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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Everything Canada (goaltending, coaching, future)

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:23 PM
  #126
Mr Forever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Yes I realize it's expensive, but it's not only rich kids playing, there's simply not enough rich kids to prove your point. Maybe in Toronto it's the elite that can send their kids to special schools. But I have nephews in an elite hockey school in Alberta and their family is not elite or wealthy.

It can be done and is done all the time.

Not saying it isn't helpful and a sport dominated by families with cash, but it's not only those kids as my argument stated all along.
The middle class kid making it and playing a high level is the exception not the rule.

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:25 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by toewsintangibles View Post
From dominating everyone in the last lockout and going on a 5 year streak for gold to losing and being dominated by the US 5-1 in the semi finals of a best on best WJC.. what has happened?
I think a lot of the blame for our losses can be put at the feet of some of the poor coaches we've chosen. We take the very best players possible at the u20 age group but then every year we pick a different coach based on whatever lame hockey canada politics are in effect that year. I don't understand why we don't get somebody like Brian Kilrea to be the permanent HC every year instead of just plucking a flavor of the week out of one of the three leagues.

I think another factor is that our competition is increasingly developing their players in the CHL. Look how many americans were CHL products, you never would have seen that 10 years ago. They used to blacklist the guys who went junior instead of college. It's not that Canada is falling behind, the others are catching up.

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01-03-2013, 12:28 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Combination of factors:
1. Exaggeration of impact of recent losses due to a 'gold or bust' mentality
2. Improvement of European development programs
3. Mediocre coaching in recent years
4. Structure of WJC tournament means a single bad game can have a tremendous impact on your success in the tournament
Well said. Good post.

In the late 1990's, our country had a summit because we thought our hockey program was failing. The result... 2 Olympic Golds, a Gold at the World Cup and 5 Golds at the WJR's.

Like I said elsewhere, after dominating the WJR's we put a target on our back and other countries have taken their best shots. It a one loss and you're out playoff format at the WJR's, it has taken its toll.

We are fine.

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:29 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Yes I realize it's expensive, but it's not only rich kids playing, there's simply not enough rich kids to prove your point. Maybe in Toronto it's the elite that can send their kids to special schools. But I have nephews in an elite hockey school in Alberta and their family is not elite or wealthy.

It can be done and is done all the time.

Not saying it isn't helpful and a sport dominated by families with cash, but it's not only those kids as my argument stated all along.
The average Canadian salary is just under $50000 yr.You can't tell me that there are many people that can afford 1/3 of there income to cover hockey.Anyone earning <$100000 is SOL.

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:31 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
Well said. Good post.

In the late 1990's, our country had a summit because we thought our hockey program was failing. The result... 2 Olympic Golds, a Gold at the World Cup and 5 Golds at the WJR's.

Like I said elsewhere, after dominating the WJR's we put a target on our back and other countries have taken their best shots. It a one loss and you're out playoff format at the WJR's, it has taken its toll.

We are fine.
No offense, but it's not a surprise a -one loss- tourney is magical thing. All tournaments in all sports are one loss do or die situations. I guess it has to do with this best of 7 nature we have from hockey.

Maybe it's time to turn the gun around and take a target on their back. That's what we did in 1999. Other nations then re-invented themselves. Its' time to reinvent ourselves.

Cycles right?

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:33 PM
  #131
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WRT hockey as an expensive sport;

The expensiveness of hockey is mostly due to ice time costs. Equipment is going to cost you a bit, but if you're thrifty, it isn't unbearable. You can't, on the other hand, avoid high ice costs, especially in large cities where one ice pad services 10000+ people.

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01-03-2013, 12:33 PM
  #132
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John Gibson is what happened.

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:43 PM
  #133
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Something about the American developmental system has led them to becoming having better technical skills at the junior level. This seems to be consistently the case for the past few years and is extremely noticeable whenever I watch Canada play the USA. Despite the fact that Canada has more "talented" players in these tournaments, American players always seem to impress me more with their combination of speed and skill than the Canadians do. Hockey Canada needs to address this.

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:48 PM
  #134
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Two other points to make:

Unless your last name is Orr, Gretzky, or Crosby, 17 year olds should not be on Team Canada for this tournament - it is too competitive now. I would rather see a couple of more solid-prospect 19.5 year olds on the team for this event. Two years is a big difference at this stage of development.

As well, I like the point another poster made about some of our best Major Midgets being squeezed-out of the CHL in favour of imports. That should not be ...

To reiterate, Molly-coddling Hockey Moms are an increasingly big problem in Canada. It's politically incorrect, but it's true !

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:53 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redscotter View Post
Two other points to make:

Unless your last name is Orr, Gretzky, or Crosby, 17 year olds should not be on Team Canada for this tournament - it is too competitive now. I would rather see a couple of more solid-prospect 19.5 year olds on the team for this event. Two years is a big difference at this stage of development.

As well, I like the point another poster made about some of our best Major Midgets being squeezed-out of the CHL in favour of imports. That should not be ...

To reiterate, Molly-coddling Hockey Moms are an increasingly big problem in Canada. It's politically incorrect, but it's true !
I have big problems with that mentality - the players that will help us most should be there, irrespective of their age. Drouin was a very effective player for us - and I think MacKinnon would have been moreso had he been utilized properly.

I don't like the Hockey Canada mentality that if you've gone once, you're guaranteed a spot next year - and don't like some of the 19 year olds it brought (MacNeill, Lipon, Murphy, Ritchie) - when there would have been other players who would have been more effective.

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01-03-2013, 12:58 PM
  #136
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Way too much overreaction here. The team **** the bed one game, all of a sudden there's a junior development problem? The team will still be playing for a medal for the 15th straight year. In a short tournament this stuff happens. Call it bad coaching, or a goalie having a bad game, bad team selection or whatever you want, it will happen. It will especially happen when the other countries start to catch up and take the tournament more seriously themselves. This tournament isn't as easy to win as Canada made it seem for those 5 years. Just look at the seven previous years as a testament to that.

Even if you look back at the second 'drive for five' how easily things could have gone the other way. Toews misses one of his shootout tries. That Russian doesn't ice the puck in Ottawa. OT game goes the other way... Of course before that there were some one goal games that Canada lost in it's seven year drought, some OT losses and some semi-final shootout losses as well. The potential differences between 0 gold medals and 10 gold medals isn't actually that big.



You can have bad junior teams (such are our expectations when anything other than gold is 'bad') and still have good junior development. Hell, there are a couple members of Canada's worst junior team ever who have Olympic gold medals, a couple others who have been key members of Stanley Cup teams. There are a bunch of players who never make it to a team in part because the timing didn't work out (they were 17 in a good year, then made the NHL as an 18 year old) who are still a part of Canada's development system.

Hell, of all the lockout "dream" teams this is about as weak as it can get. Why couldn't we have lucked out like this in 2010? Stamkos, Tavares, Duchene, Kane, O'Reilly, Myers...oh what could have been. But all those guys didn't play, the team lost, all of a sudden it is the start of our 'decline' in player development.




So to sum up: what has happened to our player development?
-Luck
-Timing
-Nature of the tournament
-High Expectations
-Other countries not being bad at hockey

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Old
01-03-2013, 01:00 PM
  #137
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Canada needs to start putting a ton more emphasis on speed for the big ice, especially on that back end. Hamilton was way to big and slow for ice of this size.

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Old
01-03-2013, 01:04 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
Well first off, I've been following the juniors since 1990. I've been keeping tract of stats since then to and expert commentary. Finally, recently I've done a complete World Junior history review dating back all the way to the tournament up till 2000.

So "really" yes.. really.

You have many generalizations wrong.

- Czechoslovakia was a strong country because they were under a structured country, with lots of funding for hockey. When the countries broke, the Czechs had a decade or so of strong juniors before their junior system started falling apart. Slovakia has remained fairly up and down.

- I remember a quote from USA Hockey a long time ago. "We didn't know what the Juionrs were". This was back in 1998. Even if my memory serves me wrong on the quote; certainly then USA hockey up until about 2002 were a weak organization in the junior camp. They did produce quality talent, they did finish on the off occasion 2nd place. Overall though, they had 4th to 7th spots. It wasn't until the NTDP program took off they started getting strides. The NTDP also had a second phase which is what we see today. The early NTDP program was still shaky, but now after many revisions over the years (Americans constantly developing it, not just sitting on their backs saying "hey we have a good program") they have been fine tuning it. The excellent young units you see out there, is from years of hard work to get a system in place.

- Sweden was dominant in the WJC up until the end of the last decade. They went for over a decade of being average at best. Even TSN a few years ago mentioned this. It wasn't until recently, 2007 and on, that Sweden began changing their philosophy.

- Finland has decreased in talent. You notice it trickling into their International games. I'll be honest though, I'm not sure where they are headed, haven't been keeping track with them.

- You mention population growth, while articles mention that population growth from other countries have no interest in Hockey. Others have mentioned that Hockey growth is stagnanting because it's too expensive. Population growth has to do with immigration in this country, and most immigrants are looking at soccer, basketball and cricket as their alternative sport.

- Finally, competition? You mention the same teams over the last 20 years that are still remotely competitive today. Where has competition taken place? What new countries have come to compete (Just the swiss)? It's still relatively the same circle of nations that's been competing the last 50 years. You wouldn't call women's hockey competitive, would you if only USA and Canada were winning?
All you did here was prove my argument further... Was that your intention? Because if so I don't understand...

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Old
01-03-2013, 01:05 PM
  #139
Jason MacIsaac
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This is a funny thread. Because Canada isn't dominant enough to ensure a win in a 1 loss elimination tournament there must be something wrong with their development?

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01-03-2013, 01:22 PM
  #140
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This may be nonsense to most but to me there is far too much "Hollywood" going on for Canada in the world Jr's lately. I'm not sure if it's arrogance or what but overall the players just seem different. Is it they feel too comfortable? Are all of these interviews mid game having an impact in their overall mindset. Do we really need to see what type of drill Ryan Murphy does to improve his footwork?

Get some hard ass Sutter or other old school coach in there and have these kids realize making team Canada and then showing up doesn't give you jack. They haven't won anything yet. The gatorade commercials and press conferences can follow after a gold medal.

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01-03-2013, 01:29 PM
  #141
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This may be nonsense to most but to me there is far too much "Hollywood" going on for Canada in the world Jr's lately. I'm not sure if it's arrogance or what but overall the players just seem different. Is it they feel too comfortable? Are all of these interviews mid game having an impact in their overall mindset. Do we really need to see what type of drill Ryan Murphy does to improve his footwork?

Get some hard ass Sutter or other old school coach in there and have these kids realize making team Canada and then showing up doesn't give you jack. They haven't won anything yet. The gatorade commercials and press conferences can follow after a gold medal.
Well said !

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Old
01-03-2013, 01:30 PM
  #142
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Drouin didn't get it done today.

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01-03-2013, 01:31 PM
  #143
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I haven't followed the full discussion but the OP's statement is pretty premature. Canada goes down in a single game elimination tourament and is still playing for a medal and all of a sudden they are on the decline? As most people have pointed out its because other countries are putting together wolrd class programs too but Canada is still by far leading the development pack. As much as people hate bettman he still remains credited for bringing the sport up in the US as much as the current lockout has hurt, ice hockey had been poised to start climbing the ranks and challenging Americas love affair with baseball football basketball nascar. Not sure where the lockout will leave that but I think the boost from interested kids and better programs is evident in the USA success in these tournoments.

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01-03-2013, 01:41 PM
  #144
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I feel as though every year they lose, they blame x or x, and say they were going to blame it before the tournament. Its nothing, but excuses.

They lost for the same reason Russia lost. Individuals don't win games.

The US is flourishing under a very close knit development system. At times this close knit development system has been bashed, but using players that have played with one another is a smart thing.

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01-03-2013, 01:41 PM
  #145
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At this point I'd rather see a full-time coach who does both the U20 and U18 teams. From May-January they're focused on the World Junior Tournament, which would also include coaching all six games of the Subway Series. After that and up until April, they get the best team together they can for the U18 tournament. Then repeat.

Don't know if they have them or not, but full time U20 scouts should also be implemented.

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01-03-2013, 01:41 PM
  #146
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Nothing wrong with Canadian hockey development, we have the best junior league and WJC infrastruture - bar none.

You want to ensure continued Canadian domination? Remove the influx of US and European skaters in the CHL. Other nations have as many athletes, if not more, than Canada. What they have always lacked is a competitive development league that the CHL graciously offers. Voila.

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01-03-2013, 01:42 PM
  #147
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[QUOTE=markrander87;57068235]This may be nonsense to most but to me there is far too much "Hollywood" going on for Canada in the world Jr's lately. I'm not sure if it's arrogance or what but overall the players just seem different. Is it they feel too comfortable? Are all of these interviews mid game having an impact in their overall mindset. Do we really need to see what type of drill Ryan Murphy does to improve his footwork?

Get some hard ass Sutter or other old school coach in there and have these kids realize making team Canada and then showing up doesn't give you jack. They haven't won anything yet. The gatorade commercials and press conferences can follow after a gold medal.[/QUOTE

Agree

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01-03-2013, 01:46 PM
  #148
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2007 - Alzner, Parent, Letang, Bourdon, Russell, Staal, Franson(Gold)
2008 - Alzner, Doughty, Subban, Schenn, Hickey, Godfrey, Pyett(Gold)
2009 - Subban, Pietrangelo, Myers, Teubert, Hickey, Ellis, Goloubef(Gold)

Now we jump to the current "drought" of medals

2010 - Pietrangelo, De Haan, Cowen, Ellis, Hamonic, Scandella, Teubert(Silver)
2011 - Cowen, Despres, Ellis, De Haan, Barrie, Gudbranson, Olsen(Silver)
2012 - Beaulieu, Murray, Harrington, Hamilton, Pysyk, Murray, Oleksiak(Bronze)
2013 - Hamilton, Rielly, Ouellet, Harrington, Wotherspoon, Murphy, Reinhart(TBD)

That's what happened. You can just as easily look at coaching, but the problem has never been skill up front. It's tough to say what difference a guy like Murray would have had, but that said. . . There are no excuses, every team has to compensate for deficiencies.

The Americans lack that extremely high end skill up front and made up for it with Offense from the blue line, fast puck movement and chemistry.

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01-03-2013, 01:49 PM
  #149
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Good idea, but the major problem is that the main focal point for Canada's U-18 program happens in the summer. The Ivan Hlinka Tournament has much more stock with Hockey Canada than the U18 Worlds, because they can field a full team. He's have to coach U-18 level from January-August. Although, really that can be double duty, as those kids are going to be on the WJHC team in many instances a year or two down the road.

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01-03-2013, 01:50 PM
  #150
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I don't think there's anything wrong with our program; As others have pointed out, we have a great record over the years in this one game sudden death tournament (once you hit the medal round). What is different this year is that with the lockout still going, we really had all of our best players available, which doesn't usually happen. A lot of us believed (foolishly) that this year Canada would sweep all before them as in 1995 and 2005. In years that we lost we could always fall back upon 'if we had player X who's currently in the NHL, it would have been different.' Now we don't even have that trusty excuse anymore!!

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