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Cherry: CHL should stop letting Americans and Europeans to play in CHL (merged)

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Old
01-07-2013, 08:03 PM
  #651
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They are getting old but don't put Billy Clearly in the same room as Don Cherry. Clearly still
rankles from the garbage the NHL pulled towards US players right through the early 70's.

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01-07-2013, 08:43 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
The thing about putting yourself in a person's place is that it's more complicated than simply having one line of thinking. What about other Russians who thought they could achieve much better and reach their potential in N.A. rather than in their own country? Let's not forget, the NHL is played on smaller rinks than the KHL, SEL, other European leagues, if I'm in the position of a Moscow player that has a fork on the road and is contemplating whether to be a KHL'er with the potential of making to the NHL or a CHL'er with the potential of making to the NHL, I would love to adapt myself to their style of play before making the big jump (basically trial and error) as it would put me in a better position to play and understand the NHL-style (especially when you see that a lot of random KHLers have struggled with small-ice play due to lack of development in the same setting). If Crosby, MacKinnon, etc. believed that the best league for them is Russia's then more power to them, why would I be butthurt that they didn't pick Canada? After all it's their careers, they chose what's best for their careers, I have no say in their decision-making process.

The problem I have is that why should we let the person who wants to come over to play the N.A. style be stopped from doing so? Just because Canadians are butthurt over the fact that they think making the CHL available to import players did them in at the WJC? Don Cherry never once blasted Steve Spott from making idiotic choices and snubbed junior players that played better than the players that he picked. Additionally, Spott is a terrible motivator, his team wasn't even close to ready against USA and Russia. no one blasted Hockey Canada for using such an idiotic method to get the players (basically came down to who was famous and scored the most), and most importantly, Don Cherry didn't even blast the Canadian players for playing like utter garbage against United States and Russia.

And on top of all of that, I don't see Cherry whining about Canadian players who never contributed a cent to Europe yet they're playing in European ice and stealing other people's jobs. So why the butthurt in the first place?
I am going by what a lot of European posters are saying here. Guys who agree with Cherry because they value their national program as much as I value mine.

Most of the people freaking out over this are Canadians and Americans, not Europeans.

I really don't know what butthurt means, by the way. I speak English, not overused internet slang.

ACtually, virtually everyone I know inside of hockey and casual observers have used the reasons you say no one used to explain Canada's losses at the WJC. I know it is more fun to spout off about what you hope people say so that it conforms with your argument, but sorry, it does not work.

No one is whining. I have been saying that the CHL should be acting more as a developmental league for many years. Go find my previous posts about it. Hell, I probably was saying it after we won five tourneys in a row. I could care less about this year's WJC. I am concerned with the opportnities for the development of Canadian players, just as I would expect my Russian friends to be concerned with the development of theirs. I think that a 16 year old Canadian kid who is on the fence of making a junior team in his own hometown should get a shot at doing that without competing against someone from another country halfway around the world. For pros, I feel differently. Every man for himself, and may the best man get the job. I just want my Canadian kids to have the best shot possible. If that makes me evil, call me Satan.

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01-07-2013, 09:14 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I am going by what a lot of European posters are saying here. Guys who agree with Cherry because they value their national program as much as I value mine.

Most of the people freaking out over this are Canadians and Americans, not Europeans.

I really don't know what butthurt means, by the way. I speak English, not overused internet slang.

ACtually, virtually everyone I know inside of hockey and casual observers have used the reasons you say no one used to explain Canada's losses at the WJC. I know it is more fun to spout off about what you hope people say so that it conforms with your argument, but sorry, it does not work.

No one is whining. I have been saying that the CHL should be acting more as a developmental league for many years. Go find my previous posts about it. Hell, I probably was saying it after we won five tourneys in a row. I could care less about this year's WJC. I am concerned with the opportnities for the development of Canadian players, just as I would expect my Russian friends to be concerned with the development of theirs. I think that a 16 year old Canadian kid who is on the fence of making a junior team in his own hometown should get a shot at doing that without competing against someone from another country halfway around the world. For pros, I feel differently. Every man for himself, and may the best man get the job. I just want my Canadian kids to have the best shot possible. If that makes me evil, call me Satan.
Most of the people freaking out over this are Canadians who are looking for a scapegoat for their team's failure to get a medal instead of recognizing that the team and the coaching staff and to an extent Hockey Canada is at fault. Especially when you consider the timing of Cherry's comments, you can't say that he isn't trying to justify it.

Looking at the developmental leagues is simply nitpicking at a non-issue. I believe that everyone regardless of their nationality should get a chance to play in ANY league. Hell, let their talent speak for themselves. If you're a good player and you want to make it to the CHL and you're lights out better than the Canadian, then by all means you've proven yourself and you deserve to play in the league and vice versa. I don't care about who's from where enough to worry about preserving one's position in a developmental league, all I care about as a fan is that you're an exceptional enough player that you deserve an opportunity to play in the league. After all it is a competition, no? Also I couldn't possibly care less about what people say, I'm going off by my opinion of why Canada lost based on the games I've watched, if you disagree just say so instead of accusing me to trying to conform people's views to what I've said.

Did I specifically state "Everyone is whining about X etc ?" No. Reread the sentence where I included the word whining in that post. I used it to show how Don Cherry hates it when Europeans "steal" a Canadian spot in the CHL. However a similar situation, such as in the timeframe that the lockout took place in the NHL, he didn't complain or whine about how Canadians are stealing a European's spot in the league for a short period of time or said how Canadians should stay in the NHL or anything similar. As for your hockey observer statements, I was referring to how people nitpick the CHL to justify Canada's loss in the WJC (something that Cherry seems to be doing) rather than look at the reasons why Canada lost in the first place.

I guess the difference between you and I is that you care about Canadian kids having a shot whereas I care about anyone having a shot as long as their talent has spoken for themselves. After all it is a competition much like the the real world and people searching for jobs in a certain field.

Offtopic: I gotta love how you made an earlier remark about smilies being too condescending for your taste yet you say you don't speak "overused internet slang" but rather you speak "English." Get off your high horse


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01-07-2013, 10:46 PM
  #654
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It is moronic to suggest that the countries that are good enough to beat Canada are being "helped" by Canada: not only do they have very few players in the CHL but the training they would receive at home is similar if not better than the one they get in Canada.
you say yourself there aren't many imports in the CHL, yet many of them are taken very high in the draft. if europe is developing players with "equal or better training" than the CHL, why isn't the draft ratio in the first few rounds more in their favor? shouldn't 7 or 8 of them be taken for every CHL euro? check your own post for moronic statements, oh the irony.

do you think the yakupov's, landeskog's, etc. are a coincidence? the CHL impact on them is of course a fraction compared to their inherent talent, but let's remember the most important obvious fact: they chose to play in the CHL because it is the best junior league in the world. it prepares you for a high level of professional hockey that is unmatched by J20, the (mostly) russian league, or the NCAA. NCAA is probably the best of those three but it's a stretch to consider it developmental junior hockey based on the collegiate ages and small amount of games played.

i mean really, would landeskog have been named youngest NHL captain ever, if he never played in north america? these are the intangibles.

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01-07-2013, 10:48 PM
  #655
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Should've stopped there. The "if not better...", although somewhat subjective, is false. It it undisputed that the CHL is the greatest development league; it's the same argument as NHL vs KHL. The KHL might have some better players, but its not even close to the NHL in terms of overall talent. The same goes for the CHL. The competition is simply put, better. Other leagues cannot compete at this point in time.
++++

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01-07-2013, 11:32 PM
  #656
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Canada has the best development league in the World and people from around the world want to play in it so they can have a better chance to play in the NHL. Period. Canadians benefit from this by being able to enjoy the best pro prospects in the world, night in and night out. Canadians don't have to worry about their best players leaving their home country and playing overseas like the Russians, Swedes and Finns. The trade off is that the best overseas players take roster spots away from some Canadians - but not from the Canadians who are making the Canadian National Team. Don Cherry is the only Canadian I've ever heard whine about this arrangement. That is all.

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01-07-2013, 11:39 PM
  #657
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Why would these players come to play in the CHL instead of at home if this was the case?
Because they think it will help them get drafted.

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01-07-2013, 11:44 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I am still not sure how so many of you think this is anti-European or anti-American. I think it would benefit the leagues in non-Canadian centres to have players stay at home to play. In a weird way, I think some of YOU are being anti-European by saying it is okay to poach their best players for our entertainment purposes. If you really cared about European hockey, I think you would want them to remain in their own systems until such time they are NHL-ready. Even then, they could make a lot of money by staying with their own professional club teams. I would say that is a great alternative. I am not sure why they would want to come here anyway, tbh.
It would benefit the USHL if the CHL banned foreign players and for that, I support Don 100%.

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01-07-2013, 11:57 PM
  #659
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Hmm, do CHL teams not try to push to get their imports/US players (that they hold rights to) to come play for them? I mean, Mikhail Grigorenko is the best Rempart this year and Roy stated that a lot of the team strategy for the past two years was built around Grigs.

You often hear "Team X is trying hard to get player Y to come over."

Player Y is committed to the NCAA but CHL Team X would love to get him (e.g JVR). Or NHL Team X would rather Player Y go to the CHL than the NCAA (e.g Jim O Brien).

I agree that the quality of the CHL is improved by imports/Americans.

And then why are there U.S teams in the "Canadian" Hockey League? I don't think they would think it was very fair if they were told they could only have Canadians on their teams. Sorry Seattle, Portland, Tri-City, Spokane, Everett). The CHL should be re-named not because it has non-Canadian citizens but because it has non-Canadian teams. And the QMJHL should change its name to the Q and Atlantic Provinces MJHL.

Don Cherry is just being Don Cherry and he likes getting reactions and well, his style works.

I admit, I do find him entertaining.

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01-08-2013, 02:21 AM
  #660
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Should've stopped there. The "if not better...", although somewhat subjective, is false. It it undisputed that the CHL is the greatest development league; it's the same argument as NHL vs KHL. The KHL might have some better players, but its not even close to the NHL in terms of overall talent. The same goes for the CHL. The competition is simply put, better. Other leagues cannot compete at this point in time.
Considering other leagues include Allsvenskan and Elitserien amongst others, I think it's safe to say some of them can and do compete, and some are definitely much better leagues than the CHL.

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Uh maybe it has to do with how the NHL is the most competitive league in the world, and god forbid they actually want to improve their development in the juniors so that they can get into the NHL? .
As likely as it may seem, there is also very little evidence that playing in the CHL actually improves your chances of joining the NHL. Obviously some players think it does, but that alone does not make it so.

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01-08-2013, 02:39 AM
  #661
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I think that a 16 year old Canadian kid who is on the fence of making a junior team in his own hometown should get a shot at doing that without competing against someone from another country halfway around the world. For pros, I feel differently. Every man for himself, and may the best man get the job. I just want my Canadian kids to have the best shot possible. If that makes me evil, call me Satan.
You did not answer my question before so I'll ask again. How do you feel about Canadian athletes going abroad to develop in other sports?

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01-08-2013, 02:49 AM
  #662
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you say yourself there aren't many imports in the CHL, yet many of them are taken very high in the draft. if europe is developing players with "equal or better training" than the CHL, why isn't the draft ratio in the first few rounds more in their favor?
One could argue they are drafted a little higher not necessarily because they are better players but because they play in NA.

It is also pretty laughable to claim that Landeskog's status is a result of the development he received in the CHL, when he was already an Elitserien player at 16 even before playing in the CHL (youngest ever player for one of Sweden's top clubs). That the top 16 year old Swede was the top drafted Swede after a stint in the CHL says absolutely nothing about the CHL. Regardless, the next CHL Swede in that draft was #30, and there were 4 Sweden-based Swedes before him, 3 of them in the top 10, so it does not exactly appear that staying home has hurt these guys in the draft as you suggest.

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I am still not sure how so many of you think this is anti-European or anti-American. I think it would benefit the leagues in non-Canadian centres to have players stay at home to play.
Probably true but that wasn't Cherry's point. His argument is that Europeans should stay home because that would hurt the European national teams, thus making Canada more likely to win.

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01-08-2013, 02:51 AM
  #663
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All the best Americans usually go to the National Development Team Program anyways. This year's team had 13 NDTP graduates. Only Galchenyuk and Trocheck were developed by the CHL (meaning they played there as 17 year olds). The rest were developed in the United States. Some went to the CHL after while others chose NCAA but their primary development was with NDTP.

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01-08-2013, 03:09 AM
  #664
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I think that a 16 year old Canadian kid who is on the fence of making a junior team in his own hometown should get a shot at doing that without competing against someone from another country halfway around the world.
And he doesn't?

There are just as many Canadians in the CHL as there are roster spots on Canadian CHL teams. Isn't that only fair? Why in the world would you expect anything more than that?

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01-08-2013, 03:26 AM
  #665
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Should've stopped there. The "if not better...", although somewhat subjective, is false. It it undisputed that the CHL is the greatest development league; it's the same argument as NHL vs KHL. The KHL might have some better players, but its not even close to the NHL in terms of overall talent. The same goes for the CHL. The competition is simply put, better. Other leagues cannot compete at this point in time.
This is not true at all. The CHL is the best because Canada produces the most players. In terms of actual development it is not "undisputed" that the CHL is the best place to develop. Plenty of great players developed elsewhere. It's certainly the top league in the world for 17 year olds if that's your point. Most players can't even play in the NCAA until after they are drafted so that's why so many star players go to the CHL. However, from that point on the NCAA is roughly on par as far as "developing" prospects. If you're ready to be a Professional at 18-20 the CHL is the best place for you. If you are ready to be a Professional when you're ready (any time from 19 to 24 essentially) the NCAA is probably better.

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01-08-2013, 04:04 AM
  #666
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Close-minded for sure and afraid of change or anything "different". These are the type of people I try to avoid hanging around...

His "point" is that the CHL shouldn't allow europeans (and I'm assuming Americans as well lol) into their league because of the fear that it makes other countries' national teams more talented... really? Does that not sound ridiculous to everyone? And the whole "taking spots away from hard working Canadian families" is a joke... what do they allow 2 non-North American players on each team? Big deal. Same crap happens here in the US. We all should be welcoming talented hockey players with open arms no matter WHERE they're from. I don't think Don Cherry has realized that we're all from the same planet yet...

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01-08-2013, 09:30 AM
  #667
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Let's try to look at this from another point of view.

You have just graduated from university top of yor class in engineering.You worked your butt off all through high school and university,countless hours studying,part time work to support yourself and your family has been spent tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on your education.

One of the top engineering firms in the country has a job opening looking for a new graduate,you figure you are a shoe in.When you show up for the interview the are dozens of candidates with great qualifications,but with your grades you have no worries.

In through the door comes the brilliant graduate engineer from China,his grades are better,he's smarter and because the company hiring doesn't have very many foreiners working there he is hired.More so they can call themselves a racially diverse company than just his qualifications.

Of course this is good for the engineer from China,good for the company,but what about you and the other graduates that have put their whole lives into their education.You are all devastated that this person walks in from overseas and takes the start of your career away from you.

And what about the engineers currently employed by the firm,the new guy is brilliant,making them all look bad.

This is how a 15 year old kid feels,devastated,his parents are appalled ,he was the best in his league,they have spent so much time and hard earned money to make him one of the best.Put yourselves in this players and families shoes for 10 seconds and maybe you can sort of see where DC is coming from.

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01-08-2013, 09:53 AM
  #668
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This is how a 15 year old kid feels,devastated,his parents are appalled ,he was the best in his league,they have spent so much time and hard earned money to make him one of the best.Put yourselves in this players and families shoes for 10 seconds and maybe you can sort of see where DC is coming from.
It's called life.

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01-08-2013, 09:58 AM
  #669
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Of course this is good for the engineer from China,good for the company,but what about you and the other graduates that have put their whole lives into their education.You are all devastated that this person walks in from overseas and takes the start of your career away from you.

And what about the engineers currently employed by the firm,the new guy is brilliant,making them all look bad.
Is this serious? Are we really supposed to feel bad for the guy who was beaten out by a better applicant? That's laughable. If he's so good he will find the next best job and that will be the end of it.

I mean are you really implying the the worse applicant should be hired or what?

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This is how a 15 year old kid feels,devastated,his parents are appalled ,he was the best in his league,they have spent so much time and hard earned money to make him one of the best.Put yourselves in this players and families shoes for 10 seconds and maybe you can sort of see where DC is coming from.
That whining still does not make any sense. That guy's parents' sense of entitlement is really despicable.

Plus you once again forgot the part where not one CHL roster spot is lost for Canadian players: they have exactly the same number of roster spots available to them as the teams in their country are able to offer. Why do you think you are entitled to more than that? In the reality the guy in your example is applying at a foreing company himself.

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01-08-2013, 10:20 AM
  #670
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I mean are you really implying the the worse applicant should be hired or what?
I think he's implying the same thing Cherry is, that FOREIGN applicant shouldn't be hired, even if he is better right now and shows a lot more promise of actually excelling at his job in the future.

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01-08-2013, 10:25 AM
  #671
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I think he's implying the same thing Cherry is, that FOREIGN applicant shouldn't be hired, even if he is better right now and shows a lot more promise of actually excelling at his job in the future.
Let me guess, Canadian applicants at American teams should still be hired, right?

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01-08-2013, 11:00 AM
  #672
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"That's life".True yes life is unfair,but these are CHILDREN we are talking about,they may look like men but they are not,they are 15 years old,not 18-20 year olds like a NCAA eligable player,or 25 like a graduate.


I didn't say the parents were"entitaled".I said devastated that their child's hard work was for nothing.

And I still wonder who is actually better off in the long run.No imports would apply to all teams so the playing ground stays even.Without import superstars the rest of the players look better.A homegrown talent is displaced.The country of origin looses a great talent.The only benefactor of the import rule is the import player himself.Why should the good of the one be put before the good of the many.

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01-08-2013, 11:04 AM
  #673
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I think he's implying the same thing Cherry is, that FOREIGN applicant shouldn't be hired, even if he is better right now and shows a lot more promise of actually excelling at his job in the future.
Why would the company doing the hiring care about this guy excelling in the future,he's only working there long enough to gain some experience,build a name for himself and move on in a year or two.

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01-08-2013, 11:12 AM
  #674
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I didn't say the parents were"entitaled".I said devastated that their child's hard work was for nothing.
F them. Their child was ready to take somebody else's job all the same.

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01-08-2013, 11:29 AM
  #675
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Why would the company doing the hiring care about this guy excelling in the future,he's only working there long enough to gain some experience,build a name for himself and move on in a year or two.
Because it's good advertisement for their business if the player ends up making the NHL. Nobody cares about some average player who might play a couple years in the CHL as the 7th dman and then call it quits.

Was there a point to this sob story, other than the hurt feelings of some 16yo with crazy parents?

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