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Luongo: The Neverending Story

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01-06-2013, 03:20 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
FLA got 94 points last year. The playoff cut-off was 92 points. They would have made it regardless, division win or not.
All I was saying if the Panthers happen to win their division again then they won't be in a battle with the Maple Leafs between 4th - 8th place in the Eastern Conference. So it won't mean Mike Gillis can't put Brian Burke and Dale Tallon up against each other in a bidding war for Luongo to get more assets then what Luongo would be worth from either team.

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01-06-2013, 03:21 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Two games. Schneider took two starts from Luongo, and he's stolen his job....only on HF. If you think, if we keep both, even until the start of the season, that Luongo will just accept the media's view that Schneider is our guaranteed starter, or is it far more likely he whips himself into better shape and fights for the starting position? I can't comment on his time in Florida, but when he's been pushed internally here, he's stepped up.

Top prospects, and whether your team wants to move them, is different for every team. Florida's top prospects beat the pants off of most teams, and we're not asking for the Markstroms, the Huberdeaus or the Gudbransons, but your second tier prospects, the likely but not blue chippers. You don't need a goalie, you have salary and possibly cap concerns, certainly don't accept our proposals if you don't like them, but don't tell us our interpretation of a contract for our player is wrong because you don't like it or don't understand it.
So you think the Canucks wouldn't want to start building around Cory Schneider at this point? Clearly one of the best young goalies in the game and, at worst, just as good as Luongo/cheaper?

Like, if you're the GM, wouldn't you really want to trade Luongo right now?

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01-06-2013, 03:21 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Staal was incredibly more valuable.
He CLEARLY is a scoring-line C on any other team and any other team would've loved to have him.

Staal is also only 24 years old; Luongo, on the other hand, is turning 34 in 3 months.

This is not the same at all.


It wasn't meant to draw a parallel, only to illustrate that where a talent plays on a depth chart isn't indicative of said player's worth.



Luongo also has his own record of accomplishments. Teams know that he is a legit starter, and one that isn't easily matched statistically over the entire breadth of his career. You don't need to "sell" Luongo to anyone.



Quote:
There are like, what, maybe a handful of teams interested in Luongo at all, if that?

All you need is one. And maybe another to have them play off each other.


Quote:
From the Panthers perspective, why should we even give up a top prospect at all? One of our top prospects is arguably the best goalie in the world not in the NHL yet (Markstrom).


If FLA feels Markstrom is ready now, they won't. If they feel he is 2-3 years out, they are players.



Quote:
The Canucks have a necessity to move Luongo. The Panthers don't have a necessity to acquire a goalie; it would be a luxury.

The Panthers are not giving up upcoming centers like Bjugstad and Shore when they really need centers, and it's difficult to get top free agents to come here. They're building around guys like that, not trading them for 34-year-old goaltenders.


GMs don't think this way. If you are being gifted an opportunity to improve your roster with an elite talent, you would be remiss to pass it up. Improving is not a "luxury", it's a mandate.



The fact that it's difficult to have FAs come there is another reason they would be interested in Luongo. How many opportunities like this come up for them? Or will come up for them?



For the record, I can absolutely see them build around guys like Bjugstad. Which is why I think he won't be dealt. But the next tier should be, and that's Shore. So they can keep their best, and deal from the next tier to improve themselves now.

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01-06-2013, 03:22 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
All I was saying if the Panthers happen to win their division again then they won't be in a battle with the Maple Leafs between 4th - 8th place in the Eastern Conference. So it won't mean Mike Gillis can't put Brian Burke and Dale Tallon up against each other in a bidding war for Luongo to get more assets then what Luongo would be worth from either team.
And, if that's the case, Burke would probably give in first, not Tallon. Because Burke doesn't have a guy like Markstrom waiting in the wings.

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01-06-2013, 03:22 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Staal was incredibly more valuable.
He CLEARLY is a scoring-line C on any other team and any other team would've loved to have him.

Staal is also only 24 years old; Luongo, on the other hand, is turning 34 in 3 months.

This is not the same at all.

There are like, what, maybe a handful of teams interested in Luongo at all, if that? That doesn't make things better for the Canucks either, in terms of leverage.

From the Panthers perspective, why should we even give up a top prospect at all? One of our top prospects is arguably the best goalie in the world not in the NHL yet (Markstrom).

The Canucks have a necessity to move Luongo. The Panthers don't have a necessity to acquire a goalie; it would be a luxury.

The Panthers are not giving up upcoming centers like Bjugstad and Shore when they really need centers, and it's difficult to get top free agents to come here. They're building around guys like that, not trading them for 34-year-old goaltenders.
Like Bob McKenzie speculated in a trade with Florida, Weiss (UFA to be) could be included (particularly if resigning him seems improbable). I would be fine with a package around Weiss+mid prospect

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01-06-2013, 03:24 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
On the Canucks, because they have a different #1, sure. They have to move Lu, and 5.3m doesn't make sense to retain. However, on its own, his deal is so good it was made illegal. That's not spin, that's why they had the CBA feud they did over variance and term.


Depends on what you define as a top prospect. The leverage is Luongo himself. The ability of the player himself. It makes no difference if he is lower on the depth chart. Was Staal valued less because he was a 3C in Pitt? Luongo's record is strong and he is a known name around the league. His statistical record puts him in a select group. That's all the leverage one needs.
It was a great deal for the first few years. He already played those with the Canucks. The deal gets worse each year. Sorry but your sell job has serious flaws

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01-06-2013, 03:24 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
So you think the Canucks wouldn't want to start building around Cory Schneider at this point? Clearly one of the best young goalies in the game and, at worst, just as good as Luongo/cheaper?

Like, if you're the GM, wouldn't you really want to trade Luongo right now?
Canuck fan here wanting to KEEP Luongo!

There is little risk keeping him, we have the cap space, we have 2 summers to buy him out if needed, why not have a great goalie playing every night and that incredible insurance?

The ONLY reason to trade him is to improve the team now or going forward because we get a really good offer.


Anyone that thinks our goalies would feud or there would be drama doesn't know them.

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01-06-2013, 03:25 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
It wasn't meant to draw a parallel, only to illustrate that where a talent plays on a depth chart isn't indicative of said player's worth.



Luongo also has his own record of accomplishments. Teams know that he is a legit starter, and one that isn't easily matched statistically over the entire breadth of his career. You don't need to "sell" Luongo to anyone.






All you need is one. And maybe another to have them play off each other.






If FLA feels Markstrom is ready now, they won't. If they feel he is 2-3 years out, they are players.







GMs don't think this way. If you are being gifted an opportunity to improve your roster with an elite talent, you would be remiss to pass it up. Improving is not a "luxury", it's a mandate.



The fact that it's difficult to have FAs come there is another reason they would be interested in Luongo. How many opportunities like this come up for them? Or will come up for them?



For the record, I can absolutely see them build around guys like Bjugstad. Which is why I think he won't be dealt. But the next tier should be, and that's Shore. So they can keep their best, and deal from the next tier to improve themselves now.

And Luongo would improve the Panthers by how much, exactly? Probably not enough to give up top prospects.

Goaltending wasn't an issue here last year.

Acquiring Luongo would only improve the state of the franchise if they were able to acquire him for spare parts. Bjugstad is not a spare part, and neither is Shore, for that matter.

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01-06-2013, 03:26 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
It was a great deal for the first few years. He already played those with the Canucks. The deal gets worse each year. Sorry but your sell job has serious flaws



As long as his cap hit is artificially lower than it's supposed to be, it's a great contract. Because you can't do that anymore. It's unique, and exploits the loopholes so much so that it was made illegal just now.


That's not a sell job, that's fact based on what just transpired. Infinite term and variance 2 of the 5 major CBA functions outlined by TSN. They weren't fighting over nothing.

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01-06-2013, 03:28 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by gecko002 View Post
Like Bob McKenzie speculated in a trade with Florida, Weiss (UFA to be) could be included (particularly if resigning him seems improbable). I would be fine with a package around Weiss+mid prospect
That would actually make sense.

If Weiss tells management he won't re-sign (which he probably won't, really), it would make some sense for both teams.

But Weiss has never been that kind of guy.

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01-06-2013, 03:30 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
And Luongo would improve the Panthers by how much, exactly? Probably not enough to give up top prospects.

Goaltending wasn't an issue here last year.

Acquiring Luongo would only improve the state of the franchise if they were able to acquire him for spare parts. Bjugstad is not a spare part, and neither is Shore, for that matter.


It's because you, and other FLA fans view Theodore as a constant, and he has been anything but over the course of his career.


Luongo gets you past the 1st round last year. He gives you a definite edge against all goalies in your division. (Ward would come close). That, coupled with your defensive system _ensures_ you build on last year, instead of just banking on Theodore and hoping.



Of course I know FLA and every other team wants Luongo for spare parts. This isn't news.

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01-06-2013, 03:30 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
And, if that's the case, Burke would probably give in first, not Tallon. Because Burke doesn't have a guy like Markstrom waiting in the wings.
Even though he didn't have a great year last year I still haven't given up on James Reimer. Until he got injured against Montreal Reimer was playing very well like he did in his rookie season of 2010-2011 when he got 20 wins. If anything at least he has more experience then Markstrom.

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01-06-2013, 03:30 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
Canuck fan here wanting to KEEP Luongo!

There is little risk keeping him, we have the cap space, we have 2 summers to buy him out if needed, why not have a great goalie playing every night and that incredible insurance?

The ONLY reason to trade him is to improve the team now or going forward because we get a really good offer.


Anyone that thinks our goalies would feud or there would be drama doesn't know them.
Although I agree with you, there is one scenario that makes things messy.

In theory, say Canucks keep Luongo / Schneider tandem. Schneider stumbles out of the gate, Luongo comes in and starts picking up wins. Are the Canucks really going to trade him? This could potentially create the dreaded "goalie controversy."

Just a scenario.

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01-06-2013, 03:33 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
It's because you, and other FLA fans view Theodore as a constant, and he has been anything but over the course of his career.


Luongo gets you past the 1st round last year. He gives you a definite edge against all goalies in your division. (Ward would come close). That, coupled with your defensive system _ensures_ you build on last year, instead of just banking on Theodore and hoping.



Of course I know FLA and every other team wants Luongo for spare parts. This isn't news.
You can prove this, how?

Also, the Panthers have a great defensive system now?

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01-06-2013, 03:33 PM
  #540
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And, if that's the case, Burke would probably give in first, not Tallon. Because Burke doesn't have a guy like Markstrom waiting in the wings.
The flat out truth of the matter is that T.O needs Luongo. T.O needs to be relevant again. Their goaltending is the weakest aspect of the team. If Burke is smart he will try as hard as he can to get Luongo in T.O. The leafs will be nothing and go nowhere until they address their weakness in goal. They've done a great job fooling their fans on how great their young goalies are but the haven't been a successful team since Belfour. Goaltending is everything. They need it.

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01-06-2013, 03:34 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by Kessely Snipes View Post
Although I agree with you, there is one scenario that makes things messy.

In theory, say Canucks keep Luongo / Schneider tandem. Schneider stumbles out of the gate, Luongo comes in and starts picking up wins. Are the Canucks really going to trade him? This could potentially create the dreaded "goalie controversy."

Just a scenario.
If that happens I'd trade Schneider.

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01-06-2013, 03:34 PM
  #542
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Even though he didn't have a great year last year I still haven't given up on James Reimer. Until he got injured against Montreal Reimer was playing very well like he did in his rookie season of 2010-2011 when he got 20 wins. If anything at least he has more experience then Markstrom.
If there's a team that would look like an instant playoff team with a consistent goaltender, it's Toronto.

If one team overpays (which I don't think any team will, really), it would probably be Toronto.

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01-06-2013, 03:35 PM
  #543
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Although I agree with you, there is one scenario that makes things messy.

In theory, say Canucks keep Luongo / Schneider tandem. Schneider stumbles out of the gate, Luongo comes in and starts picking up wins. Are the Canucks really going to trade him? This could potentially create the dreaded "goalie controversy."

Just a scenario.
Loungo hold the cards, he's got no trade clause, if Canucks refuse to trade him to the team he wants to go too, he stays in Vancouver this year. Next year the Canucks will be forced to buy him out, he will then be a UFA with right to sign with any one of his choosing.

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01-06-2013, 03:37 PM
  #544
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By the way, I don't view Theodore as a constant.

I'm well aware that the odds are he and Clemmensen will regress.
I'm not expecting the Panthers to make the playoffs in this shortened season. Luongo, however, wouldn't change that.

Every team has a window to compete, and the Panthers window isn't this year.

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01-06-2013, 03:38 PM
  #545
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You can prove this, how?

Also, the Panthers have a great defensive system now?

C'mon Erick, are you equating Clemmenson to Luongo now? Luongo would not have impacted your goaltending in the playoffs? I know it's a hypothetical, but it does call for some reason on your part.



The panthers played well defensively under Dineen. From what I saw anyways. Their 227 GA was the least in the division as well.



But listen, I don't want to "sell" Luongo to you. I know you want him at a bargain bin price (or not at all), but assuming something __fair__ goes down between these clubs, it's not outside the realm of reason that Luongo ends up back in FLA for more than you thought it would cost.

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01-06-2013, 03:38 PM
  #546
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Gillis is a smart GM, he clearly isn't going to drop Luongo in a bad deal to avoid a little media attention.

Luongo and Schneider are really good friends, and have a perfect working relationship. They check their egos at the door, and both remain positive no matter what. It's clear Schneider is our guy and Lu will be moved when the time is right, but Gillis has the luxury of having a rock solid team that can wait for the right deal.

Florida and Toronto are not the only two interested teams right now. Edmonton has shown significant interest, and Luongo could be interested in playing there for a few years as the Oilers are gonna be a contender real soon.

Additionally, with a 48/50 game season it's paramount to get off to a good start. So much more important than an 82 game season, if you get down early good luck coming back with the travel and reduced number of games to play. If I'm Gillis, I wait 5 games into the season until a few teams start having goaltending issues because I guarantee it will happen. Look at the list of questionable goalies this year on teams that are expected to make the playoffs:

- Markstrom/Theodore
- Reimer/Scrivens
- Brodeur (age)
- Holtby/neuvirth
- Lindback
- Dubnyk
- Bryzgalov
- Dipietro/whoever else NYI has
- Niemi
- Mason/Bobrovsky

Not saying all of these guys are gonna struggle, most won't, but there will certainly be a few who aren't as good as their respective Gms believe. And when that happens, Gillis' list of interested teams grows from 3 to 5 or 6.

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01-06-2013, 03:38 PM
  #547
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Loungo hold the cards, he's got no trade clause, if Canucks refuse to trade him to the team he wants to go too, he stays in Vancouver this year. Next year the Canucks will be forced to buy him out, he will then be a UFA with right to sign with any one of his choosing.
That's highly unlikely.

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01-06-2013, 03:40 PM
  #548
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Like Bob McKenzie speculated in a trade with Florida, Weiss (UFA to be) could be included (particularly if resigning him seems improbable). I would be fine with a package around Weiss+mid prospect
The only problem with this scenario that woulld leave the Panthers without a #1 center. They would have Goc(hurt right now) Mueller hasn't played center in awhile, Huberdeau a rookie, Matthias (concussion), Smithson and last and definately least Santorelli. There is no way thay can trade Weiss at the beginning of the year unless they have another trade to bring a center in lined up or if they plan to tank. And after making the playoffs for the first time in a decade I am guessing they won't want to tank.

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01-06-2013, 03:42 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
As long as his cap hit is artificially lower than it's supposed to be, it's a great contract. Because you can't do that anymore. It's unique, and exploits the loopholes so much so that it was made illegal just now.


That's not a sell job, that's fact based on what just transpired. Infinite term and variance 2 of the 5 major CBA functions outlined by TSN. They weren't fighting over nothing.
It's a good deal while luongo is still elite. How much longer will that be??? The guy is already 33 years old. Natural regression tells us we will start to see luongo decline a bit by the 2014 season. There is still 7 years left on that contract at that point. Not all GM's think only in the present.

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01-06-2013, 03:45 PM
  #550
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And for the Florida fans claiming Luongo is useless to them, you're overlooking the intangibles the guy brings.

Before we had Luongo, our team culture was mediocre at best. When we acquired him, everything changes just based on his mentality and work ethic.

He's a fierce competitor, one of the hardest working guy in the league, and has that drive and motivation above all else to get the win. That sort of attitude is infectious and rubs off on younger players just as it has with Schneider. Luongo has been excellent in the development of Schneider, he's mentored him and helped shape his game into what it is today. He could do the same with Markstrom, and his attitude could have a positive influence on your other younger players too.

And he WANTS to play in Florida, he's an easy going guy that's great in the dressing room and can ease the nerves of the younger guys too. Jeez.

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