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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Everything Canada (goaltending, coaching, future)

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Yes 83 55.70%
No 41 27.52%
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Old
01-06-2013, 08:59 AM
  #651
DamonDRW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadri43 View Post
The best forward in the tournament was easily RNH hands down.
Only one team Canada player could have made the US team. Wow your knowledge of hockey is limited.
USA played highly skilled speedy style with team first mentality. Are you sure guys like Strome or Sheifle could play this type of game? Only RNH. Huberdeau is a close second but he barely kept his balance and fell too many times. As an example compare Jones and Hamilton. One is big _speedy_ player with excellent shot while the other one is just a big player with excellent shot. Feel the difference? Hamilton wouldn't be a good fit on that USA team.

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Old
01-06-2013, 09:01 AM
  #652
DuklaNation
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The anti-Canada vibe on this board can be nauseating at times.

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01-06-2013, 09:02 AM
  #653
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
the best thing for the rest of the hockey nations is that Canadians do beliave that there is some external problem to their recent problems at WJHC. At the same time what team USA did to them in this tournament should be very similar to some old Canadian fans. It is called russian style: speed, creative passing plays, and individual skills. That what Russians successfully used against them since 1972.

Look at the recent WJHC Canada teams -- all they played a a kind of good machine. They know where to pass safely, what to do safely etc. Sometimes such style leads to wins, especially, if the other team is making mistakes and refs allow to fully utilize size advantage. However, once they face a truly creative and speedy teams like USA this tournament or Russia two years back they find themselves in troubles and size becomes a liability instead of advantage. Remeber how many times americans passed instead of shooting from good positions? Yes, sometimes it fails but next time it creates a havoc among teenage defenseman as this is something they were not taught to defend.
I am not a Habs fan by any means, but I think/agree what is usually termed as Russian style hockey was actually Montreal Canadiens Scotty Bowman hockey before that. The days of Lafleur, Shutt, Lemaire, Robinson, Lapointe, and Savard. Canadians were doing Russian style hockey before the Russians, sorry I may be showing my healthy Canadian conceit again.

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01-06-2013, 09:09 AM
  #654
Saul Goodman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
the best thing for the rest of the hockey nations is that Canadians do beliave that there is some external problem to their recent problems at WJHC. At the same time what team USA did to them in this tournament should be very similar to some old Canadian fans. It is called russian style: speed, creative passing plays, and individual skills. That what Russians successfully used against them since 1972.

Look at the recent WJHC Canada teams -- all they played a a kind of good machine. They know where to pass safely, what to do safely etc. Sometimes such style leads to wins, especially, if the other team is making mistakes and refs allow to fully utilize size advantage. However, once they face a truly creative and speedy teams like USA this tournament or Russia two years back they find themselves in troubles and size becomes a liability instead of advantage. Remeber how many times americans passed instead of shooting from good positions? Yes, sometimes it fails but next time it creates a havoc among teenage defenseman as this is something they were not taught to defend.
this post is so off base it's laughable. did you even watch this tournament this year? canada and the US play a very similar style, the fact you think the americans played the same as the russians shows you lack a basic understanding of how the game is played.

infact, canada decided to go with speed and skill as opposed to size when selecting their team this year. even the americans had bigger forwards, which goes directly against what you're trying to say.

i find this all hillarious. it's been pointed out with direct quotes from the article that the writer was giving other teams credit yet there's still posters in here whining incessantly. i guess if it doesn't fit the image of evil hockey canada and their imaginary sense of entitlement you can just skip over it, am i right?

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01-06-2013, 09:10 AM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I am not a Habs fan by any means, but I think what is usually termed as Russian style hockey was actually Montreal Canadiens Scotty Bowman hockey before that. The days of Lafleur, Shutt, Lemaire, Robinson, Lapointe, and Savard. Canadians were doing Russian style hockey before the Russians, sorry I may be showing my healthy Canadian conceit again.
That's right. That Monthreal Canadians team of middle 70s played exactly like I tried to describe. I watched that New Year's Eve game between CSKA and Canadians. I would say it was one of the best hockey games I ever seen. Still USSR player that style in 1972 and continued to play like that in 80s. The problem is that you need special players to play like that. Canadians didn't have them in 80s and started to play like every other team in the NHL.

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01-06-2013, 09:11 AM
  #656
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Originally Posted by WaltWhitman View Post
Most people probably didn't read it, because it was too long and not interesting information.
Thanks for saving me the time to look up the definition of "ignorance".

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01-06-2013, 09:23 AM
  #657
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infact, canada decided to go with speed and skill as opposed to size when selecting their team this year. even the americans had bigger forwards, which goes directly against what you're trying to say.
And once again a Canadian talking about individual players not a team as a whole.

Meanwhile, what kind of skill you're talking about if your most skilled forward MacKinnon were spending 5 minutes on the ice while your coach giving ice time to guys like Strome, Jenner, Danault, Shiefle? Take a look who were most creative guys in team USA, Trouba, Jones, McCabe, Gaudreau, Grimaldi, Vesey. Some of them just happen to be big, that wasn't a point for choosing and playing them.

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01-06-2013, 09:26 AM
  #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
USA played highly skilled speedy style with team first mentality. Are you sure guys like Strome or Sheifle could play this type of game? Only RNH. Huberdeau is a close second but he barely kept his balance and fell too many times. As an example compare Jones and Hamilton. One is big _speedy_ player with excellent shot while the other one is just a big player with excellent shot. Feel the difference? Hamilton wouldn't be a good fit on that USA team.
No way would any team turn down the skill of the guys you mentioned. I acknowledge that as a team we did not excel but we have the best individual players and it is not even close.

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01-06-2013, 09:26 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by YARR123 View Post
Not many words about USA being the most dominant team in the tournament. Why not just face the fact that Canada was the 4th best team in this tournament and move on?
They werent exactly dominant, they lost to both Canada and the Russians in round robin play. Having said that they won when it mattered so yes they were the best team congratulations to the US.

The article doesnt give excuses. It does at the end point out the one thing the USA did better in building a team, wait until the last minute to finalize the roster. The reason it gets mentioned? because Canada does care about this tournament and when we dont win it's expected we are going to strive to be better next year. We're not just going to say well we lost guess there is nothing we could have done better. This isnt about excuses this is about reasons and how to improve going forward.

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01-06-2013, 09:31 AM
  #660
Saul Goodman
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
And once again a Canadian talking about individual players not a team as a whole.

Meanwhile, what kind of skill you're talking about if your most skilled forward MacKinnon were spending 5 minutes on the ice while your coach giving ice time to guys like Strome, Jenner, Danault, Shiefle? Take a look who were most creative guys in team USA, Trouba, Jones, McCabe, Gaudreau, Grimaldi, Vesey. Some of them just happen to be big, that wasn't a point for choosing and playing them.
you were the one that tried to paint the entire team with one brush, speaking as if canada's team consisted of bigger players who lack speed and skill, which i simply pointed out is not the case. how exactly is that speaking of individual players? not once did i mention any players by name.

i can't speak as to why the canadian coach played mckinnon or not. i also see no problem with giving strome and scheifle more ice time. they're not exacly third/fourth line grinders... unless i'm missing something here?

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Old
01-06-2013, 09:34 AM
  #661
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I read it on TSN earlier. Didn't find it paticularly insightful. He was just throwing out other possible reasons(excuses) for a dismal showing and pointing out different approaches other nations take to gear up for WJC.

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01-06-2013, 09:40 AM
  #662
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
The anti-Canada vibe on this board can be nauseating at times.
No kidding.

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01-06-2013, 09:44 AM
  #663
Saul Goodman
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i'm having trouble wrapping my head around all these negative comments towards the article. after missing out on a medal for the first time in 15 years it's only natural to ask what went wrong this year. were you expecting an article praising other teams and trash talking the canadians? this is a canadian writer and a canadian sports network.

it's been pointed out at least once or twice that credit was given to the 3 teams that placed higher than the canadian this year. what more do you want? the reality of the situation is the readers of this article aren't interested in what the other teams are doing, they want to know what went wrong an how they can do better next time. which is the whole point of going to the tournament in the first place. to win.

maybe that's the difference between canadian and european fans. maybe sitting around and saying "oh well, we got beat by the better team. nothing we can do about it" is okay with european fans. as canadians we're more interested in hearing what can be done to improve next years team.

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01-06-2013, 09:55 AM
  #664
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I thought it was a good article as well. I thought Bob covered all the bases. To me, Canada should be the favorite at the event every year, and when they don't win something unusual has happened. That's not to discredit other teams (such as the U.S.)-just a fact. That said, there are a handful of countries that can be expected to CHALLENGE for gold every year, and if they do win that shouldn't be a surprise nor send Canadians into a tailspin. It's a very short and intense tournament that relies on single-elimination format. You can be dominant (or close to it) all tourney long and than fall short in the game that matters and voila-you're done. It happened to Canada this year, it happened to the U.S. in Buffalo when they met Canada in the semis coming off a bye. Of deeper concern appears to be Canada's "failures" over a four year stretch. There are significant questions about goaltender and coaching quality that has to be addressed.


Good post - I'm always pumped when people understand the nature of the WJC.

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01-06-2013, 09:55 AM
  #665
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
The anti-Canada vibe on this board can be nauseating at times.
It's kind of crazy isn't it?

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01-06-2013, 09:55 AM
  #666
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Originally Posted by maroon 6 View Post
A 6-7 game tourny does not decide which team is better...
Unless Canada wins then all of us Canadians are bragging and chest thumping, correct?


In this "6-7" tourny when the games were big Canada lost. Fair and square.

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01-06-2013, 10:01 AM
  #667
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
Well, I spent 5 minutes reading this. It seems, according to Mckenzie, this year's excuse is the way selection of the players has been performed. It is completely in line with Canadian perception of hockey - we cannot lose due to worse hockey team. Okay. Nothing new.
But it is a worse team, becuase of how it was selected. I don't see the issue.

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01-06-2013, 10:12 AM
  #668
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Global warming is coming. We won't have any ice on the Earth in 2030. They gonna play hockey on the grass and currently Holland is the best at it.
Holland is gonna be underwater

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01-06-2013, 10:23 AM
  #669
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
Well, I spent 5 minutes reading this. It seems, according to Mckenzie, this year's excuse is the way selection of the players has been performed. It is completely in line with Canadian perception of hockey - we cannot lose due to worse hockey team. Okay. Nothing new.
Considering the selection camp reaked of politics and looked more like the selecting a parent-coached Bantam A2 team, I'd say it's a legitimate issue to be brought up.

Nowhere do I read that if it was done differently, Canada would have won gold. God forbid a major Canadian sports-media outlet focuses on what was wrong and what can be done in the future to prevent a lackluster showing instead of kissing every other countries *****.

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01-06-2013, 10:32 AM
  #670
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Originally Posted by Rocko604 View Post
Considering the selection camp reaked of politics and looked more like the selecting a parent-coached Bantam A2 team, I'd say it's a legitimate issue to be brought up.

Nowhere do I read that if it was done differently, Canada would have won gold. God forbid a major Canadian sports-media outlet focuses on what was wrong and what can be done in the future to prevent a lackluster showing instead of kissing every other countries *****.
Agreed. I was kind of shocked when Matt Puempel wasn't selected.

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01-06-2013, 11:15 AM
  #671
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I am reminded of an article a guy named Earl McRae wrote right after the 1996 World Cup of hockey. I can't find it for the life of me so I'll paraphrase. He said that Americans are soon going to be taking up spots in the NHL and the best stars in the world will be American. I remember him saying something like "And you'd better get used to it." He compared the soon to be dominance of American hockey like Pacman "gobbling up" the ghosts or something along those lines. That was 17 years ago. The OP is asking about 2030 which is 17 years from now. The best talent we have ever seen from America happened in the 1990s and for a stretch that core was good enough to win tournaments.

It was supposed to happen in 1980 after the Miracle on Ice. Then Gretzky going south was supposed to get every kid to play hockey. Then the World Cup in 1996. Oh, but if they won Gold in 2002 on home ice we REALLY would have seen a spike.

Well, we're still waiting. I don't think I have seen such a low amount of elite Americans in the NHL since the early 1980s. Granted the Americans won the Gold in the WJC the other day and there are some blue chippers but if the best American in the world is Zach Parise then where is this dominance coming from that we are supposed to see?

Russia has had better eras than this one. Finland has been about the same for 20 years. Same with the Czechs. Same with Sweden for that matter. The first European to go 1st overall in the draft was Sundin in 1989. We've seen high Euro draft picks for over 20 years now. I am not sure where this spike is supposed to be since Canada has comfortably had 55% of the NHL population for quite some time and it hasn't exactly been sinking.

17 years is not that long away. I don't see much changing.
Sorry Big Phil, but your factually based comments are no match for Canada's recent fourth place at the WJC. For USA to surpass Canada for example, since that is the easiest comparison, they would need to basically double their NHL calibre players. At the elite player level, they would have to do more than double their production. It would be extremely difficult to do this in only 17 years. Other countries don't have the player numbers to take a legitimate shot at Canada. Anyone who thinks China is going to take over the spot should check out how they are doing in basketball, a sport which is actually quite popular in the country.

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01-06-2013, 12:11 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by Kadri43 View Post
Other teams play better as a group than did Canada. However, Canada always had and always will have better individual players. There is only a handfull of players who could even make Team Canada from other nations. There is not even debatable.
Jones, Trouba, McCabe, Murphy and Gibson would all make Team Canada pretty easily. I don't know how you could watch the Tournament and argue against that. Take out Murphy, Rielly, Oullett, Reinhart and Subban.

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01-06-2013, 12:19 PM
  #673
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Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
Bob Mckenzie always has been level headed and intelligent. It's always the comments at the bottom of the article's that are a hilarious.
Except when HFBoards posters annoy him enough and he calls them assclowns.

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01-06-2013, 12:27 PM
  #674
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Jones, Trouba, McCabe, Murphy and Gibson would all make Team Canada pretty easily. I don't know how you could watch the Tournament and argue against that. Take out Murphy, Rielly, Oullett, Reinhart and Subban.
Only Jones, Trouba and Ginson would have. There is no way McCabe and Connor Murphy would have, regardless of how well they played this tournement.

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01-06-2013, 12:29 PM
  #675
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Agreed. I was kind of shocked when Matt Puempel wasn't selected.
I don't think there were too many people who expected Puempel to even be a candidate for this team. I got the impression from quick-reading the BM article that he was more suggesting it would have helped to carry a few extra players a little longer as part of the selection process, as a few teams did, rather than narrow down quickly from the selection camp wrap-up, as the standing tradition/policy is. Not that there was really any issue with the players chosen specifically. Just it would have given more flexibility, for example in the case of the suspension, or with injuries, without having to fly somebody new in who had already been "cut" (see McNeil vs. Hudon). Not as an issue for criticizing Canada's past process either, just as a hint at something to look forward in evolving the process for the future.

Mostly the BM article just pointed out the fallacies of those criticizing/hindsighting the various fall-guys in the 4th place finish. I didn't read at all that he was saying anything negative against any aspect of this team, its selection, coaching, players, or about any other teams in the tournament. Just pointing out that Team Canada fans are basically silly to overreact in any of the standard ways we've already seen. Politely. We *are* assclowns as WJC Team Canada fans, collectively, generally, basically.

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