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Old
12-26-2012, 12:51 PM
  #1
nye
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Oilers Scouting

fm a Jim Matheson article in the Edm Journal:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sport...046/story.html

Quote:
There’s no wondrous talent like Crosby in the 2013 draft pool of talent, but if the NHL season is scrapped next month and we do get a new CBA in by July, for example, then you would think there would be a lottery again for the draft order in 2013 as there was eight years ago. But who really knows? The teams haven’t been notified.

“You can’t just give the pick to Edmonton again. Nobody’s going to agree to that,” said Murray, who was chief scout for the Kings in 2005 when they struck gold and selected forward Anze Kopitar and then goalie Jonathan Quick later in the draft.

“But, how or what or where they would take things with a draft, nobody has an idea. From a scout’s point of view, if they cancel the season, we’d like to know by Feb. 1, so we can focus in on who you have to make a decision on.”

The Kings got the 11th overall pick in the lottery and called out the Slovenian centre Kopitar. After Crosby, he might have been the best player out of that lottery group.

“Usually in the second half of a season, you can start to zero in on players if you know you’re going to be picking early or picking late. Last time was a mess because with no league and a lottery coming up, you had to continue to look at everybody,” said Murray.

“Last time, when the league was cancelled some teams cut back their budgets for scouting. I think that’s why we got Kopitar at No. 11. Dave Taylor (then the Kings GM) and the ownership allowed us to keep scouting full-bore. We had Anze at No. 3 on our list.

“He wasn’t a surprise to us, but some teams weren’t allowed to keep going to the events. He wasn’t at the world under-20 because Slovenia didn’t qualify. He wasn’t at the A pool for the under-18 worlds because Slovenia was in B pool. There weren’t a lot of people (scouts) at the B pool. He was in a junior league in Sweden, but only had a cup of coffee in the men’s (Elite) league there.

“You had to do your homework to know he was your guy and our European scouts did a great job with Anze,” said Murray.

Button said some NHL teams have already cut back on their scouting budgets this year.

“I wouldn’t say (they) eliminated it, but limited it. Same thing happened in 1994. Lots of teams didn’t get up and running until after the CBA was settled (on July 11, 1995),” said Button. “I was working in Dallas then, and we never cut back. Financially, our owner, Norm Green, was having some difficulties, but he told us not to stop (scouting). Same with our president Jim Lites. We drafted Jarome Iginla that year … we had lots of viewings, but other teams weren’t so sure (Iginla was subsequently dealt to the Calgary Flames for Joe Nieuwendyk — the league got up and running July 20 after the lockout).”

In 2005, after the owners and the players ended their battle, every team started with three balls in the Crosby lottery, but lost one or two based on playoff appearances over the preceding four years and the number of times teams got the first overall draft pick. The Pittsburgh Penguins, Columbus Blue Jackets, New York Rangers and Buffalo Sabres had three balls. The Blue Jackets wound up with the sixth pick, the Rangers with No. 16 and Buffalo No. 13. The Oilers had two lottery balls and wound up with the No. 25 pick, taking Andrew Cogliano.

I've been away for a time. Sorry if this discussion is redundant, but does anyone know what the Oilers are doing in the scouting department? I would hope they would add people to cover more territory or have better depth. It sounds like ideal conditions for a couple of steals; see Kopitar and Quick.

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12-26-2012, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nye View Post
fm a Jim Matheson article in the Edm Journal:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sport...046/story.html




I've been away for a time. Sorry if this discussion is redundant, but does anyone know what the Oilers are doing in the scouting department? I would hope they would add people to cover more territory or have better depth. It sounds like ideal conditions for a couple of steals; see Kopitar and Quick.
I'm not sure about current scouting, but if you strip away the 1st overall picks and look at the body of work, it doesn't stack up too well against the better organizations in the league. I wonder though if it's the scouting, or management's decisions at the draft table that are the problem(s)?

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12-26-2012, 02:57 PM
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I've been hoping for good things from the 31 and high 60's picks from the last few years. They still have time.

Eberle at 22 is looking like a good bit of business though.

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12-26-2012, 05:55 PM
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I wonder if we still have a full scouting compliment? Id never heard this before but it does make sense. Even with only one lottery ball we might be able to draft some ringers!

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12-26-2012, 06:16 PM
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I'd scout if they pay my trips.

Is that the question?

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12-26-2012, 06:39 PM
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Most draft picks dont turn out. Its the nature of the business, and failure is always going to be easier to question, because there are always going to be failures.

As outsiders, we dont really know which end is up when evaluating our scouting/development system.

However, failure over a long period of time, with coaches, scouts, equipment guys, and everyone else being turned over, sometimes several times, one then has to look at what has remained constant. That just might be the problem.


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12-27-2012, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
However, failure over a long period of time, with coaches, scouts, equipment guys, and everyone else being turned over, sometimes several times, one then has to look at what has remained constant. That just might be the problem.
Cut Joey some slack...

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12-27-2012, 03:48 AM
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To the original quoted story above by the OP.... I wondered the same.

Just how much have many teams cut back on their scouting operations? Have some teams spent less time/money scouting overseas? Have some teams stopped scouting entirely?

I think it's true that a shrewd owner would see that this is a deep draft and tell their management staff to seize the opportunity to scout as widely as possible. That's one area where definite advantages can be attained just by maintaining the scouting budget... imagine what a concerted effort to scout even more thoroughly could do... could definitely pull off some steals... especially in the 2nd round and beyond.

Hopefully Katz and the Oilers are following that mindset.

Does anyone know if NHL Central Scouting is still operating in a "business as usual" situation... or have they likely seen a cut back in resources as well?

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12-27-2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Does anyone know if NHL Central Scouting is still operating in a "business as usual" situation... or have they likely seen a cut back in resources as well?

That's a good question. I'd guess that yes they are. Sounds like many teams will count on them if the season is cancelled.

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12-27-2012, 11:05 AM
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EDM hasnt cut back on their scouting, would be nice to find that legit 2C or top 2 big dman.

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12-27-2012, 11:18 AM
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EDM hasnt cut back on their scouting

Have you read or heard a report to that effect? Can you share?

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12-27-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
EDM hasnt cut back on their scouting, would be nice to find that legit 2C or top 2 big dman.
Even better would be watching the Oil take the best player available, and not going off the board to pick some slug, like usual!

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12-27-2012, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
That's a good question. I'd guess that yes they are. Sounds like many teams will count on them if the season is cancelled.
That is pretty much speculation. There is no real evidence of that. You would be a fool to not scout the players yourselves.

Chances are 50/50 that Stu already has a beach house on the Mayan Riviera.

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12-27-2012, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Gone View Post
Even better would be watching the Oil take the best player available, and not going off the board to pick some slug, like usual!
Huh?

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12-27-2012, 12:02 PM
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I think every Organization will toot there horn on the successful picks. I mean it isn't like the Kings drafted Lauri Tukonen 11th overall the year before right?

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12-27-2012, 12:10 PM
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Huh?
Outside of 1st round picks there really isnt much to show for...

Kahira and Moroz were ranked much lower by scouting agencies
Musil (Girmaldi, Jenner and Rattie were ranked in that 31 area), Perhonen, Hamilton, Marincin, Pitlick, Lander, Hesketh, Abney, Motin, Cornet, Plante, Nash etc were all no names before we drafted them..

Hartikainen is probably the only later round pick that might amount to something..
Musil and Marincin are the 2 others that we have some hope for.

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12-27-2012, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
I think every Organization will toot there horn on the successful picks. I mean it isn't like the Kings drafted Lauri Tukonen 11th overall the year before right?
not to mention Hickey at #4 and Teubert at #13

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12-27-2012, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Outside of 1st round picks there really isnt much to show for...

Kahira and Moroz were ranked much lower by scouting agencies
Musil (Girmaldi, Jenner and Rattie were ranked in that 31 area), Perhonen, Hamilton, Marincin, Pitlick, Lander, Hesketh, Abney, Motin, Cornet, Plante, Nash etc were all no names before we drafted them..

Hartikainen is probably the only later round pick that might amount to something..
Musil and Marincin are the 2 others that we have some hope for.
You do realize that guys like Musil and Pitlick were ranked HIGHER than where we got them right? Sure the organization has made bad picks, but everyone does. And no, a 22 year old, selected in the 5th round, that scored 24 goals in the AHL last year is not a bad pick

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12-27-2012, 01:07 PM
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You do realize that guys like Musil and Pitlick were ranked HIGHER than where we got them right? Sure the organization has made bad picks, but everyone does. And no, a 22 year old, selected in the 5th round, that scored 24 goals in the AHL last year is not a bad pick
Cornet?? Isnt he in ECHL this year and pointless in 8 AHL games?

Also, Rattie and Jenner were ranked ahead of Musil by almost everyone..

After day 1... no fan or hockey expert predicted EDM to select Pitlick as the first pick on day 2.

Our scouting has be decent but it isnt as godly as fans here make it to be.

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12-27-2012, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Cornet?? Isnt he in ECHL this year and pointless in 8 AHL games?

Also, Rattie and Jenner were ranked ahead of Musil by almost everyone..

After day 1... no fan or hockey expert predicted EDM to select Pitlick as the first pick on day 2.

Our scouting has be decent but it isnt as godly as fans here make it to be.
Our scouting (or management decisions) have been terrible. How many teams keep going off the board in early rounds over the last several years with picks like Plante (gee the Oilers though Plante made Alzner look good instead of the other way around), Nash (who wanted no part of the Oilers), Moroz, Pitlick etc. etc.

Time for KLowe to find another fall guy(s) .... cause you know he'll never pay the price.

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12-27-2012, 01:47 PM
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Cut Joey some slack...
lol ... awesome

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12-27-2012, 01:53 PM
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Our scouting (or management decisions) have been terrible. How many teams keep going off the board in early rounds over the last several years with picks like Plante (gee the Oilers though Plante made Alzner look good instead of the other way around), Nash (who wanted no part of the Oilers), Moroz, Pitlick etc. etc.

Time for KLowe to find another fall guy(s) .... cause you know he'll never pay the price.
well to be fair EDM is not the only organization that makes these picks.. a case can be made for each team.. 3 guys picked right before Musil in RD 1= Phillips, Jensen and Rakell .. Dont see any of them being as a good as Eberle anytime soon..
same with Moroz. Pearson, Motteau, Collberg.. I would have been equally unthrilled with any of these picks..
Coyle, Nelson, Etem instead of Pitlick would have been meh as well.

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12-27-2012, 01:55 PM
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That's a good question. I'd guess that yes they are. Sounds like many teams will count on them if the season is cancelled.
Actually last lockout a ton of teams and Central cut scouts hours severley that's why some guys like Anze Kopitar slipped as far as he did. There were a lot of euro scouts that were frozen out.

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12-27-2012, 02:22 PM
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That is pretty much speculation. There is no real evidence of that.

Except what happened last time, which is mentioned in the quote in the OP...

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12-27-2012, 02:56 PM
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Except what happened last time, which is mentioned in the quote in the OP...
A scout for the Kings says some teams cut their scouting.

That is pretty vague.

How many teams are some?

How much did they cut their scouting?

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