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Cherry: CHL should stop letting Americans and Europeans to play in CHL (merged)

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01-07-2013, 02:55 PM
  #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
But it does boost the competitive level for those who remain. Do you want a weaker league for 100 Canadian kids or a stronger league for 80? The ones who are going on to the next level, in the majority of cases, aren't the ones who are going to get displaced anyway, they're already in the 80, save for a few late blooming exceptions. I don't think Cherry has any valid point at all anywhere in this whole thing. It's just his flailing attempts to rationalize his xenophobia - conscious or subconcious, whatever. He's probably a nice enough guy and all and at least he *wants* to rationalize it. But he's missing the mark, and giving us a weaker CHL to watch isn't what we want.
The late bloomers benefit from being able to play NCAA Hockey (where they could go from 18-22 or even 20-24 to develop) as opposed to 4th line duty on a CHL duty where they have to become professionals upon turning 20 in my opinion anyways.

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01-07-2013, 03:58 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by FrontalLombardomy View Post
You didn't really come close to properly addressing his point (not that I agree with it).

It's also not as cut and dry acceptable as you'd like to make it out to be in regards to NHLers taking jobs from Europeans. I recall PK Subban stating that he wasn't playing in Europe because he didn't want to take away someone's job when he's already fortunate enough to make NHL money.

The issue with Don Cherry is that you have to have a sort of internal censor. He does have some legitimate points once you cut through a certain amount of nationalistic garbage to get to them. I wish he'd let up a bit, I actually like the dude when he just talks hockey.
The thing about his contribution quotes is that it implies that if you contribute money to a country that means you're entitled to playing hockey regardless of having lesser talent than the European/American player(s).

Simply put, that's not the way the world works anyway. You're never entitled to anything, you simply have to work hard and have the ability to get into the league. So now we're supposed to feel sorry if someone (of privileged status, pays taxes etc.) was cut in favour for someone who is perceived as having better talent than the cut lesser talented junior player?

We're making a mountain out of this, it has nothing to do with Canadian Developmental Leagues. It has everything to do with higher quality competition (especially in European leagues) and boneheaded decisions from Hockey Canada. No one is blaming Steve Spott for the horrendous choices he's made, no one is blaming the players who quite frankly did not play up to elite standards, no one is blaming Hockey Canada for being stats ***** instead of being objective.

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01-07-2013, 04:16 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by black charger View Post
Yes it should and that was Don's main point.Canada is helping players worldwide to improve and the world is using the expert training and development they have recieved to "beat us at our own game".
It is moronic to suggest that the countries that are good enough to beat Canada are being "helped" by Canada: not only do they have very few players in the CHL but the training they would receive at home is similar if not better than the one they get in Canada.

As for the smaller countries, the "help" they get from the CHL is marginal at best. For instance Belarus, Denmark, Norway and Slovenia combine for just 4 CHL players, while the Danish national junior team alone has 6 players in Sweden, which of course is hardly surprising given the location of the respective countries.

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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
2011 Russia had 1 CHL player. In 2012 Sweden had 4. Of the 9 Americans who were CHL players this year, only four were playing in the CHL before this season. 2 of those four came through the US Development Program.
And even then 4 of the 9 are actually on American teams.

Is Canada also going to take credit for every American player developed within 100 miles of its border?

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01-07-2013, 04:26 PM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
It is moronic to suggest that the countries that are good enough to beat Canada are being "helped" by Canada: not only do they have very few players in the CHL but the training they would receive at home is similar if not better than the one they get in Canada.
Well, arguably anyway, it has "helped" them adjust to a North American style game more. In some cases at least. Force the puck a bit harder and play more physically or be edgy/cocky/agitating. To the point where I kind of see several teams now who play more/as much that way as Canada does. Not sure it makes them "better" per se, but better at beating Canada, anyway.

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01-07-2013, 04:26 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
It is moronic to suggest that the countries that are good enough to beat Canada are being "helped" by Canada: not only do they have very few players in the CHL but the training they would receive at home is similar if not better than the one they get in Canada.

As for the smaller countries, the "help" they get from the CHL is marginal at best. For instance Belarus, Denmark, Norway and Slovenia combine for just 4 CHL players, while the Danish national junior team alone has 6 players in Sweden, which of course is hardly surprising given the location of the respective countries.


And even then 4 of the 9 are actually on American teams.

Is Canada also going to take credit for every American player developed within 100 miles of its border?
Why would these players come to play in the CHL instead of at home if this was the case?

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01-07-2013, 04:27 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
Where does it say that the CHL means strictly Canadian junior hockey development? All the CHL suggests is "Canadian Hockey League" which means that the league itself takes place in Canada.
The league itself does not even take place solely in Canada.

There are 8 American teams and there happens to be just enough non-Canadian players to fill the rosters of these 8 teams.

Th idea that Canadians have roster spots taken away from them is ludicrous. Even if they had, it would only be marginal CHLers whose presence is best avoided.

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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Do you want a weaker league for 100 Canadian kids or a stronger league for 80?
How exactly would banning foreign players open even one roster spot for Canadians? Do people not realise that in 8 CHL teams the foreigners are the Canadians?

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01-07-2013, 04:43 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
A. How would you have any idea how good a basketball player my daughter is, especially in comparison to yours?

B. My daughter doesn't play basketball.

C. You can send as many Americans up here as you want, and a bunch of Russians and Swedes, too. We are still going to beat all of you in the majority of best on best tournaments for the next five hundred years anyway, and you know it.

I love how nationalistic you all get about this topic, and yet you criticize Cherry to no end for doing the same. Hypocritical.
I don't have a daughter that plays basketball either. I figured if you are going to start throwing out make believe crap, I would do the same. Your point was if I would be upset if it happened to someone I know. It doesn't matter if it happens to ME or someone I know. The reality is that there are American scholarships being taken by Canadian, and other countries. I have no problem with that because competition is good. But I do have a problem when Canadians want to act as if it doesn't happen and that other countries are taking advantage of them with nothing in return.

My point was never that anyone was going to catch up with Canada. I do not think anyone can compete with Canada with hockey. #1 sport, top athletes in your country play it, blah blah blah etc. My point was that if anyone suggests doing what Cherry is doing, then they must feel they are losing it and have to protect it and they want to ignore the fact that there are Canadian's playing outside of Canada. (pro and amature)

You love how people get all nationalistic when someone throws out a nationalistic agenda? consider me shocked.

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01-07-2013, 04:45 PM
  #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
The league itself does not even take place solely in Canada.

There are 8 American teams and there happens to be just enough non-Canadian players to fill the rosters of these 8 teams.

Th idea that Canadians have roster spots taken away from them is ludicrous. Even if they had, it would only be marginal CHLers whose presence is best avoided.
Ah forgot the CHL has franchises in the states like Spokane and Portland. So that alone further confuses the definition of the CHL that people have anyway...that because it's the CHL that all the players must be strictly Canadians in order to play.

And I agree with your sentiments about the players, people make it as if there's a whole bunch of foreigners coming in and "stealing" someone else's spot, when in actuality, it's only a small population of foreign players anyway.

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01-07-2013, 04:54 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by FrontalLombardomy View Post
You didn't really come close to properly addressing his point (not that I agree with it).

It's also not as cut and dry acceptable as you'd like to make it out to be in regards to NHLers taking jobs from Europeans. I recall PK Subban stating that he wasn't playing in Europe because he didn't want to take away someone's job when he's already fortunate enough to make NHL money.

The issue with Don Cherry is that you have to have a sort of internal censor. He does have some legitimate points once you cut through a certain amount of nationalistic garbage to get to them. I wish he'd let up a bit, I actually like the dude when he just talks hockey.
By that argument American Universities should forbid all foreigners from obtaining a college-degree and playing NCAA hockey on a scholarship because it is potentially taking away a 'spot' for an American.

That sounds utterly retarded.

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01-07-2013, 04:55 PM
  #635
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Cherry does usually limit his rant to imports, though, where "imports", per the CHL definition don't include Americans. Maybe he's a little bit extra ticked at the last WJC loss, who knows, if he's gone the extra step to including Americans now. Not all of the 100 or so "imports" in the CHL really do much to raise the level of competition either. Some are pretty generic players, replaceable with North Americans. But the few cases like Yakupov and Grigorenko etc who are stars are definitely worth it, and definitely make the league better and more exciting, and helps raise the competition level and improve the development of all the Canadian players in the league too. I don't really understand how any hockey fan would prefer not to see those world class players.

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01-07-2013, 04:56 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Well, arguably anyway, it has "helped" them adjust to a North American style game more. In some cases at least. Force the puck a bit harder and play more physically or be edgy/cocky/agitating. To the point where I kind of see several teams now who play more/as much that way as Canada does. Not sure it makes them "better" per se, but better at beating Canada, anyway.
Well conversely that makes them more predictable to Canadian players and coaches, so it is highly unlikely there is any benefit even when it comes to beating Canada.

Quote:
Originally Posted by black charger View Post
Why would these players come to play in the CHL instead of at home if this was the case?
You do realise that the players who come to play in the CHL are vastly outnumbered by those that chose not to?

Players go to the CHL because they want to show NHL scouts that they are committed to playing in NA and learning the NA brand of hockey, or simply learn the language.

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01-07-2013, 05:06 PM
  #637
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CHL teams are allowed to dress two 16 year olds,and 2 imports.There is no rule where the 16 year old comes from,so,in essence it is possible that not even one Canadian kid moves from Minor Midget and gets to play junior.Even if there are only 30 rookie imports that only leaves spots for 90 kids across the country.

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01-07-2013, 05:19 PM
  #638
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You do realise that the players who come to play in the CHL are vastly outnumbered by those that chose not to?

Players go to the CHL because they want to show NHL scouts that they are committed to playing in NA and learning the NA brand of hockey, or simply learn the language.[/QUOTE]

Or is it because there are limited spots available,most teams play with both import spots taken.

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01-07-2013, 05:29 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by black charger View Post
If anyone has been paying attention there is no restiction whatsoever on American players in the CHL.
And there shouldn't be, OHL and WHL have teams in the US.

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01-07-2013, 05:39 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by black charger View Post
Or is it because there are limited spots available,most teams play with both import spots taken.
Yeah, I'm sure players like Filip Forsberg are only in Europe because no team in the CHL wanted to sign them, that can't possibly have been their own decision.

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01-07-2013, 05:58 PM
  #641
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By the looks of it this discussion will be never ending and I have been involved in it from day one.The NHL is back,the WJC is long over and I think I'll waste some time on topics other than this,chow for now.

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01-07-2013, 06:08 PM
  #642
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Cherry thinks he's pro-Canadian by making these statements but its pro-business (pro-labour) and not pro-fan (majority of Canadians). Having European talent in the CHL benefits the fans, and thus a majority of Canadians by having a better product on the ice.

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01-07-2013, 06:39 PM
  #643
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I am still not sure how so many of you think this is anti-European or anti-American. I think it would benefit the leagues in non-Canadian centres to have players stay at home to play. In a weird way, I think some of YOU are being anti-European by saying it is okay to poach their best players for our entertainment purposes. If you really cared about European hockey, I think you would want them to remain in their own systems until such time they are NHL-ready. Even then, they could make a lot of money by staying with their own professional club teams. I would say that is a great alternative. I am not sure why they would want to come here anyway, tbh.

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01-07-2013, 06:47 PM
  #644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
It is moronic to suggest that the countries that are good enough to beat Canada are being "helped" by Canada: not only do they have very few players in the CHL but the training they would receive at home is similar if not better than the one they get in Canada.
Should've stopped there. The "if not better...", although somewhat subjective, is false. It it undisputed that the CHL is the greatest development league; it's the same argument as NHL vs KHL. The KHL might have some better players, but its not even close to the NHL in terms of overall talent. The same goes for the CHL. The competition is simply put, better. Other leagues cannot compete at this point in time.

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01-07-2013, 06:53 PM
  #645
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Someone should tell Cherry that the WHL should stop letting people from Ontario play there. Be a good way to troll him.

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01-07-2013, 06:55 PM
  #646
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By that argument American Universities should forbid all foreigners from obtaining a college-degree and playing NCAA hockey on a scholarship because it is potentially taking away a 'spot' for an American.

That sounds utterly retarded.
Yep, when you add an irrelevant part to it. An equivalent statement would be to say that the CHL would prevent foreigners from playing in the league, but also forbid them from higher education in Canada?

What exactly does education have to do with this? Stick to HOCKEY, not hockey + school.

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01-07-2013, 07:03 PM
  #647
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I absolutely love Don Cherry. Someday, he will be missed.

As an American, I realize Canada is the cradle of hockey. Yes, the USA won a junior tourney but I don't think anyone with half a brain os going to claim The USA has caught up to Canadians in hockey. That would be fooish. What is true is we are much better than we were 20 or 30 years ago. That is good for hockey.

Cherry's rant comes off as inferiority when there should be no such feelings for any Canadian.

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01-07-2013, 07:07 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I am still not sure how so many of you think this is anti-European or anti-American. I think it would benefit the leagues in non-Canadian centres to have players stay at home to play. In a weird way, I think some of YOU are being anti-European by saying it is okay to poach their best players for our entertainment purposes. If you really cared about European hockey, I think you would want them to remain in their own systems until such time they are NHL-ready. Even then, they could make a lot of money by staying with their own professional club teams. I would say that is a great alternative. I am not sure why they would want to come here anyway, tbh.
Uh maybe it has to do with how the NHL is the most competitive league in the world, and god forbid they actually want to improve their development in the juniors so that they can get into the NHL? . I find it funny how you claim that people who want a diverse league are anti-European/anti-diversity when you're the one preaching that they should stay wherever they belong and that's not anti-diversity?

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01-07-2013, 07:15 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
Uh maybe it has to do with how the NHL is the most competitive league in the world, and god forbid they actually want to improve their development in the juniors so that they can get into the NHL? . I find it funny how you claim that people who want a diverse league are anti-European/anti-diversity when you're the one preaching that they should stay wherever they belong and that's not anti-diversity?
I am not preaching anything. I am trying to put myself in the place of a guy from Moscow. Maybe I would like to watch my countrymen play their junior careers in our country as opposed to having them board a plane and say good-bye forever.

How would I feel if guys like Crosby, Tavares, RNH, and Nate MacKinnon all turned 16 and went to play in Moscow? Not too happy. Not because I hate Moscow. Because I want to see young Canadians play in Canada.

What you call anti-diversity, I call a simple case of being a fan of Canadian hockey and Canadian hockey players. I would not fault a Russian for feeling the same way about his players. In fact, I would applaud him for it.

Shouldn't be that hard to figure out, with or without the condescending smilies.

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01-07-2013, 07:33 PM
  #650
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I am not preaching anything. I am trying to put myself in the place of a guy from Moscow. Maybe I would like to watch my countrymen play their junior careers in our country as opposed to having them board a plane and say good-bye forever.

How would I feel if guys like Crosby, Tavares, RNH, and Nate MacKinnon all turned 16 and went to play in Moscow? Not too happy. Not because I hate Moscow. Because I want to see young Canadians play in Canada.

What you call anti-diversity, I call a simple case of being a fan of Canadian hockey and Canadian hockey players. I would not fault a Russian for feeling the same way about his players. In fact, I would applaud him for it.

Shouldn't be that hard to figure out, with or without the condescending smilies.
The thing about putting yourself in a person's place is that it's more complicated than simply having one line of thinking. What about other Russians who thought they could achieve much better and reach their potential in N.A. rather than in their own country? Let's not forget, the NHL is played on smaller rinks than the KHL, SEL, other European leagues, if I'm in the position of a Moscow player that has a fork on the road and is contemplating whether to be a KHL'er with the potential of making to the NHL or a CHL'er with the potential of making to the NHL, I would love to adapt myself to their style of play before making the big jump (basically trial and error) as it would put me in a better position to play and understand the NHL-style (especially when you see that a lot of random KHLers have struggled with small-ice play due to lack of development in the same setting). If Crosby, MacKinnon, etc. believed that the best league for them is Russia's then more power to them, why would I be ******** that they didn't pick Canada? After all it's their careers, they chose what's best for their careers, I have no say in their decision-making process.

The problem I have is that why should we let the person who wants to come over to play the N.A. style be stopped from doing so? Just because Canadians are ******** over the fact that they think making the CHL available to import players did them in at the WJC? Don Cherry never once blasted Steve Spott from making idiotic choices and snubbed junior players that played better than the players that he picked. Additionally, Spott is a terrible motivator, his team wasn't even close to ready against USA and Russia. no one blasted Hockey Canada for using such an idiotic method to get the players (basically came down to who was famous and scored the most), and most importantly, Don Cherry didn't even blast the Canadian players for playing like utter garbage against United States and Russia.

And on top of all of that, I don't see Cherry whining about Canadian players who never contributed a cent to Europe yet they're playing in European ice and stealing other people's jobs. So why the ******** in the first place?

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