HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

Better captain: Sundin or Alfredsson?

View Poll Results: Who was/is the best captain?
Mats Sundin 89 43.20%
Daniel Alfredsson 117 56.80%
Voters: 206. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-04-2013, 02:51 PM
  #76
Romang67
BitterSwede
 
Romang67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Illinois
Country: Sweden
Posts: 9,870
vCash: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
False.

I voted based on what they have done in the NHL.
Wait... what?

It's meaningless to vote based on what Sundin did as captain for Tre Kronor, but it's totally legit to vote based on what they did in the NHL. Why?

Romang67 is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 02:51 PM
  #77
armani
Guy Likes
 
armani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,254
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
It's funny you imply others for lacking reading comprehension when my post was obviously about 2006 too. That's why I wrote "The other time when we lost to Slovakia in 2010".
With all due respect, how long have you been watching the National Hockey League (NHL)? The poll is for NHL (HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk).

Alfredsson is a proven leader. Gary Roberts' name came up more often as a TML leader than Sundin's when the Leafs were consistently kicking a upcoming Sens team's ass in the late 90s/early 2000s. Alfie personified leadership through his performance on and off the ice - both tangibly and intangibly (as you will see in many posts here). Sundin never came across as such, and your argument is poor if you say that Sundin is a greater captain than Alfie because he was the Swedish captain for the National team that played sporadically in tournament formats (brief periods) over the years.

armani is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 02:56 PM
  #78
Jonimaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lund
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by armani View Post
With all due respect, how long have you been watching the National Hockey League (NHL)? The poll is for NHL (HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk).

Alfredsson is a proven leader. Gary Roberts' name came up more often as a TML leader than Sundin's when the Leafs were consistently kicking a upcoming Sens team's ass in the late 90s/early 2000s. Alfie personified leadership through his performance on and off the ice - both tangibly and intangibly (as you will see in many posts here). Sundin never came across as such, and your argument is poor if you say that Sundin is a greater captain than Alfie because he was the Swedish captain for the National team that played sporadically in tournament formats (brief periods) over the years.
What is this I don't even... Thank god most people does not reason like this, otherwise 1/3rd of the polls here would be invalid. If people went by this, this poll should be closed, so why do you even bother posting in it?

In every 2nd poll international play is being brought up.


Last edited by Jonimaus: 01-04-2013 at 03:03 PM.
Jonimaus is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 03:03 PM
  #79
Benny FTW
Head Light Fluid
 
Benny FTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,992
vCash: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post
Wait... what?

It's meaningless to vote based on what Sundin did as captain for Tre Kronor, but it's totally legit to vote based on what they did in the NHL. Why?
7 games vs over 1,000 games. I wonder why.

Benny FTW is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 03:08 PM
  #80
Romang67
BitterSwede
 
Romang67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Illinois
Country: Sweden
Posts: 9,870
vCash: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
7 games vs over 1,000 games. I wonder why.
Let me rephrase that. It's meaningless to vote based on Sundin being named Captain for Tre Kronor and what he subsequently did as captain, but it's totally legit to do the same with Alfredsson for the Sens?

So your argument is basically that we should ignore international play because they play that less?

Romang67 is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 03:09 PM
  #81
Romang67
BitterSwede
 
Romang67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Illinois
Country: Sweden
Posts: 9,870
vCash: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
What is this I don't even... Thank god most people does not reason like this, otherwise 1/3rd of the polls here would be invalid. If people went by this, this poll should be closed, so why do you even bother posting in it?

In every 2nd poll international play is being brought up.
Hush you! Only NHL is allowed to be discussed here! Didn't you wonder why all the polls were exclusively about the lockout?

Romang67 is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 03:21 PM
  #82
PinkPanther
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 586
vCash: 500
Alfredsson. We will all use our own criteria to define 'better'. The criteria I used here:

-committed to the same team his entire career (meaningless to some but a part of my voting)

- Lead team to three division titles under his captaincy

- Leader of President's Trophy winning squad

- Leader of Prince of Whales winning squad

- Leading scorer in 2007 playoffs which lead to appearance in Finals

There are other reasons I won't bore you with here but the above reasons are the more obvious ones. That lame argument that he had a 'better supporting cast' is just that, a weak argument to justify the less significant team accomplishments under Sundin's tenure. It's all a matter of personal opinion and bias too. Albeit, under Sundin's captaincy the Leafs did beat the Senators in 4 playoffs however those are empty accomplishments because Sundin failed to take the team to the next level after those wins. Again, just my opinion

PinkPanther is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 03:44 PM
  #83
Benny FTW
Head Light Fluid
 
Benny FTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,992
vCash: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post
Let me rephrase that. It's meaningless to vote based on Sundin being named Captain for Tre Kronor and what he subsequently did as captain, but it's totally legit to do the same with Alfredsson for the Sens?

So your argument is basically that we should ignore international play because they play that less?
I never said that. I said no one knows why Sundin was named captain and it may not be because he was the better captain.

Yes. 7 games is insignificant compared to over 1,000 games. Especially on a team full of great players.

Benny FTW is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 03:57 PM
  #84
iPunch
Leafs Fan
 
iPunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,263
vCash: 133
Is Alfredsson actually winning? How HF boards of a poll.

iPunch is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 04:06 PM
  #85
Romang67
BitterSwede
 
Romang67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Illinois
Country: Sweden
Posts: 9,870
vCash: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
I never said that. I said no one knows why Sundin was named captain and it may not be because he was the better captain.

Yes. 7 games is insignificant compared to over 1,000 games. Especially on a team full of great players.
Ok, if you're gonna ignore his stint as captain for Tre Kronor because you're saying that we can't know why he was named captain, it's pretty pointless to have this discussion.

More often than not, it's because the coaching staff, or the players, or both, decide that the person has the best leadership skill, would make the best captain, and would give the team the best chances to win.

More seldom it's because he picked the longest straw.

Romang67 is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 04:20 PM
  #86
Mathieu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 736
vCash: 500
You're trying to hard there Romang.

Mathieu is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 04:24 PM
  #87
The Podium
Formerly chrisx101
 
The Podium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,306
vCash: 657
Well Sweden believed Sundin was a better choice for captain than lidstrom, now ask yourself is alfredsson a better captain than lidstrom ? (This is to differ arguments as to why alfredsson wasnt captain of Sweden not an attack on lidstrom, age, luck, respect shouldn't be taken into account considering lidstrom was older, and at the very minimum equal too Sundin skill wise)

The Podium is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 04:42 PM
  #88
jbeck5
Registered User
 
jbeck5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Well Sweden believed Sundin was a better choice for captain than lidstrom, now ask yourself is alfredsson a better captain than lidstrom ? (This is to differ arguments as to why alfredsson wasnt captain of Sweden not an attack on lidstrom, age, luck, respect shouldn't be taken into account considering lidstrom was older, and at the very minimum equal too Sundin skill wise)
I'm not going to debate why sundin was captain over lidstrom...i don't know why...but as for why sundin was captain over alfredsson is fairly obvious. By the time alfredsson was just hitting the world stage, sundin had already experienced his best season he would ever experience years before. Around 2000 is when alfredsson really made a name for himself with his first over a point a game season. Sundin was 7 years removed from his 100+ season...

So to say the only reason sundin was captain over alfredsson was because he was a better captain is incredibly short sighted. You're overlooking their ages and accomplishments to date. Sundin was past his prime offensively and established when alfredsson hit the scene...of course they won't just strip him of his C to see if a younger, less accomplished guy might be a better C.

If that is your argument, it is a sad, sad, sad one for the reasons i've stated above. Anyone with a brain understands sundin's older then alfredsson and was more accomplished throughout the 90s. The only way alfredsson would get the captain(regardless of if hes a better C or not) would be once sundin retires because stipping a C for no reason isn't usually a good move.

jbeck5 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 04:55 PM
  #89
The Podium
Formerly chrisx101
 
The Podium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,306
vCash: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
I'm not going to debate why sundin was captain over lidstrom...i don't know why...but as for why sundin was captain over alfredsson is fairly obvious. By the time alfredsson was just hitting the world stage, sundin had already experienced his best season he would ever experience years before. Around 2000 is when alfredsson really made a name for himself with his first over a point a game season. Sundin was 7 years removed from his 100+ season...

So to say the only reason sundin was captain over alfredsson was because he was a better captain is incredibly short sighted. You're overlooking their ages and accomplishments to date. Sundin was past his prime offensively and established when alfredsson hit the scene...of course they won't just strip him of his C to see if a younger, less accomplished guy might be a better C.

If that is your argument, it is a sad, sad, sad one for the reasons i've stated above. Anyone with a brain understands sundin's older then alfredsson and was more accomplished throughout the 90s. The only way alfredsson would get the captain(regardless of if hes a better C or not) would be once sundin retires because stipping a C for no reason isn't usually a good move.
That's why I mentioned lidstrom, or even Forsberg for that matter, both arguably better players at the time, roughly the same age, both great captains, however despite play or age Sundin was the choice and remained such until the end of the decade, even after lidstrom established himself as a generational talent. You can mention arguments as why alfredsson was not selected, but then you would have to do the same for the other two candidates.

The Podium is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:06 PM
  #90
jbeck5
Registered User
 
jbeck5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
That's why I mentioned lidstrom, or even Forsberg for that matter, both arguably better players at the time, roughly the same age, both great captains, however despite play or age Sundin was the choice and remained such until the end of the decade, even after lidstrom established himself as a generational talent. You can mention arguments as why alfredsson was not selected, but then you would have to do the same for the other two candidates.
Player A being captain over player B does not give any proof to player A being a better captain then player C.

Since alfredsson being young and less established obviously meant they wouldn't strip sundin of captaincy to give it you a younger less established player unless sundin did some god-awful thing. This is all very obvious.

So you chose to argue that sundin got captaincy over lidstrom who is of similar age to sundin, unlike the younger alfredsson.

I say that sundin getting captaincy over lidstrom has nothing to do with alfredsson.

When sundin originally got his C, alfredsson wasn't established enough to be in the conversation. Lidstrom and Forsberg were. They gave it to sundin over forsberg and lidstrom. None of this has anything to do with alfredsson though. And none of it is proof of anything, except for maybe that sweden coaches at the time believed sundin was a better captain then forsberg and lidstrom.

I would then argue that the fact lidstrom played behind yzerman, and forsberg behind sakic kind of hid them from the "great captain image" whereas sundin was THE MAN on his team. I think that might be one of the bigger reasons for sundin originally being named captain. He was used to being the guy,whereas lids and fors were both in the shadow of some of the greater leaders of all time at that specific point.

And since teams ever so rarely strips captains, it's well understood that alfredsson wouldn't be able to be captain until sundin retired, or wasn't good enough to make the team any more. None of this is any proof on which is a better captain.

jbeck5 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:13 PM
  #91
Jonimaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lund
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Since alfredsson being young and less established obviously meant they wouldn't strip sundin of captaincy to give it you a younger less established player unless sundin did some god-awful thing. This is all very obvious.
There's a whole lot of whining about that 1 year Alfredsson is younger than Sundin.

Jonimaus is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:15 PM
  #92
Falcons93
Registered User
 
Falcons93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Since alfredsson being young and less established obviously meant they wouldn't strip sundin of captaincy to give it you a younger less established player unless sundin did some god-awful thing. This is all very obvious.

So you chose to argue that sundin got captaincy over lidstrom who is of similar age to sundin, unlike the younger alfredsson.
1 year younger. 1 year. It's not like Sundin was 30 while Alfredsson was 22.

Falcons93 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:19 PM
  #93
jbeck5
Registered User
 
jbeck5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
There's a whole lot of whining about that 1 year Alfredsson is younger than Sundin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
1 year younger. 1 year. It's not like Sundin was 30 while Alfredsson was 22.
Out of everything i said, the only thing you guys can come up with was that i was right, but only by a bit on one of my points?

He was less established. And yes, he was also younger. I didn't make anything up. Obviously the fact he was less established had more to do with it then the fact he was younger, but both played a part.

Next time, quote me when im wrong...not just when i'm right on 99% of my post, and still right, but only by a bit, on 1% of my post.

Jesus H Christ folks! Really?

You guys really had nothing there i guess. You had a problem with how much i was right with on one of my points. "sundin is older then alfredsson and more established"..."ONLY BY 1.8 YEARS!"..."anyways, as i was saying, sundin IS older then alfredsson, and more established at this point"

But because you guys cared soooo much:

Sundin was about 1.8 years older(give or take a decimal)
Sundin had 5 seasons in the NHL before Alfredsson started as alfredsson was a late bloomer.

There, happy?

jbeck5 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:22 PM
  #94
Jonimaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lund
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Out of everything i said, the only thing you guys can come up with was that i was right, but only by a bit on one of my points?

He was less established. And yes, he was also younger. I didn't make anything up. Obviously the fact he was less established had more to do with it then the fact he was younger, but both played a part.

Next time, quote me when im wrong...not just when i'm right on 99% of my post, and still right, but only by a bit, on 1% of my post.

Jesus H Christ folks! Really?

You guys really had nothing there i guess.
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I disagree with most that you say, but this has been covered in 4 pages now, and nothing has really been added for a while, and I feel I expressed my opinion very clearly, so I for the sake of the thread I feel no need to continue writing the same sentences over and over. If you want to see where I disagree with you I point you to my other posts in this thread.

To make it even more clear: Nothing you said has not already been said in this thread and already argued about.

Jonimaus is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:23 PM
  #95
Falcons93
Registered User
 
Falcons93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Out of everything i said, the only thing you guys can come up with was that i was right, but only by a bit on one of my points?

He was less established. And yes, he was also younger. I didn't make anything up. Obviously the fact he was less established had more to do with it then the fact he was younger, but both played a part.

Next time, quote me when im wrong...not just when i'm right on 99% of my post, and still right, but only by a bit, on 1% of my post.

Jesus H Christ folks! Really?

You guys really had nothing there i guess. You had a problem with how much i was right with on one of my points. "sundin is older then alfredsson and more established"..."ONLY BY 1.8 YEARS!"..."anyways, as i was saying, sundin IS older then alfredsson, and more established at this point"
I didn't take the time to read the rest of your post to be honest.

Falcons93 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:26 PM
  #96
jbeck5
Registered User
 
jbeck5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
I didn't take the time to read the rest of your post to be honest.
Ah, the ignorant needs to be vocal i see?

You admit to being ignorant towards my post, yet feel the need to be vocal about it.

That's sad.

jbeck5 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:27 PM
  #97
jbeck5
Registered User
 
jbeck5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I disagree with most that you say, but this has been covered in 4 pages now, and nothing has really been added for a while, and I feel I expressed my opinion very clearly, so I for the sake of the thread I feel no need to continue writing the same sentences over and over. If you want to see where I disagree with you I point you to my other posts in this thread.

To make it even more clear: Nothing you said has not already been said in this thread and already argued about.
You're contradicting yourself by responding in paragraph. If you're tired of hashing out the same arguments over and over again over 4 pages, you wouldn't still be here reading the posts and feeling the need to respond half assed responses and then follow up with paragraphs explaining why you'll keep it to half assed arguments. You're clearly still interested in arguing or else you wouldn't even post. How about stating what you disagree with about my specific post and we'll go from there. This is fun. This is how message forums work. Which fact of mine do you think is wrong?

jbeck5 is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:30 PM
  #98
uncleben85
My face is my mask.
 
uncleben85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
Alfie took a pay cut for the team, went without being paid so the team didn't fold and lives in Ottawa in the off season.

Sundin has played for three teams, retired and came back to a different team. Sold his house the same month he retired.
ummmm.... nope.

uncleben85 is online now  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:31 PM
  #99
Jonimaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lund
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
You're contradicting yourself by responding in paragraph. If you're tired of hashing out the same arguments over and over again over 4 pages, you wouldn't still be here posting paragraphs.
No I think your post was amusing. You begin with being wrong/exaggerating, and then go on claiming how everything you write it correct, and well, you make it sound like you state facts.
Of course you think you're right, but hey, I think you're wrong.

If you want to be taken seriously, don't write
Quote:
Next time, quote me when im wrong...not just when i'm right on 99% of my post, and still right, but only by a bit, on 1% of my post.
in a post, unless you're quoting facts with 100% reliable sources. Just a tip.

Jonimaus is offline  
Old
01-04-2013, 05:33 PM
  #100
jbeck5
Registered User
 
jbeck5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
No I think your post was amusing. You begin with being wrong/exaggerating, and then go on claiming how everything you write it correct, and well, you make it sound like you state fact.
Of course you think you're right, but hey, I think you're wrong.

If you want to be taken seriously, don't write
in a post, unless you're quoting facts with 100% reliable sources. Just a tip.
What did i say that was wrong?

Find me a source where sundin is younger then alfredsson, and has less experience. have fun.

jbeck5 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:36 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.