HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Does this season do anything for Malkin?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-05-2013, 12:31 AM
  #1
Danglesonice66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 60
vCash: 500
Does this season do anything for Malkin?

I was wondering how what malkin does in the KHL this year factors into his career accomplishments. I'm assuming he's in contentions for some major awards and a championship just from looking at the stats. It's kind of unique chance to show some versatility and have a lot of successes in two very different leagues.

Danglesonice66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:46 AM
  #2
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,788
vCash: 593
It's better than nothing i suppose. And you're right that the game there is different which we can see from the scoring not only from a dude like Kevin Dallman that many here often makes fun of, but also when Sergei Mozyakin at least thus far are matching Evgeni.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:55 AM
  #3
Danglesonice66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 60
vCash: 500
I would consider Mozyakin success part of the good season malkin is having. Evgeni had a 3 goals today and Mozyakin assisted on all of them so I'm sure they have been feeding off each other one way or another all year. Malkin has pretty good track record of helping linemates put up big numbers and attracting defensive attention.

Danglesonice66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 01:29 AM
  #4
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,788
vCash: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danglesonice66 View Post
I would consider Mozyakin success part of the good season malkin is having. Evgeni had a 3 goals today and Mozyakin assisted on all of them so I'm sure they have been feeding off each other one way or another all year. Malkin has pretty good track record of helping linemates put up big numbers and attracting defensive attention.
Yeah, but you dont see his linemates in the NHL matching his scoring. My guess is that he will eventually outscore Mozyakin, when he has adjusted fully, but it wont be by much. There is probably many things one can say about the KHL-game, for good and bad, but one thing is that the larger ice actually suits some better, like Kevin Dallman and Mozyakin. Another thing probably is that some players only can produce when the average talent level is lesser.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:22 PM
  #5
Danglesonice66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 60
vCash: 500
I definitely don't disagree with anything you are saying. The point I way kind of trying to drive at is that most guys seem to do much a better in either the KHL or the NHL. I think it's cool that Malkin's game seems to work just as well wherever he is playing. He's got something like 28 points in the last 10 games so I assume he will get around 2 a game the rest of the way. That could potentially be enough to make him the first to win MVP/scoring title in both the KHL and NHL.


Last edited by Danglesonice66: 01-05-2013 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Spelling
Danglesonice66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 01:43 PM
  #6
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,165
vCash: 500
I know that when we discuss his HHOF credibility we won't even bother to bring it up. It will be long forgotten. Of all the times I have heard Joe Thornton's name brought up I can't recall a single time when someone said "Don't forget about his performance overseas in 2004-'05." It just isn't important in the grand scheme of things. I will say that a Russian like Malkin probably enjoys playing over there in his homeland but to anyone else this is just merely a team that a player will stay in game shape for. There is little emotional attachment to it. Which is why even when there are a few of the best players in the world there, their hearts aren't in it at all. How could it be when they have one eye on the NHLPA followings? So I don't think it will count at all in the long run.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 01:53 PM
  #7
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,103
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danglesonice66 View Post
I was wondering how what malkin does in the KHL this year factors into his career accomplishments. I'm assuming he's in contentions for some major awards and a championship just from looking at the stats. It's kind of unique chance to show some versatility and have a lot of successes in two very different leagues.
He is one of the top 3 players in the world period so it's not a surprise to see him succeeding in the KHL this year.

On a more general note I tend to judge players on the off time between NHL lockouts, thanks Gary, mainly on their NHL time before and after the lockout.

Sure one can look at stats from Europe but for many NA guys they aren't as motivated to excel as they are just looking to stay in playing and game shape in some cases.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 02:17 PM
  #8
Gee Wally
Retired
 
Gee Wally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: HF retirement home
Country: United States
Posts: 33,920
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danglesonice66 View Post
I was wondering how what malkin does in the KHL this year factors into his career accomplishments. I'm assuming he's in contentions for some major awards and a championship just from looking at the stats. It's kind of unique chance to show some versatility and have a lot of successes in two very different leagues.
Nothing. No different than past work stoppages or even the old WHA days.

__________________

BOSTON STRONG !!!
Gee Wally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 06:09 PM
  #9
Fantomas
Registered User
 
Fantomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,648
vCash: 500
It matters to Russians. Doesn't matter to Canadians.

Fantomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 06:29 PM
  #10
Harry Waters
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
vCash: 500
While I don't think this season will do that much for Malkin, leading the best league in hockey actually playing right now should count for something. He is playing against very good players who have played in the KHL before and against NHLers and he is doing very well.

On a side note, I find the lack of respect for the KHL quite astonishing sometimes. Especially when some people are discussing HHOF credibility, may I remind you that this is not the "NHL Hall of Fame"? This is even more disturbing since the NHL is on a lockout, which is the only reason Malkin is in the KHL. If the great NHL manages to call off season after season it surely will be hard for many players to make their HHOF-cases (I know I'm exaggerating, but I just want NHL-hockey back). But under the impression of the NHL failing that hard, perhaps there should be a little more room and respect towards other leagues, especially for the KHL. That's all I'm saying.

Harry Waters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 07:13 PM
  #11
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Waters View Post
While I don't think this season will do that much for Malkin, leading the best league in hockey actually playing right now should count for something. He is playing against very good players who have played in the KHL before and against NHLers and he is doing very well.

On a side note, I find the lack of respect for the KHL quite astonishing sometimes. Especially when some people are discussing HHOF credibility, may I remind you that this is not the "NHL Hall of Fame"? This is even more disturbing since the NHL is on a lockout, which is the only reason Malkin is in the KHL. If the great NHL manages to call off season after season it surely will be hard for many players to make their HHOF-cases (I know I'm exaggerating, but I just want NHL-hockey back). But under the impression of the NHL failing that hard, perhaps there should be a little more room and respect towards other leagues, especially for the KHL. That's all I'm saying.
I'm extremely bitter about NHL hockey not being there right now too. However, I am assuming even the NHL and NHLPA won't screw this one up and cancel another season which means Malkin along with others come back to the best league in the world against the best players. That alone should give you an indication of how important another league is outside of the NHL when discussing a HHOF career. Malkin, a home grown Russian would even leave his KHL team in the dust the second the deal is signed.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 09:15 PM
  #12
Danglesonice66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 60
vCash: 500
It sucks that there is nothing a player can to avoid losing this year off his hockey resume. I think it's especially bad for a guy playing on the level Malkin was at last year. Nothing really to suggest he wasn't ready to have the same type of year again.

Danglesonice66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 09:20 PM
  #13
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,436
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I know that when we discuss his HHOF credibility we won't even bother to bring it up. It will be long forgotten. Of all the times I have heard Joe Thornton's name brought up I can't recall a single time when someone said "Don't forget about his performance overseas in 2004-'05."
Thornton played in the Swiss league, a far cry from the KHL, and was outshone there by Randy Robitaille (67 pts in 36 gms vs. Thornton's 54 in 40).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
That alone should give you an indication of how important another league is outside of the NHL when discussing a HHOF career. Malkin, a home grown Russian would even leave his KHL team in the dust the second the deal is signed.
He's under contract, so it's not like he has a choice. I think being near the top of the best league(s) actually playing hockey is something that should be given more credit than whatever it is those not playing hockey are doing.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2013, 12:59 AM
  #14
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Thornton played in the Swiss league, a far cry from the KHL, and was outshone there by Randy Robitaille (67 pts in 36 gms vs. Thornton's 54 in 40).

He's under contract, so it's not like he has a choice. I think being near the top of the best league(s) actually playing hockey is something that should be given more credit than whatever it is those not playing hockey are doing.
Thornton did win a championship that year though did he not? I am just saying that in all the threads I have seen discussing Thornton's HHOF chances I have never even heard a word about his 2004-'05 season bumping him up. You'd think there would be, but there isn't. Malkin is probably playing another decade in the NHL and could win a lot more hardware. With all that I expect him to accumulate in his career I don't even think the 2012-'13 partial season in the KHL (I am assuming the NHL is back for half a season) will be elevated to even a footnote status. Right now it seems mildly important but it will soon be forgotten. If the WHA is more or less irrelevant to a player's HHOF status I don't see why a KHL season wouldn't be either.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2013, 03:06 AM
  #15
Harry Waters
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Thornton did win a championship that year though did he not? I am just saying that in all the threads I have seen discussing Thornton's HHOF chances I have never even heard a word about his 2004-'05 season bumping him up. You'd think there would be, but there isn't. Malkin is probably playing another decade in the NHL and could win a lot more hardware. With all that I expect him to accumulate in his career I don't even think the 2012-'13 partial season in the KHL (I am assuming the NHL is back for half a season) will be elevated to even a footnote status. Right now it seems mildly important but it will soon be forgotten. If the WHA is more or less irrelevant to a player's HHOF status I don't see why a KHL season wouldn't be either.
I hear what you are saying, and partially I do agree, but Thornton's season in Switzerland is not a good point in my opinion. The 2012-13 KHL is a much better league.

And to your point that Malkin would leave his team in the dust the minute the deal is signed: sure, we know that the NHL is still more important, but he also has a contract. And on another side note: he would leave the Penguins in the dust as well if the NHL wouldn't let the players play in Sochi 2014, so the NHL is not above everything.

Like I said, this KHL season should get more credit, because it might be the best "alternative league" for players to compete over the stretch of the last three lockouts.

Harry Waters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2013, 03:37 AM
  #16
Regal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,675
vCash: 500
I don't see why it shouldn't be given similar credit as say, Bobby Hull's time in the WHL, or Jagr's years in the KHL, but like them, I think most people will use what they did to project what they would do in the NHL. With Malkin, it's clear he's one of if not the best player in the world, and has been healthy and productive in a very good league during the lockout. In the grand scheme of things, he should probably be given credit to his career resume as if he were to have another great season in the NHL. That said, it's looking likely there will be a shortened season now, so in the end, people will most likely just remember what he does in the NHL over the 48 or 50 games and give credit accordingly.

Regal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2013, 05:41 AM
  #17
Kshahdoo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 2,724
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I know that when we discuss his HHOF credibility we won't even bother to bring it up. It will be long forgotten. Of all the times I have heard Joe Thornton's name brought up I can't recall a single time when someone said "Don't forget about his performance overseas in 2004-'05." It just isn't important in the grand scheme of things. I will say that a Russian like Malkin probably enjoys playing over there in his homeland but to anyone else this is just merely a team that a player will stay in game shape for. There is little emotional attachment to it. Which is why even when there are a few of the best players in the world there, their hearts aren't in it at all. How could it be when they have one eye on the NHLPA followings? So I don't think it will count at all in the long run.
I guess, HHOF membership is overrated. There are millions of hockey fans in the world who just don't care about it. They will remember everything. His NHL feats and his KHL ones.

Kshahdoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2013, 06:34 AM
  #18
Kresnik
Registered User
 
Kresnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 447
vCash: 500
Perhaps not season wise, but people will still consider Malkin the best player in the world that year so in a way it will not affect him. This kind of things has a greater impact on players that are borderline elite i would say.

Kresnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2013, 06:35 AM
  #19
TAnnala
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 9,014
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
I guess, HHOF membership is overrated. There are millions of hockey fans in the world who just don't care about it. They will remember everything. His NHL feats and his KHL ones.
I guess it is a bit watered down, but not overrated in my mind.

There are only few guys NOT in the HHOF who should be. I think it is a very good indicator of a great player. It has NHL bias, yes, but mostly the best players are playing in the NHL. (After the 80's at least).

Players before that are remembered by fans and players after that are remembered by fans and the HHOF.

For example, I remember Nummelin winning the scoring title in Swizerland. He would never be a HHOF member even if he played in the NHL. That does not mean he don't get remembered.

TAnnala is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2013, 07:00 AM
  #20
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,235
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regal View Post
I don't see why it shouldn't be given similar credit as say, Bobby Hull's time in the WHL, or Jagr's years in the KHL, but like them, I think most people will use what they did to project what they would do in the NHL. With Malkin, it's clear he's one of if not the best player in the world, and has been healthy and productive in a very good league during the lockout. In the grand scheme of things, he should probably be given credit to his career resume as if he were to have another great season in the NHL. That said, it's looking likely there will be a shortened season now, so in the end, people will most likely just remember what he does in the NHL over the 48 or 50 games and give credit accordingly.
Actually Jagr doesn't get much credit for his time in the KHL, especially the second time around. He didn't particularly dominate that league and because of that league, when he returned to the NHL, most fans thought he was washed up. Since the KHL is different from the NHL game, it took Jagr a while to re-accustom himself with the faster, more aggressive game in North America. He also struggled the second half of the season in his NHL return. Some see his time away from the NHL as time wasted, just imagine how many points he could have registered had he stayed in the NHL, another 200 to 300 Pts lost?

The WHL was a direct competitor to the NHL back in the 70's and the game itself was quite similar. The KHL and NHL are vastly different though.

Fair or not, what Malkin did in the KHL this year will be overlooked when it comes to HHOF voting unfortunately. I don't want to jinx it but if Malkin were to get injured now and not challenge for the Art Ross, a lot of North American and NHL hockey fans will point fingers at his playing time in Russia during the lockout instead of resting and blame his time there for wearing him down.

Of course they are going to look at what he does in the NHL in 48-50 games for this season to give him credit. Many fans in North America view the KHL and for that matter any other European league as lower tier leagues and they put them more on par with the AHL, in fact because of some of the good young talent that played in the AHL this year, some would have argued that the AHL is a better league than the European Elite leagues. They point to things like "Radulov can dominate the KHL but can't even keep his spot on an NHL team" and things like that to discredit the KHL.

Similarly what Jagr has done in the Czech Extraliga is every bit as impressive as what Malkin has done in the KHL. Malkin is neck and neck with his linemate Mozyakin in scoring, while Jagr has a 10 Pts lead over Plekanec his linemate. Jagr leads his team in goals, assists, points, +/- and his 2nd overall in league scoring. Do you think Jagr will get credit for what he's done in the Czech Republic this year? I doubt it and especially if he isn't successful in the NHL when it resumes in a few weeks.

It's a double standard unfortunately.


Last edited by livewell68: 01-06-2013 at 07:11 AM.
livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2013, 08:27 AM
  #21
Regal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Actually Jagr doesn't get much credit for his time in the KHL, especially the second time around. He didn't particularly dominate that league and because of that league, when he returned to the NHL, most fans thought he was washed up. Since the KHL is different from the NHL game, it took Jagr a while to re-accustom himself with the faster, more aggressive game in North America. He also struggled the second half of the season in his NHL return. Some see his time away from the NHL as time wasted, just imagine how many points he could have registered had he stayed in the NHL, another 200 to 300 Pts lost?

The WHL was a direct competitor to the NHL back in the 70's and the game itself was quite similar. The KHL and NHL are vastly different though.

Fair or not, what Malkin did in the KHL this year will be overlooked when it comes to HHOF voting unfortunately. I don't want to jinx it but if Malkin were to get injured now and not challenge for the Art Ross, a lot of North American and NHL hockey fans will point fingers at his playing time in Russia during the lockout instead of resting and blame his time there for wearing him down.

Of course they are going to look at what he does in the NHL in 48-50 games for this season to give him credit. Many fans in North America view the KHL and for that matter any other Eseasn league as lower tier leagues and they put them more on par with the AHL, in fact because of some of the good young talent that played in the AHL this year, some would have argued that the AHL is a better league than the European Elite leagues. They point to things like "Radulov can dominate the KHL but can't even keep his spot on an NHL team" and things like that to discredit the KHL.

Similarly what Jagr has done in the Czech Extraliga is every bit as impressive as what Malkin has done in the KHL. Malkin is neck and neck with his linemate Mozyakin in scoring, while Jagr has a 10 Pts lead over Plekanec his linemate. Jagr leads his team in goals, assists, points, +/- and his 2nd overall in league scoring. Do you think Jagr will get credit for what he's done in the Czech Republic this year? I doubt it and especially if he isn't successful in the NHL when it resumes in a few weeks.

It's a double standard unfortunately.
You're right, Jagr doesn't get the same credit for his KHL years as Hull does for the WHL, though I think in large part to, as you said, the similarity of the leagues as well as the fact it was the sane audiences watching the two leagues. However, I've seen many people talk about the extra points Jagr could have had if he had stayed in the NHL, and in fact there was a thread on the main board about if he would have passed Messier for points, with many people agreeing that he would. I think most people take those seasons as extra credence to their 'what if' scenarios, rather than at face value. Jagr scored 71 points in his last year before the KHL, playing with a bum shoulder I believe, and then had a great playoffs. I think that season, plus his KHL time, and then him coming back last year and having a solid season, particularly in the first half, makes a lot of people add value to those seasons away, that at the very least, he'd probably put up 70 point sesasons in the NHL. I think Malkin, had the lockout lasted a full season, would have been in a similar situation, where the fact that he left as the league MVP and Art Ross winner and showed he was healthy and great in the best league available shows that he most likely would have competed for another Art Ross here. Perhaps I'm wrong, considering you don't see players who missed a season in the last lockout brought up much, but as this become more common (hopefully not) I think more people will consider it. Again, not so much for what they did in the particular league they plagued in (rightly or wrongly) but for what people think they would have done in the NHL. As is, provided Malkin stays healthy and has a dominant half-season, I doubt it will be anything more than a footnote, however. A feather in his cap that he can succeed in multiple leagues with various playing styles.

Regal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2013, 10:01 AM
  #22
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,436
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Thornton did win a championship that year though did he not? I am just saying that in all the threads I have seen discussing Thornton's HHOF chances I have never even heard a word about his 2004-'05 season bumping him up. You'd think there would be, but there isn't. Malkin is probably playing another decade in the NHL and could win a lot more hardware. With all that I expect him to accumulate in his career I don't even think the 2012-'13 partial season in the KHL (I am assuming the NHL is back for half a season) will be elevated to even a footnote status. Right now it seems mildly important but it will soon be forgotten. If the WHA is more or less irrelevant to a player's HHOF status I don't see why a KHL season wouldn't be either.
The reason the lockout seasons aren't/won't be mentioned much when discussing the HHOF chances of Thornton or Malkin, is that they are assumed to basically be locks when their careers end. If it was really questionable, then I think Thornton's missed '05 season would become much more relevant. He would have been one of the favorites that year (possibly co-favorite with Jagr). Similarly, Malkin would have been one of the favorites this year (at least the co-favorite with Crosby).

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2013, 03:02 AM
  #23
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,788
vCash: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Similarly, Malkin would have been one of the favorites this year (at least the co-favorite with Crosby).
Damn right man, dont need to talk about the KHL again for the next 8-10 years. LETS GO PENS!

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 09:31 PM
  #24
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
I guess, HHOF membership is overrated. There are millions of hockey fans in the world who just don't care about it. They will remember everything. His NHL feats and his KHL ones.
Let's put it this way, if the Penguins hoist the Cup in June how many people will even bring up his KHL partial year in June let alone 20 years from now when he gets into the HHOF. Sorry, you don't get credit in my eyes if you aren't playing in the best league in the world with the best players competing night in and night out. Malkin can do this just fine in the NHL and this is how he'll be remembered.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2013, 11:19 AM
  #25
Brewsky
King Of The Ice Mugs
 
Brewsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: King County
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,049
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Brewsky Send a message via AIM to Brewsky Send a message via MSN to Brewsky Send a message via Yahoo to Brewsky Send a message via Skype™ to Brewsky
I don't really give a rats ass what he did in the KHL this year, he could've scored 120 points in 50 games I wouldn't have given a ****. Just being honest.

Brewsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:23 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.