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Better captain: Sundin or Alfredsson?

View Poll Results: Who was/is the best captain?
Mats Sundin 89 43.20%
Daniel Alfredsson 117 56.80%
Voters: 206. You may not vote on this poll

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01-04-2013, 05:35 PM
  #101
SenateReform
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I disagree with most that you say, but this has been covered in 4 pages now, and nothing has really been added for a while, and I feel I expressed my opinion very clearly, so I for the sake of the thread I feel no need to continue writing the same sentences over and over. If you want to see where I disagree with you I point you to my other posts in this thread.

To make it even more clear: Nothing you said has not already been said in this thread and already argued about.
It's been debated for 4 pages now because you keep sticking to only one single argument that has been proven to have serious flaws. You also never addressed the argument and instead focused only on semantics.

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01-04-2013, 05:36 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by uncleben85 View Post
ummmm.... nope.
You're right, he did not retire, but was seriously debating retiring. You don't remember? That whole summer was "will sundin retire?" and in the fall "has sundin retired?" and then he signed with vancouver.

Remember this?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...ers-retirement

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01-04-2013, 05:37 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
You're right, he did not retire, but was seriously debating retiring. You don't remember? That whole summer was "will sundin retire?" and in the fall "has sundin retired?" and then he signed with vancouver.

Remember this?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...ers-retirement
This thread is full of Sundin lovers without any real value to add to the discussion and instead want to distract by arguing semantics.

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01-04-2013, 05:38 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
It's been debated for 4 pages now because you keep sticking to only one single argument that has been proven to have serious flaws. You also never addressed the argument and instead focused only on semantics.
I hate to say "this" but basically "this". He has yet to address any of my arguments. He's clearly skipping around it but thinks he's being clever about it like we won't notice.

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01-04-2013, 05:40 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by uncleben85 View Post
ummmm.... nope.
He signed on Dec. 18th. Free agency was July first earlier that year.

Sorry he came out of "hiatus" to play for another team.



Back to the Captain of Sweden argument.

Maybe...just maybe, they gave it to him because he was the first European player to ever be drafted first overall in an NHL draft. That is a special honour, and reflects Sweden's hockey program.

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01-04-2013, 05:40 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
This thread is full of Sundin lovers without any real value to add to the discussion and instead want to distract by arguing semantics.
I'm starting to see that now. And don't get me wrong, i like sundin. At one point, in the 90s, he was my favourite player. Even when i hated the leafs, i liked sundin. I'm not even arguing that alfredsson is a better captain, though i homer picked him. I'm just arguing that one of the arguments in favor of sundin are flawed...the sweden captain one.

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01-04-2013, 05:42 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Qward View Post
He signed on Dec. 18th. Free agency was July first earlier that year.

Sorry he came out of "hiatus" to play for another team.



Back to the Captain of Sweden argument.

Maybe...just maybe, they gave it to him because he was the first European player to ever be drafted first overall in an NHL draft. That is a special honour, and reflects Sweden's hockey program.
I didn't even think of that, but there's an other excellent point. That on top of the points i raised and you can clearly see why they would go with sundin regardless of who's a better captain between sundin,lids, and fors. Alfredsson was out of the discussion being almost 2 years younger and with 5 years less of NHL experience to his name at the time.

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01-04-2013, 05:44 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
I hate to say "this" but basically "this". He has yet to address any of my arguments. He's clearly skipping around it but thinks he's being clever about it like we won't notice.
Of course you say "this" because it's a post you agree with.

On the other hand, the arguments your block has had against my argument has been laughable at best.
If Sundin was not the best captain deemed by the swedish coaches, he would not be captain.

So far you have not explained why Alfredsson should have been captain instead, you've been stating your reasons for why Sundin was.

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01-04-2013, 05:45 PM
  #109
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Looks like Alfredsson was the greater Captain.

Try harder next time.

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01-04-2013, 05:46 PM
  #110
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player a was drafted over player b, therefore player a is better.

this is something that can be true, but a better way to find out which player is better would be to individually analyze their skills.

saying sundin was a better captain because he captained a team alfie was on does not make him a better captain, just the one they chose. could that person be the better captain? yes, of course. you have to look at their captain abilities. sundin being the captain gives him the edge there, but you must also evaluate their captaincies elsewhere.

my opinion on the sweden captaincy point is probably not relevant, as i won't even pretend to know what was going on then, but could it be a case of giving it to who they thought the best scorer (most talented) forward on team was? a quick eliteprospects look-up shows me sundin outscored forsberg at the men's international level, and with sundin being older, he was a better candidate for the most talented and established forward on the team. the fact that sundin actually was the captain of his team also helped him get the nod over forsberg. it was also already brought up that sundin was the go to guy on his nhl team, and was used to that pressure/role. alfie, being the less established player and also a winger gets him passed over.
another reason he could have been chosen for the captaincy on team sweden over alfredsson could be their leading styles. alfie is a lead by example person, and is less vocal. over a long season, he can have consistent play and battle through injuries to inspire his team, but in a short international tourney, a more vocal leader gets the point across more quickly. i don't know if sundin was a more vocal leader, but i know alfie is a lead by example guy.

i'm a rookie user and can't vote, but even if i could i wouldn't. i'm too biased, being a sens fan.

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01-04-2013, 05:48 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Of course you say "this" because it's a post you agree with.

On the other hand, the arguments your block has had against my argument has been laughable at best.
If Sundin was not the best captain deemed by the swedish coaches, he would not be captain.

So far you have not explained why Alfredsson should have been captain instead, you've been stating your reasons for why Sundin was.
Alfredsson shouldn't have been captain of Sweden, it would have been disrespectful to Sundin since he was doing a good job and had been there star player for quite sometime. This doesn't mean he was a better captain.

Alexei Yashin captained Daniel Alfredsson on the Sens, does that mean he was a better captain?

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01-04-2013, 05:54 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Of course you say "this" because it's a post you agree with.

On the other hand, the arguments your block has had against my argument has been laughable at best.
If Sundin was not the best captain deemed by the swedish coaches, he would not be captain.

So far you have not explained why Alfredsson should have been captain instead, you've been stating your reasons for why Sundin was.
1) Thanks for pointing out the obvious captain. I wouldn't say "this" to something i disagree with.

2)He was deemed best captain by the sweden coaches at the time he was named captain. Which is at a time alfredsson was too inexperienced as well as younger, and wasn't in consideration. Doesn't mean that 5,10 years later, he's still a better captain. But then again, sundin being named captain in(was it 98? i forget) the late 90s/2000ish means he was a better captain in the late 90s...because of course he was, he was so much more experienced then alfredsson. Means nothing a decade later.

3)Alfredsson should not have been captain. That's why you don't hear me arguing for him. Not because he was an inferior captain, but because he was almost 2 years and 5 years behind the others. He only had a few seasons in the NHL under his belt when Sundin was named captain. And i would argue against stripping a captain. Therefore sundin would hold it by default until he isn't on the team.

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01-04-2013, 05:57 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
Alfredsson shouldn't have been captain of Sweden, it would have been disrespectful to Sundin since he was doing a good job and had been there star player for quite sometime. This doesn't mean he was a better captain.

Alexei Yashin captained Daniel Alfredsson on the Sens, does that mean he was a better captain?
I was so close to using yashin as an example. When cunneyworth left the sens, they needed a captain. Yashin being the player who'd been a star for longer took the C. They wouldn't give it to alfredsson until yashin was gone. The second yashin held out, they gave it alfredsson and never looked back. Had yashin never held out, and signed a 9 year deal with ottawa instead of the islanders, yashin would have probably still been captaining the senators. Doesn't mean yashin is a better captain then alfredsson.

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01-04-2013, 05:58 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Player A being captain over player B does not give any proof to player A being a better captain then player C.

Since alfredsson being young and less established obviously meant they wouldn't strip sundin of captaincy to give it you a younger less established player unless sundin did some god-awful thing. This is all very obvious.

So you chose to argue that sundin got captaincy over lidstrom who is of similar age to sundin, unlike the younger alfredsson.

I say that sundin getting captaincy over lidstrom has nothing to do with alfredsson.

When sundin originally got his C, alfredsson wasn't established enough to be in the conversation. Lidstrom and Forsberg were. They gave it to sundin over forsberg and lidstrom. None of this has anything to do with alfredsson though. And none of it is proof of anything, except for maybe that sweden coaches at the time believed sundin was a better captain then forsberg and lidstrom.

I would then argue that the fact lidstrom played behind yzerman, and forsberg behind sakic kind of hid them from the "great captain image" whereas sundin was THE MAN on his team. I think that might be one of the bigger reasons for sundin originally being named captain. He was used to being the guy,whereas lids and fors were both in the shadow of some of the greater leaders of all time at that specific point.

And since teams ever so rarely strips captains, it's well understood that alfredsson wouldn't be able to be captain until sundin retired, or wasn't good enough to make the team any more. None of this is any proof on which is a better captain.
Over the same time period in which Sundin was international captain, # of difference captains (95-06)

Canada
WC - 8/10
OG -3/3

Sundin
WC - 5/10 (only went 5 of the times, captained them all)
OG - 2/3

I couldn't find many on other international teams, but a reoccurring captainis hardly common, considering it was over a decade even further proves the argument.


Last edited by The Podium: 01-04-2013 at 06:04 PM.
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01-04-2013, 06:02 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Over the same time period in which Sundin was international captain, # of difference captains (95-06)

Canada
WC - 8/10
OG -3/3

Sundin
WC - 5/10
OG - 2/3

I couldn't find many on other international teams, but a reoccurring captainis hardly common, considering it was over a decade even further proves the argument.
And that proves Sundin was a good captain which is not what's being debated. Please remember what the discussion is.

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01-04-2013, 06:02 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Over the same time period in which Sundin was international captain, # of difference captains (95-06)

Canada
WC - 8/10
OG -3/3

I couldn't find many on other international teams, but a reoccurring captainis hardly common, considering it was over a decade even further proves the argument.
Canada has more of a revolving door of talent because they have such a big pool of players.

Canada,to my knowledge, hasn't stripped a returning Captain. Was it not gretzky in 1998, lemieux in 2002(because gretzky was retired), sakic in 2006(because lemieux had retired) and niedermayer in 2010(because sakic had retired). In 2014, it will be someone new because niedermayer will be retired. It will probably be crosby if he's healthy.

That explains the different captains. If any of those captains had returns, they would have stayed captain barring some big thing.


Last edited by jbeck5: 01-04-2013 at 06:07 PM.
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01-04-2013, 06:06 PM
  #117
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And that proves Sundin was a good captain which is not what's being debated. Please remember what the discussion is.
Read the quoted post before you comment....

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01-04-2013, 06:13 PM
  #118
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Read the quoted post before you comment....
Read it again and nothing has changed. We're comparing Daniel Alfredsson to Mats Sundin, not Mats Sundin to other international captains.

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01-04-2013, 06:19 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
Read it again and nothing has changed. We're comparing Daniel Alfredsson to Mats Sundin, not Mats Sundin to other international captains.
'rarely stripped as captain', Canada barely had a returning captIns over a decade. Was o show that if alfredsson deserved it he would've been captain.

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01-04-2013, 06:24 PM
  #120
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'rarely stripped as captain', Canada barely had a returning captIns over a decade. Was o show that if alfredsson deserved it he would've been captain.
You Sundin defenders: your arguments are invalid as the fans have already spoken and Alfredsson was the greater Captain.

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01-04-2013, 06:25 PM
  #121
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You Sundin defenders: your arguments are invalid as the fans have already spoken and Alfredsson was the greater Captain.
Ok that's too bad. Guess I'll change my opinion then.

Hasek became the 2nd best goalie ever in the HF history poll because one of the voters put him at 7th place overall. I think we have all learnt to take HF polls with laughter instead of tears.

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01-04-2013, 06:32 PM
  #122
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Sundin. I think the lack of a season has deranged some of the minds around here recently, but this poll done before would've easily been in favour of Sundin. For some reason, lately people have been crapping on him in polls and threads, for example the Iginla vs Sundin thread, Iggy was killing him in the latest poll, but the exact same one was done a year ago and they were neck and neck, tied. I'm pretty sure I've seen this particular discussion before too and Sundin usually was the overwhelming favourite.

Sundin was just someone who embodied leadership and had that aura of a leader around him, and he was all class too.

I respect Alfie's career, but never really got that same leader vibe from him. Always seemed like more of a secondary guy in my eyes.

Ask Swedish fans what they think and it's not even close. Sundin is a legend in Sweden, can't say the same for Alfie.

Quote:
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Ok that's too bad. Guess I'll change my opinion then.

Hasek became the 2nd best goalie ever in the HF history poll because one of the voters put him at 7th place overall. I think we have all learnt to take HF polls with laughter instead of tears.
Agreed, especially since opinions around here change so often.

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01-04-2013, 06:42 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Ok that's too bad. Guess I'll change my opinion then.

Hasek became the 2nd best goalie ever in the HF history poll because one of the voters put him at 7th place overall. I think we have all learnt to take HF polls with laughter instead of tears.
Then why do you care about this thread/poll so much? As soon as Sundin is losing its "LOL rezults dunt mater becuz it juss HF".

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01-04-2013, 06:43 PM
  #124
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Then why do you care about this thread/poll so much? As soon as Sundin is losing its "LOL rezults dunt mater becuz it juss HF".
I can't argue in a thread and then not take the result of an opinionbased thread as a fact?

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01-04-2013, 06:46 PM
  #125
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I can't argue in a thread and then not take the result of an opinionbased thread as a fact?
Thats not what i said.

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