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Better captain: Sundin or Alfredsson?

View Poll Results: Who was/is the best captain?
Mats Sundin 89 43.20%
Daniel Alfredsson 117 56.80%
Voters: 206. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-05-2013, 07:32 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by x94Galchenyuk94x View Post
This is basically an Ottawa vs Toronto thread. Lock it up.
Don't believe there's any rules about Ottawa versus Toronto threads...

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01-05-2013, 07:57 AM
  #152
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To be honest. Theirs not much difference between the two but! (This is a big but). One of them sticked with his team in the end and the other didn't. Loyalty. And that's why Alfi is the better captain. AINEC
If I recall correctly, Sundin only signed with Vancouver after Burke had joined the Leafs and stated that he wasn't going to bring Sundin back.

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01-05-2013, 08:25 AM
  #153
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Alfredsson

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01-05-2013, 08:37 AM
  #154
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If I recall correctly, Sundin only signed with Vancouver after Burke had joined the Leafs and stated that he wasn't going to bring Sundin back.
You do recall correctly. Burke stated that he'd shut the door on Mats.

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01-05-2013, 02:52 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by x94Galchenyuk94x View Post
This is basically an Ottawa vs Toronto thread. Lock it up.
I never understood why people say this in a thread especially if they don't have any authority to do so. Looks stupid

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01-05-2013, 07:00 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by x94Galchenyuk94x View Post
This is basically an Ottawa vs Toronto thread. Lock it up.
**** the PO-Lice!

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01-05-2013, 07:02 PM
  #157
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Sundin.

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01-05-2013, 07:29 PM
  #158
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Sundin got the C with Sweden over Alfie because a) Sundin is almost two years older than Alfie, and b) Sundin had been wearing the C in Toronto for three seasons longer than Alfie had worn the C in Ottawa.

Likely had little to do with Sundin being a better leader.

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01-05-2013, 09:06 PM
  #159
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Sundin got the C with Sweden over Alfie because a) Sundin is almost two years older than Alfie, and b) Sundin had been wearing the C in Toronto for three seasons longer than Alfie had worn the C in Ottawa.

Likely had little to do with Sundin being a better leader.
Well... how did "older" get him preference if experience and leadership weren't part of that (Garpenlov had that on both of them, as did Andersson and Dahlen), and I'm not sure how being captain of a team for 3 years longer than a guy less than 2 years younger than you even points to a possible relative deficit in the leadership category. But Sundin was made captain of Sweden before Toronto, in Alfredsson's rookie NHL year (which happens to have come after the first tournament he was invited to represent Sweden internationally), just to get those details straight.

Let me back up there and put that another way. By the time Alfredsson even made the NHL (and had only been asked to represent his country internationally once by that point), a fellow countryman less than two years his elder had already earned the captaincy of one of the most important teams in hockey history. I hate the Leafs (check the avatar), but respect where respect is due. That was a big deal, like Koivu being made captain that same year in Montreal.

There's enough support to argue that Alfredsson was near or equal in leadership terms, largely due to the older age he has been able to play to and the accumulated years of captaincy that come with that (if Alfie retired at the same age as Sundin, they would have both been 10X captains of their respective teams), but if personal taste and fabricated notions that age alone dictates who earns the captaincy of Swedish international teams are essentially the strongest cases to be made for actually considering Alfredsson above Sundin in these terms, well, I don't think that's the strongest footing to stand on.

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01-05-2013, 09:21 PM
  #160
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Obviously I voted for Sundin and part of the reason is I'm a Maple Leafs fan. However there is more it then just that reason. When Sundin was a Maple Leaf he was always there when they needed a goal to either tie the game or win the game. I believe he is 2nd all time in career overtime goals and would be 1st if Jaromir Jagr didn't return from the KHL. Plus he was the captain of Sweden when they won the Olympic Gold in 2006, the first ever European NHL captain, only Swedish player to score 500 NHL goals, selected to 9 NHL All Star Games, (Captain of the World team in 2002) won the first ever Mark Messier Leadership Award in 2008 and is the Maple Leafs all time leader in goals and points, which was originally held by Darryl Sittler for a long time.

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01-05-2013, 09:31 PM
  #161
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Sundin. Alfredsson's supposed leadership and class is so overblown it's not even funny.

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01-05-2013, 09:56 PM
  #162
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Sundin. Alfredsson's supposed leadership and class is so overblown it's not even funny.
This video shows why Alfredsson has no class.


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01-05-2013, 10:40 PM
  #163
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This video shows why Alfredsson has no class.

You're absolutely right. This video shows he has no class. All it shows is he's frustration and looking for a way to spark his team. Too bad we are having a poll about whether or not Alfredsson is classy or not instead of whether he is a better Captain.

Oh wait...


I was going to post a video of Sundin frustrated in the SCF, but it doesn't exist.

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01-06-2013, 06:25 AM
  #164
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There was a reason Sundin was captain when Forsberg, Alfredsson, Lidstrom were all on the same team.

Sundin without a doubt.

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01-06-2013, 06:51 AM
  #165
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Fans arguing over who was the better captain is like two blind guys arguing over who can draw the prettiest rainbow

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01-06-2013, 07:19 AM
  #166
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Alfredsson

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Old
01-06-2013, 09:24 AM
  #167
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There was a reason Sundin was captain when Forsberg, Alfredsson, Lidstrom were all on the same team.

Sundin without a doubt.
This...

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01-06-2013, 09:29 AM
  #168
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Sundin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vippe View Post
There was a reason Sundin was captain when Forsberg, Alfredsson, Lidstrom were all on the same team.

Sundin without a doubt.

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01-06-2013, 09:52 AM
  #169
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Well... how did "older" get him preference if experience and leadership weren't part of that (Garpenlov had that on both of them, as did Andersson and Dahlen), and I'm not sure how being captain of a team for 3 years longer than a guy less than 2 years younger than you even points to a possible relative deficit in the leadership category. But Sundin was made captain of Sweden before Toronto, in Alfredsson's rookie NHL year (which happens to have come after the first tournament he was invited to represent Sweden internationally), just to get those details straight.

Let me back up there and put that another way. By the time Alfredsson even made the NHL (and had only been asked to represent his country internationally once by that point), a fellow countryman less than two years his elder had already earned the captaincy of one of the most important teams in hockey history. I hate the Leafs (check the avatar), but respect where respect is due. That was a big deal, like Koivu being made captain that same year in Montreal.

There's enough support to argue that Alfredsson was near or equal in leadership terms, largely due to the older age he has been able to play to and the accumulated years of captaincy that come with that (if Alfie retired at the same age as Sundin, they would have both been 10X captains of their respective teams), but if personal taste and fabricated notions that age alone dictates who earns the captaincy of Swedish international teams are essentially the strongest cases to be made for actually considering Alfredsson above Sundin in these terms, well, I don't think that's the strongest footing to stand on.
You need to read the thread. Leafs fans have been using the fact that Sundin captained team Sweden almost exclusively as evidence that he was a better captain. Sens fans have been arguing that it proves nothing since Sundin was established before Alfredsson so there was never an opportunity for Alfie to become captain since stripping Sundin of his captaincy would have made no sense.

This thread is getting pretty darn repetitive.

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01-06-2013, 12:06 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
You need to read the thread. Leafs fans have been using the fact that Sundin captained team Sweden almost exclusively as evidence that he was a better captain. Sens fans have been arguing that it proves nothing since Sundin was established before Alfredsson so there was never an opportunity for Alfie to become captain since stripping Sundin of his captaincy would have made no sense.

This thread is getting pretty darn repetitive.
Actually, it's just the strongest piece of evidence in support of Sundin - and one for which Sundin supporters have no rebuttal of equivalent weight. As such, you shouldn't be surprised to see a lot of people drop it as part of their opinion if they only post once in the thread. It's hardly surprising to see Alfredsson supporters trying to attack the strongest evidence against their horse as it's slapped in their face, and less surprising that people will continue to bring it up. On that note, I'm surprised that more people haven't brought up that the NHL has rewarded leaders with the Mark Messier trophy for leadership since '07, and Sundin is the only one of these two guys who has his name on it.

As for whether or not "stripping" Sundin of his captaincy would have made sense, you and the rest of the Sens fans should make yourselves aware that when Sundin first got a C on his jersey, he shared the responsibilities with 9 year NHL veteran Calle Johansson in '95/96. They actually did "take" Sundin's C away for the Nagano Olympics (making Johansson the lone captain). And Sweden had recent history of handing the C out where they saw fit leading up to that. Berglund had been the WC captain for a couple of years, and was still on the team when Tim Jonsson joined and was made captain of the WC team in '94/95.

So there's plenty of precedent for Sweden choosing their captains as they see fit (as opposed to being some default honour that can't be changed), and absolutely no reason to believe that they wouldn't have gone with someone who was believed to be a better leader if one was available. We know all the players available over the decade that followed, and that it took Sundin's retirement before they even started thinking about who else should lead the squad.

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01-06-2013, 12:47 PM
  #171
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Alfredsson may have the King Clancy, but does he have a Lays Potato Chip Leadership award? I thought not.

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01-06-2013, 12:53 PM
  #172
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Sundin - pure class!

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01-06-2013, 12:57 PM
  #173
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Head to head in playoff series:

Sundin 4
Alfredsson 0

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01-06-2013, 12:59 PM
  #174
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Sundin - pure class!
Well I'm sure you don't really want to go there. The Bruins had about as much class as Al Qaeda back then and Alfredsson hasn't been much better throughout his career.

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01-06-2013, 01:05 PM
  #175
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Well I'm sure you don't really want to go there. The Bruins had about as much class as Al Qaeda back then and Alfredsson hasn't been much better throughout his career.
Exactly. But if you're callling Alfie classless based on two plays, you have to call Sundin, too. Plus, Tucker had very little class either so Sundin doesn't get a free pass based on that.

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