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Penguins 2013 (and beyond) lineup discussion | Contract chart in Post #1

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01-13-2013, 03:08 PM
  #751
MrBurghundy
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Shelly Anderson ‏@pgshelly
#Penguins GM Shero said he will let situation with glut of D work itself out in camp.

Shelly Anderson ‏@pgshelly
Shero said all testing went well, no injuries going into camp. #Penguins

Shelly Anderson ‏@pgshelly
Shero said Malkin made it to Pittsburgh but won't skate today. #Penguins

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01-13-2013, 03:08 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Fair point, and honestly the only way we're going to know if I'm right is if Shero stands relatively pat again. If he makes a move, we won't know if he was looking for the right gamble OR if his being forced to move Staal changed the equation.

That said, we've been talking about the heat being on Bylsma. It should be on Shero too. IMO, this team goes out too early again, and Bylsma is gone and Shero is on thin ice. I don't know if Bylsma will coach like a guy who knows that; I suspect (hope ) that Shero will manage like a guy who does.
agreed.

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01-13-2013, 03:08 PM
  #753
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if you pick them up then they have to be in Pittsburgh not WBS.
Oh, okay. Never mind then.

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01-13-2013, 03:09 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I didn't see it as THAT risky, although I did see it as riskier than the Gologoski deal. That's all.
Just curious Kirk, outside of Holmgren and maybe one or two other GM's, who would you say is more risky than Shero?

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01-13-2013, 03:10 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Shelly Anderson ‏@pgshelly
#Penguins GM Shero said he will let situation with glut of D work itself out in camp.

Shelly Anderson ‏@pgshelly
Shero said all testing went well, no injuries going into camp. #Penguins

Shelly Anderson ‏@pgshelly
Shero said Malkin made it to Pittsburgh but won't skate today. #Penguins
not surprising. good to see Geno back so people can stop freaking out. And I like that he doesn't seem to mention that he will let the lack of forwards work itself out

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01-13-2013, 03:10 PM
  #756
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If Bennett shows he's very close to NHL ready in camp, then that's a game changer in terms of being able to land an established top line winger like Ryan.

Bennett+Despres+TK+ is a hell of a package.

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01-13-2013, 03:12 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. So, which time was Shero a panicky idiot, 2008 or last year? Both times, you had Sid coming back from an injury and the team absolutely flying, looking primed for a cup run. He needed winger help and the defense needed a stable defensive presence. In 2008, he had fewer assets to deal, and he dealt a pair of Kennedy caliber guys, his previous year's first, a first, a second, and a fourth for an elite rental winger, a rental role player, and a defenseman with another year on his deal who was playing like absolute garbage at the time. Last year, with more assets at his disposal, he stood pat.
None of the above - I said a GM doesn't need to make risky trades all the time, I didn't say he shouldn't ever attempt it.

In '08, Shero was still trying to push the team over the hump, and Hossa was an elite winger. It made sense. Last year the available deadline options weren't anywhere as attractive, even though I agree that a guy like Grossman could've been a useful pick-up (though using your argument, it wouldn't have been "risky" because he only went for a couple mid-round picks).

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2. Kind of counterintuitive, if you ask me, to suggest that a GM has to be willing to take risks is the equivalent of wanting a GM to take risks all the time. I'd settle for Shero taking a risk ONCE, which is something he hasn't done of his own volition since the Pens won the cup.
What "risk" did you want him to take? It's all well and good to speculate on wingers we'd like to have, but unless a player is actually moved for a deal we think we could've bettered, it doesn't amount to much.

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3. Gogloski was 3rd on the team in ice time because of some injuries and PP time, no. What was his ES time when EVERYONE was healthy? Orpik played with Letang. Martin played with Michalek, which means Golgoski was #5 on the depth chart (oh, and by the way, that preseason, Despres had killed it in camp). So, Shero dealt the #5 defenseman on his depth chart for a legit, young 30 goal scoring winger and a young #5 defenseman who'd been a first round pick. Yeah, that sure was risky.
Staal was just a #3 center too, right?

However the pairings shook out, Gogs was among the most productive defensemen in the league when he was dealt, and Niskanen was looked at as having negative value coming the other way becaue of his performance relative to his contract. His draft status couldn't be less relevant at that point.

And again, Neal had never scored 30 goals to that point.

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You want to argue against Shero taking a specific risk, then that's fine. But, stripped of all disguise, it's pretty clear that your position is that anything riskier than a Gologoski for Neal and Niskanen type of deal is idiotic.
No, I just don't think risky deals should be made for the hell of it.

If you can make a great acquisition while minimizing risk, all the better.

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01-13-2013, 03:13 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I think Shero stockpiled on D after using alot of our higher picks in deadline deals in years past purely to set himself up well cap wise and to be able to acquire longterm solutions on wing. Iggy isn't necessarily longterm, but he's certainly our answer this year. And as Jiggy said, he definitely has a few years of elite hockey left in him.
I think you're right about why Shero has stockpiled those guys (the Whitney and Gologoski deals serving as models).

I suppose what you're saying about Iggy is what I'm really wondering about Shero. Will he make that deal (those deals) involving significant organizational assets, even though it may not provide answers beyond this year? With more sellers because of the later deadline, the actual names who will be UFA's, and the dropping cap next year, I can't imagine him not making significant-- and yes, risky-- deals if Sid and Geno are healthy at the deadline.

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01-13-2013, 03:13 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
not surprising. good to see Geno back so people can stop freaking out. And I like that he doesn't seem to mention that he will let the lack of forwards work itself out
Another interesting tidbit too from Shero...

Josh Yohe ‏@JoshYohe_Trib
Shero says Malkin may skate tomorrow and that Pens may carry 8 defensemen.



I say what the hell, why not just run 4 defensive pairs and 3 forward lines with one swing man!

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01-13-2013, 03:17 PM
  #760
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LA dealt Jack Johnson for Jeff Carter in the HOPE that Voynov was ready for a significant playoff role. THAT deal was like the Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi deal. You're HOPING something works out as part of the equation (namely, that Letang steps up).

Boston, if memory serves, moved Wideman for Horton in the hope that other young defensemen could fill the void, no?

What was the HOPE in the Gogogoski deal at the time? That Neal could score 30 with Sid or Geno? Nobody doubted that. That Gologoski's contribution couldn't be replaced? Again, on a fully healthy roster, he was the #5 defenseman on the depth chart.

EDIT: And, again, I'll ask the question: How were the Pens different in 2008 versus last season? Sid coming back from injury, needing wingers. The defense needed a stay at home presence. In 2008, Shero went for it. Last year? Anyone? Heck, even look at 2010. Maybe you can argue 'the guys weren't available', but this idea that Shero has taken ONE risk of his own volition since the Pens won the cup is belied by the record.
I don't see Johnson's departure from LA as being any different from Gogs' departure from Pittsburgh. Voynov made JJ expendable in the same way Letang did Gogs.

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01-13-2013, 03:17 PM
  #761
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Seeing Steve MacIntyre claimed by the Maple Leafs. Awaiting confirmation. #WBSPens #AHL

Hallelujah! (if true...)

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01-13-2013, 03:17 PM
  #762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I think you're right about why Shero has stockpiled those guys (the Whitney and Gologoski deals serving as models).

I suppose what you're saying about Iggy is what I'm really wondering about Shero. Will he make that deal (those deals) involving significant organizational assets, even though it may not provide answers beyond this year? With more sellers because of the later deadline, the actual names who will be UFA's, and the dropping cap next year, I can't imagine him not making significant-- and yes, risky-- deals if Sid and Geno are healthy at the deadline.
here's where I think you and I differ. If that deal doesn't happen -- that is, Iginla isn't moved -- I feel like you will use it as an example of Shero not taking a risk and have it as a negative in future discussion about him. I will wonder if he was even available.

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01-13-2013, 03:19 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
None of the above - I said a GM doesn't need to make risky trades all the time, I didn't say he shouldn't ever attempt it.

In '08, Shero was still trying to push the team over the hump, and Hossa was an elite winger. It made sense. Last year the available deadline options weren't anywhere as attractive, even though I agree that a guy like Grossman could've been a useful pick-up (though using your argument, it wouldn't have been "risky" because he only went for a couple mid-round picks).



What "risk" did you want him to take? It's all well and good to speculate on wingers we'd like to have, but unless a player is actually moved for a deal we think we could've bettered, it doesn't amount to much.



Staal was just a #3 center too, right?

However the pairings shook out, Gogs was among the most productive defensemen in the league when he was dealt, and Niskanen was looked at as having negative value coming the other way becaue of his performance relative to his contract. His draft status couldn't be less relevant at that point.

And again, Neal had never scored 30 goals to that point.



No, I just don't think risky deals should be made for the hell of it.

If you can make a great acquisition while minimizing risk, all the better.
When did I argue otherwise?

As for the 'risk' I wanted him to take, it was 'the Martin for Malone, slot in Despres, but then acquire Grossman' risk. IF the Pens hadn't won the cup in 2009, I wonder if he'd have done that.

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01-13-2013, 03:19 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't see Johnson's departure from LA as being any different from Gogs' departure from Pittsburgh. Voynov made JJ expendable in the same way Letang did Gogs.
The JJ trade compares more closely to Whitney for Kunitz trade imo. I don't think we make that trade without Goligoski waiting in the minors the same way they don't make it without Voynov. And lets not pretend that Neal was a more surefire return than Jeff Carter.

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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
When did I argue otherwise?

As for the 'risk' I wanted him to take, it was 'the Martin for Malone, slot in Despres, but then acquire Grossman' risk. IF the Pens hadn't won the cup in 2009, I wonder if he'd have done that.
was Malone available? Maybe we made that offer. Do you have any idea?

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01-13-2013, 03:19 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Well, Rowdy did suggest that anyone like me who would like to see a GM take ONE risk really wants the GM to take risks all the time.

As for you, it sounds then like we're really arguing over whether the Gogo deal was a risk. I'll put it this way: If it was, then it was as risk free an impact move that a GM can make, far less risky than the Hossa deal and less risky than the Whitney deal in that we were hoping to replace a 2/3 defenseman, not a guy who was fifth on the depth chart on a fully healthy defensive roster. Better?
No, I didn't. Shero has taken multiple big risks during his tenure, just none of them big enough for you during your specified 3 year time frame.

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01-13-2013, 03:22 PM
  #766
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't see Johnson's departure from LA as being any different from Gogs' departure from Pittsburgh. Voynov made JJ expendable in the same way Letang did Gogs.
Voynov made JJ expendable in the same way Letang made Whitney expendable, I think you mean.

Side note: Letang actually brought more experience to the table than Voynov, and, at the time of each deal, that deal involved moving a guy who was seen as higher on the depth chart on a healthy roster than Gologoski was when he was moved (or, did you consider Gogo higher on the depth chart than Letang, Orpik, Martin, or Michalek).

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01-13-2013, 03:23 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
When did I argue otherwise?

As for the 'risk' I wanted him to take, it was 'the Martin for Malone, slot in Despres, but then acquire Grossman' risk. IF the Pens hadn't won the cup in 2009, I wonder if he'd have done that.
But Malone wasn't traded. You are bemoaning us not acquiring a winger that went nowhere.

And you can't call Grossman a risk, because he only cost mid-round picks. Sorry. If he is, then so was Leopold, who was acquired for a 2nd rounder in 2010.

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01-13-2013, 03:24 PM
  #768
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
here's where I think you and I differ. If that deal doesn't happen -- that is, Iginla isn't moved -- I feel like you will use it as an example of Shero not taking a risk and have it as a negative in future discussion about him. I will wonder if he was even available.
Actually, if Iginla isn't moved and the Flames are completely out if it, I'll assume it's because he doesn't want to be moved. And, if he's moved elsewhere, it's possible that another team is offering specific prospects that Feaster finds more desirable. That said, if he becomes available, then I think we know what the price tag will be. Only question for me is IF Shero is willing to pay it, not whether Feaster chooses to accept it over a comparable package from another team.

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01-13-2013, 03:25 PM
  #769
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Actually, if Iginla isn't moved and the Flames are completely out if it, I'll assume it's because he doesn't want to be moved. And, if he's moved elsewhere, it's possible that another team is offering specific prospects that Feaster finds more desirable. That said, if he becomes available, then I think we know what the price tag will be. Only question for me is IF Shero is willing to pay it, not whether Feaster chooses to accept it over a comparable package from another team.
ok, fine on this example you might not think that. but your Malone comment above is exactly what I'm talking about.

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01-13-2013, 03:26 PM
  #770
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Voynov made JJ expendable in the same way Letang made Whitney expendable, I think you mean.

Side note: Letang actually brought more experience to the table than Voynov, and, at the time of each deal, that deal involved moving a guy who was seen as higher on the depth chart on a healthy roster than Gologoski was when he was moved (or, did you consider Gogo higher on the depth chart than Letang, Orpik, Martin, or Michalek).
Nah...I meant what I wrote.

The depth chart really means nothing to me. Voynov was outperforming Johnson in LA, and his play made him expendable.

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01-13-2013, 03:27 PM
  #771
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No, I didn't. Shero has taken multiple big risks during his tenure, just none of them big enough for you during your specified 3 year time frame.
No, my complaint is that the big (significant) ones were taken before the Pens won a cup and were instrumental in that happening.

As I said, with the late deadline, the names who will be UFA's, and the 2013-2014 cap, you're going to have more sellers this year. If Shero again buys lite or not at all, whether the purchase is very or slightly risky, there won't be any more excuses.

Personally, I think the forced Staal deal has changed things for him. We'll have a pretty good idea if that's the case by April 4th.

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01-13-2013, 03:29 PM
  #772
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It was rumored at last years deadline, Lombardi was shopping Brown and the Pens were one of the major players. It would be very interesting to see how much of a "risk" Shero was willing to make to get him.

In the end, the smarest think Lombardi did was keep his captain who turned out to be LA's top performers. I imagine Brown would have gotten a decent package

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01-13-2013, 03:30 PM
  #773
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ok, fine on this example you might not think that. but your Malone comment above is exactly what I'm talking about.
Well, was he not moved because Tampa wasn't selling or because Shero wasn't offering Martin. You can only go by rumors, and rumors are never 100% fact.

You know, what's done is done. Personally, I think Shero got complacent in terms of what had been an aggressive approach to managing the team after the Pens won the cup. Maybe it was right in spite of how the three years turned out. As I said, we'll see what Shero does this year. I'm inclined to think the forced Staal deal maybe has changed things for him.

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01-13-2013, 03:31 PM
  #774
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No, my complaint is that the big (significant) ones were taken before the Pens won a cup and were instrumental in that happening.

As I said, with the late deadline, the names who will be UFA's, and the 2013-2014 cap, you're going to have more sellers this year. If Shero again buys lite or not at all, whether the purchase is very or slightly risky, there won't be any more excuses.

Personally, I think the forced Staal deal has changed things for him. We'll have a pretty good idea if that's the case by April 4th.
You said:

"Well, Rowdy did suggest that anyone like me who would like to see a GM take ONE risk really wants the GM to take risks all the time."

Shero has taken ONE risk. More than ONE risk, in fact. He has shown he is not risk-averse. He just hasn't taken big enough risks for you since 2009.

And I'm sure the Staal deal did change things for him, mostly on account of the potential cap space it freed up. We already saw that with the Parise and Suter entreaties.

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01-13-2013, 03:31 PM
  #775
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It was rumored at last years deadline, Lombardi was shopping Brown and the Pens were one of the major players. It would be very interesting to see how much of a "risk" Shero was willing to make to get him.

In the end, the smarest think Lombardi did was keep his captain who turned out to be LA's top performers. I imagine Brown would have gotten a decent package
Rumor was the asking price was Kunitz+.

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