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NHL Lockout Discussion XLVI: There's nothing in the street-looks any different to me

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Old
01-05-2013, 08:54 AM
  #26
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
I like how all this falls on Gary Bettman when its the owners lockout, not his.
The funny thing is that taking the heat for the owners is a big part of his job.

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01-05-2013, 08:55 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by crump View Post
So these are the main points left stopping the season
  1. Salary cap and floor
  2. Variance
  3. Pensions
  4. Contract term limits
  5. Collective agreement length

Nice breakdown in this article.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6966672/
*
I have to say, and I don't want to just be blindly pessimistic, but looking at that list I wonder how everyone has come to the conclusion that they're so close to a deal. It seems as though it takes several days just to sort out a single issue. There are five issue left and a couple of them are fairly big. Unless one side is willing to cave in on several things all at once, I don't know if I feel very confident about the "so close" characterization of things given the remaining time left.

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01-05-2013, 08:56 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
I like how all this falls on Gary Bettman when its the owners lockout, not his.
Because they have a scapegoat

And so do the players

And so does Fehr

And so does every fan in the world

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01-05-2013, 08:59 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Because only one side has been responsible for managing the league over the last twenty years.

Whichever side you want to blame right now for the hold up in this current negotiation, there can only be one side who is to blame for creating the horribly toxic, devoid of all trust, working relationship between management an labour, and it isn't the guy who just hired two years ago.
The players had a chance to do what every union does when a new CBA has to be negotiated - do their work while people are still on the job. The PA did not do this so that's only one reason why they have to bear some responsibility for this foolishness.

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Old
01-05-2013, 08:59 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by crump View Post
So these are the main points left stopping the season
  1. Salary cap and floor
  2. Variance
  3. Pensions
  4. Contract term limits
  5. Collective agreement length

Nice breakdown in this article.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6966672/
So basically its everything that is stopping the season right now.

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01-05-2013, 08:59 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by BradD View Post
Because they have a scapegoat

And so do the players

And so does Fehr

And so does every fan in the world
And this doesn't just pertain to hockey either. It's all sports. Commissioners are pretty much hated by default by simple minded sports fans.

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:03 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
The players had a chance to do what every union does when a new CBA has to be negotiated - do their work while people are still on the job. The PA did not do this so that's only one reason why they have to bear some responsibility for this foolishness.
Yup, heaven forbid they want to focus on their season.

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:03 AM
  #33
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Any reports yet suggesting mediation wont begin at 1030?

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01-05-2013, 09:06 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
I have to say, and I don't want to just be blindly pessimistic, but looking at that list I wonder how everyone has come to the conclusion that they're so close to a deal. It seems as though it takes several days just to sort out a single issue. There are five issue left and a couple of them are fairly big. Unless one side is willing to cave in on several things all at once, I don't know if I feel very confident about the "so close" characterization of things given the remaining time left.
Disagree because of the following :

Variance- league apparently offered 30% variance, which completely makes this a non-issue.

CBA term: supposedly both sides agree to a 10 year term, but league wants optional out clause at year 8 compared.to the PA wanting at year 7. Again - not a big issue.

Player contract term: Owners want 6/7, players supposedly want 7/7. Not a big difference.

2013-2014 Cap: Does not impact what the owners payout in salary after escrow. Should not be significant.

Pension: Could be a big deal. Haven't heard any details.

Obviously, above are just IMO based on rumored positions on each side.

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:11 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
The players had a chance to do what every union does when a new CBA has to be negotiated - do their work while people are still on the job. The PA did not do this so that's only one reason why they have to bear some responsibility for this foolishness.
The notion that beginning "negotiations" sooner would have had the simple effect of just "moving up" the entire negotiation time table is incredibly naive.

Here is how a September 2011 meeting would have gone...

NHL - "We need 57% of revenues"
NHLPA - "No""
NHL - "Come back when you're ready to negotiate"

And I am not even saying that would have been wrong of the NHL, but that is just how negotiations work.

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:13 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by stug View Post
So basically its everything that is stopping the season right now.
There is always so much spin in most articles. Most journalists have picked their side and see and report everything through their bised lense. Therefore, they tend to emphasize the differences and vilify the other side.

This article was posted yesterday that IMO takes a more balanced look at what seperates the 2 sides, and it's not really that much especially after a full day of mediation since then that has likely reduced the gap further.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...medium=twitter

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01-05-2013, 09:14 AM
  #37
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Give the players their pensions. Give the league their variance rules. Meet in the middle on the cap. 10 year CBA is a gift to the fans, man up players. It's an insult to put us through this bs again sooner than that.

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:17 AM
  #38
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This is all like bloody Groundhog day. Everything happens exactly the same way.

Promise, promise, promise, negative journo tweet, one of the big dogs saying it's not gone anywhere, meet tomorrow.

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01-05-2013, 09:20 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Yup, heaven forbid they want to focus on their season.
this might have been sarcasm but can't tell, but it was the players that wanted to extend this current cba (after it expired). so they could play and negotiate.

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01-05-2013, 09:20 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
This is all like bloody Groundhog day. Everything happens exactly the same way.

Promise, promise, promise, negative journo tweet, one of the big dogs saying it's not gone anywhere, meet tomorrow.
Why would people expect anything different?

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01-05-2013, 09:21 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
This is all like bloody Groundhog day. Everything happens exactly the same way.

Promise, promise, promise, negative journo tweet, one of the big dogs saying it's not gone anywhere, meet tomorrow.
But we had no negativity after last night!

In fact we have no idea where they are at right now... They have been dead quiet

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:23 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Because only one side has been responsible for managing the league over the last twenty years.

Whichever side you want to blame right now for the hold up in this current negotiation, there can only be one side who is to blame for creating the horribly toxic, devoid of all trust, working relationship between management an labour, and it isn't the guy who just hired two years ago.
You think one man is responsible for a couple of work interuptions over 20 years?

Who do you blame for all the other strikes/lockouts in North America ever since unions have been around? Perhaps Bettman is responsible for the auto workers going on strike what seems like every second day? Maybe the nurses unions? The loggers? Walmart? Ahh, maybe it's all the rest of the public sector collective bargaining units?

It always takes two to tango so blaming a lockout or strike on one individual is just asinine. What do you think would have happened to the NHL if the ownership group gave in to every player's demand over the last 20 years? There simply wouldn't be an NHL..at least any more than 6 or 8 teams...Some league we'd have...

If that's your take on work stoppages, I really don't know what to tell you...


Last edited by TMI: 01-05-2013 at 12:24 PM. Reason: flame
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Old
01-05-2013, 09:25 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Yup, heaven forbid they want to focus on their season.
And normal union members don't focus on their work when their unions negotiate a deal?

It's the 21st century - unions can negotiate and keep their members informed by using that new thingy called the interweb.

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01-05-2013, 09:26 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
this might have been sarcasm but can't tell, but it was the players that wanted to extend this current cba (after it expired). so they could play and negotiate.
So Fehr could create an entire season worth of expenses for the NHL and then cancel (strike) the playoffs? Offering to extend the CBA was nothing more than an attempt to gain leverage for the NHLPA.

People that have no idea whats going on look at your statement and say, "look how willing the players were to play. This is all the owners fault." <------- And they are wrong.

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:27 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
The notion that beginning "negotiations" sooner would have had the simple effect of just "moving up" the entire negotiation time table is incredibly naive.
It works for other, more functional unions.

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:27 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
The notion that beginning "negotiations" sooner would have had the simple effect of just "moving up" the entire negotiation time table is incredibly naive.

Here is how a September 2011 meeting would have gone...

NHL - "We need 57% of revenues"
NHLPA - "No""
NHL - "Come back when you're ready to negotiate"

And I am not even saying that would have been wrong of the NHL, but that is just how negotiations work.
Thats not how negotiations work. Instead of the NHLPA saying "no", they should countered the offer. One side high balls, the other side low balls. They then exchange offers until they meet somewhere in the middle.

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:27 AM
  #47
Pilky01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilfan2 View Post

You think one man is responsible for a couple of work interuptions over 20 years?

Who do you blame for all the other strikes/lockouts in North America ever since unions have been around? Perhaps Bettman is responsible for the auto workers going on strike what seems like every second day? Maybe the nurses unions? The loggers? Walmart? Ahh, maybe it's all the rest of the public sector collective bargaining units?

It always takes two to tango so blaming a lockout or strike on one individual is just asinine. What do you think would have happened to the NHL if the ownership group gave in to every player's demand over the last 20 years? There simply wouldn't be an NHL..at least any more than 6 or 8 teams...Some league we'd have...

If that's your take on work stoppages, I really don't know what to tell you...


Well, first, it isn't a "couple", it is three.

Second, I don't blame Battman for the labour situation with the auto workers, nurses, Walmart, loggers, or any other unrelated business. I only blame him for the present situation of the organization that he has been the leader of for the last twenty years.

A bold position, I know, but I am willing to give him a pass on the things he had nothing to do with.



Last edited by TMI: 01-05-2013 at 12:25 PM. Reason: quote
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Old
01-05-2013, 09:28 AM
  #48
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RenLavoieRDS (Renaud Lavoie)
Mediator should be with the NHLPA soon. Vote on disclaimer to end at 6 PM.

http://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDS/stat...81091588616192

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:28 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by isles31 View Post
Dont forget hotel sheet thread count.

im not sure if thats really true, but it was mentioned about 4 threads ago yesterday and its pretty ridiculous if it is. Wonder if they can request waterbeds for every room?
The towels were part of a larger discussion that happened months ago; it's not as if the PA used towel quality as a stall tactic yesterday.

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Old
01-05-2013, 09:32 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
I didnt read the quotes, but if you're referring to changes to HRR penalties, then yes, thats the issue.

The players have no one to blame except their lawyers and the negotiating committee. Unfortunately they're bogging down the process because they're mad at themselves.
The NHLPA side didnt miss the items. They responded with questions to the changes on two different dates, an affirmation that they saw them.

The kerfuffle over this was 100% manufactured.

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