majority owner John McConnell decided he wanted to hold back 50-100 seats at the very top of the arena to allow the "working man" to go to the occasional game and take his kids. Those were $10.00 each. As aforementioned, its restricted to 50-100 nosebleed seats.

Columbus sold out the arena for the first three years and continued to have strong attendance for roughly eight years.

In time, the quality of the game experience and the quality of the team began to suffer. The 2000 team was bad, but competed every night. These guys left it all on the ice. By 2008, they were badand rarely showed up. Team management did crazy and insulting things. For those who watch Sportsnet, imagine Doug MacLean telling them media after another bad effort, "I would much rather have this roster than the Red Wings."

Slowly a number of fans quit renewing and lost the thousands they paid for their PSLs. If they want them back, they must purchase the PSLs again. In spite of all that, Columbus still puts over 14,000 in per game at prices very similar to Philadelphia or Pittsburgh and much more than Buffalo.

Frankly, I am shocked at how little posters seem to know about markets other than their own. As a long time fan, I regularly attend games in other cities. Columbus charges much less than Toronto ticket brokers charge for Leafs seats, or tickets in Montreal, but I've attended games in Ottawa, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh and Philly for comparable prices.

Last season, I bought 2nd row seats next to the penalty box for Flyers / Rangers for $90.00 each. My own season ticket seats inColumbus are not as good as those, but cost the same per seat.



Columbus doesn't paper the house.

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01-05-2013, 06:48 PM
  #111
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So the viability of a team is defined by being marginally better than failed markets, not compared to good markets?

I know there are requirements for Rs, but would fans of non traditional markets be willing to implement stronger restrictions or have rs conditional on performance metrics ? I don't think so, why spend the time and energy to grow your own markets when it is so easy to siphon money from good markets?
There actually shouldn't be any metrics. Take the teams at the bottom of the revenue pile (however the system determines this 10 teams, 15, whatever), and cut them a cheque. It doesn't matter who those teams are, it doesn't matter how often their at the bottom. The NHL is going to cut those cheques anyway, so why does it matter who cashes them? The idea behind RS is to help the guys at the bottom, and to lessen the revenue disparity between them and the guys at the top. So why does it matter who those teams are?

A market doesn't have to be as good as Winnipeg or Ottawa to be viable. You're looking at a team that's only played 10 seasons, been horribly mismanaged, and complaining that they're not producing enough revenue. Then on top of that, comparing them to Winnipeg - a location that's had professional hockey going back to the 70s. Or to Ottawa, a team that's been around for over 20 years. And again, both of these teams are in Canada, where the demand is much much higher than that of the US, where they can charge outrageous prices, and not only do we line up and beg to have the option of paying for it, we do so with a smile, and say thank you.


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01-05-2013, 06:55 PM
  #112
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Absolutely, and Im 110% certain they will. Just some serious dysfunction combined with incompetence, economic meltdown and other factors that's had them reeling and right out of the box. take's a real special breed to mess up NHL hockey in Ohio. Unfortunately, the franchise has employed more than its share. Still recovering from Doug MacLean, the first President/GM who I believe may well be related to Don Waddell. He who did such a masterful job in Atlanta. Now of course MacLean employed by various media outlets in Toronto. Shaping opinion. Just the kinda guy Canadians & enlightened hockey fans everywhere need to be listening to.
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A high-profile sports personality from P.E.I. is considering a run at the provincial Progressive Conservative Party leadership.

Former NHL coach and general manager Doug MacLean said he'll think about throwing his hat in the ring.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince...clean-584.html



He can't run a hockey team, now he's thinking about running a province.

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01-05-2013, 06:56 PM
  #113
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This post is total ********.

Columbus came into the league and said, "Look this is our chance to have a major league franchise. In order to get one, fans are going to have to pay extra up front and pay prices comparable to large market teams like Philly. They required season ticket buyers purchase a Personal Seat License for a little more than a full season ticket per seat, plus pay the same price for season tickets as large market US teams. In turn, we will provide a great game experience and we will be an expansion team so not very good at first, but we will build a competitive team and you can be a part of it. One of the conditions of the PSL purchase was renew it or lose it. I paid $6,0000.00 for mine. Then my season tickets and parking cost $7,000.00 for two seats twelve years ago. As a lifelong Flyers fan, I had been paying $60-70 per ticket for lower bowl seats in Philly. The Blue Jackets were charging me $75.00 per seat + 15.00 to park.


Yes there are a few cheap tickets; no more than 50-100 per game, the Huntington Green seats and the Student seats. This goes back to when the team was founded, the majority owner John McConnell decided he wanted to hold back 50-100 seats at the very top of the arena to allow the "working man" to go to the occasional game and take his kids. Those were $10.00 each. As aforementioned, its restricted to 50-100 nosebleed seats.

Columbus sold out the arena for the first three years and continued to have strong attendance for roughly eight years.

In time, the quality of the game experience and the quality of the team began to suffer. The 2000 team was bad, but competed every night. These guys left it all on the ice. By 2008, they were badand rarely showed up. Team management did crazy and insulting things. For those who watch Sportsnet, imagine Doug MacLean telling them media after another bad effort, "I would much rather have this roster than the Red Wings."

Slowly a number of fans quit renewing and lost the thousands they paid for their PSLs. If they want them back, they must purchase the PSLs again. In spite of all that, Columbus still puts over 14,000 in per game at prices very similar to Philadelphia or Pittsburgh and much more than Buffalo.

Frankly, I am shocked at how little posters seem to know about markets other than their own. As a long time fan, I regularly attend games in other cities. Columbus charges much less than Toronto ticket brokers charge for Leafs seats, or tickets in Montreal, but I've attended games in Ottawa, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh and Philly for comparable prices.

Last season, I bought 2nd row seats next to the penalty box for Flyers / Rangers for $90.00 each. My own season ticket seats inColumbus are not as good as those, but cost the same per seat.



Columbus doesn't paper the house.
Columbus is in the bottom third for average ticket prices.

If you want to label the history of the jackets till now as " one epic dress rehearsal", be my guest. But your brethren aren't even willing to put the team on the clock. Many people justifyably say that things look better now than last year. When we get to playing and if the Jackets keep the course the excuses will come in ( its a legacy before Davidson, we need time to turn the ship around before going in the right direction, we ran out of gas, we got a flat tire, my tux didn't come back from the cleaners, LOCUSTS!!!!!!!).

If you can identify limitations of your market ( either low pop, bad lease or low demand) and don't address these deficiencies from the jump, thinking you can get other markets that don't have these problems to pick up the slack makes you look like a welfare team.

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01-05-2013, 07:05 PM
  #114
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Columbus is in the bottom third for average ticket prices.

If you want to label the history of the jackets till now as " one epic dress rehearsal", be my guest. But your brethren aren't even willing to put the team on the clock. Many people justifyably say that things look better now than last year. When we get to playing and if the Jackets keep the course the excuses will come in ( its a legacy before Davidson, we need time to turn the ship around before going in the right direction, we ran out of gas, we got a flat tire, my tux didn't come back from the cleaners, LOCUSTS!!!!!!!).

If you can identify limitations of your market ( either low pop, bad lease or low demand) and don't address these deficiencies from the jump, thinking you can get other markets that don't have these problems to pick up the slack makes you look like a welfare team.
Please provide proof that Columbus is in the bottom third.

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01-05-2013, 07:06 PM
  #115
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Columbus is in the bottom third for average ticket prices.

If you want to label the history of the jackets till now as " one epic dress rehearsal", be my guest. But your brethren aren't even willing to put the team on the clock. Many people justifyably say that things look better now than last year. When we get to playing and if the Jackets keep the course the excuses will come in ( its a legacy before Davidson, we need time to turn the ship around before going in the right direction, we ran out of gas, we got a flat tire, my tux didn't come back from the cleaners, LOCUSTS!!!!!!!).

If you can identify limitations of your market ( either low pop, bad lease or low demand) and don't address these deficiencies from the jump, thinking you can get other markets that don't have these problems to pick up the slack makes you look like a welfare team.
So Davidson is just suppose to wave his magic wand and fix that ****? He realistically needs 4-6 years unless he gets damn lucky. But regardless... if after 8 years they're still sucking hind tit, and someone still wants to own them there... what's the issue?

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01-05-2013, 07:10 PM
  #116
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So Davidson is just suppose to wave his magic wand and fix that ****? He realistically needs 4-6 years unless he gets damn lucky. But regardless... if after 8 years they're still sucking hind tit, and someone still wants to own them there... what's the issue?
Thanks for answering this, you are the first to do so and I wished there was a way to archive this because I'd be willing to bet that if cbjs state after the next CBA looks like the last CBA, there will still be apologists insisting that they will turn it around, if you can just give them more time on someone else's dime.

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01-05-2013, 07:16 PM
  #117
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Please provide proof that Columbus is in the bottom third.
Here you go ( 21/30 is bottom third and below the league average)

http://hookedonhockeymagazine.com/av...1-2012-season/

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Last edited by Killion: 01-05-2013 at 07:23 PM. Reason: drop the condescension plz...
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01-05-2013, 07:21 PM
  #118
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Here you go ( 21/30 is bottom third and below the league average)

http://hookedonhockeymagazine.com/av...1-2012-season/

If you want to know where the peg is strain your neck up.
That link pulls it's data from TMR which is so flawed that it's useless.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...75&postcount=5

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01-05-2013, 07:22 PM
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Here you go ( 21/30 is bottom third and below the league average)

http://hookedonhockeymagazine.com/av...1-2012-season/

If you want to know where the peg is strain your neck up.
That's TMR data. Soon several mods beginnining with Kdb209 will be along to tell you its been proven wrong many times and is not to be used.

Go get the real data

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01-05-2013, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
That link pulls it's data from TMR which is so flawed that it's useless.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...75&postcount=5
I'll admit I did t vet this data, but I saw another source with similar data. If you have data that says I am wrong, I would love to see it. Do you have proof that Columbus isn't in the bottom third and below the league average? Thanks

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01-05-2013, 07:26 PM
  #121
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He can't run a hockey team, now he's thinking about running a province.
Good God.... well, when all else fails, theres always politics huh?

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01-05-2013, 07:27 PM
  #122
TaketheCannoli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I'll admit I did t vet this data, but I saw another source with similar data. If you have data that says I am wrong, I would love to see it. Do you have proof that Columbus isn't in the bottom third and below the league average? Thanks
Its on this site! Search is your friend.

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01-05-2013, 08:07 PM
  #123
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I remember Mr. Bettman stated that the viability of any franchise replies on 3 pilars (or paraphrase of)

1) A Market - incuding and not limited to a city wanting a team/build arena/AMF etc...
2) A Building - an subsequent lease or owned by potenial ower
3) A Owner/ownership group that wants to operate a team in that market.

Since all franchises currently have the 3 pilars (Phoenix working on #3) there's really realistic chance of any moving despite some being among the lowest being in revenue, attendance.

So all hypothetical in the end

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01-05-2013, 08:32 PM
  #124
sandysan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
That link pulls it's data from TMR which is so flawed that it's useless.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...75&postcount=5
Okay, I got the attendance for 2011-2012 from espn which as far as I can tell does not include the "premium exception". I also got the figures for the leaked gate revenue per game from the star ( it is not online but apparently it was in print, someone transposed the numbers and pasted it).

I took the gate per game X 41 / the attendance (ESPN) then sorted the numbers in Excel. Where does columbus rank ? 20th. So I was wrong.

but looking at the Star data ( I am sure that they faked the leaked data in hopes that some aspiring canuck would use this data to badmouth the jackets) and winnepeg is not listed. If you assume that winnepeg has a higher cost on average than columbus, then that bumps columbus to 21st, precisely where I said they were previously ( in the bottom third, below the nhl average).

Is this a true metric of average cost ? probably not, teams that paper tickets would have lower averages but since columbus doesnt paper tickets its something.

Im not suggesting that it is better than TMR, In not saying this is the best analysis. If you have a better one, I'd like to see it.

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01-05-2013, 09:17 PM
  #125
TaketheCannoli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
if its flawed its flawed, I just did a little cut and pasting in excel using the espn attendance numbers and the "leaked" revenue per game from the Star and got the same place.

If you have some data to say that columbus is NOT in the bottom third and below the league average, I'd like to see it. Or is it that you can say that becuase the analysis is suspect ( or the authenticity of the numbers suspect) that this proves that they are not in the bottom third in average. This might disprove my hypothesis, but it doesnt prove yours. Because if these numbers arent to your fancy, its theoretically possible that columbus has the highest average ticket price in the league.
yes its flawed on many levels. ESPN uses "reported attendance"

there are three ways attendance can be reported:

turnstile count
sold tickets
estimate


Turnstile count is of course the most accurate
Sold tickets counts all tickets sold no matter whther they were used or not
Estimated is a total swag and often is inflated.
Unless you know which method was used by each team, your method is flawed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Okay, I got the attendance for 2011-2012 from espn which as far as I can tell does not include the "premium exception". I also got the figures for the leaked gate revenue per game from the star ( it is not online but apparently it was in print, someone transposed the numbers and pasted it).

I took the gate per game X 41 / the attendance (ESPN) then sorted the numbers in Excel. Where does columbus rank ? 20th. So I was wrong.

but looking at the Star data ( I am sure that they faked the leaked data in hopes that some aspiring canuck would use this data to badmouth the jackets) and winnepeg is not listed. If you assume that winnepeg has a higher cost on average than columbus, then that bumps columbus to 21st, precisely where I said they were previously ( in the bottom third, below the nhl average).

Is this a true metric of average cost ? probably not, teams that paper tickets would have lower averages but since columbus doesnt paper tickets its something.

Im not suggesting that it is better than TMR, In not saying this is the best analysis. If you have a better one, I'd like to see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I call bull. 14k at less than market cost is no advantage. Look at the peg, they said from the get go " listen we are not Toronto or new York, we have by a large margin the lowest population base to draw from. Our arena is small, if you want this team to be viable, you are going to have to pay a premium". You know what, even under these conditions people lined up for season tickets. Columbus, a non traditional market with a questionable fan base comes into the league and says, don't worry our tickets are cheap, super cheap just show up and if the end we are in the red, we can make it up from somewhere else.

So based on your expectations, columbus can be as poorly run as it had do far for another 40 years ( 5 generations) before they get the hook? Are you serious ?

So you have gone from looking at the successes and saying that the jackets could do this to making comparisons to teams that had troubles but turned it around. Let's look at Ottawa a mid market them who did have financial troubles. But they emerged from bankruptcy to be where they are today. you know why? Because they have a good market. If you think that Columbus has the same market for the game as Ottawa you are delusional. [Mod] Instead of insisting you are the next pens or wings, I would prefer you focused on not being the next coyotes or thrashers.
Since you claimed Columbus came into the league offering in your words Super cheap tickets and claiming attendance is irrelevent, why would you use:

data from one season ELEVEN years later?
reported attendance?

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