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01-06-2013, 05:35 PM
  #1
Dynheart
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Holland.

Looks like he might turn into an accidental genius this season. Sure, he still spent needlessly on some forwards...but I think there may be a reason for that.

The cap is coming down most likely (what's the figure everyone is guessing at?). Weather he knew this would happen, or he had some luck...(the greats always need some luck involved)...and with a short season that just might play into the Wings' favor? Gotta say...things just may work out for him after all. Heh. Not to mention we have some nice prospects otw that will fill the gaps nicely when the vets (Bert/Cleary) start to leave.

In short...Weather it was a stroke of genius, or luck...or a bit of both. Looks like what he did in the off season might have been the right call after all (a lot of teams are going to be burned with the cap being dropped). I see a lot of free agencies, juicy ones, in the future. Not to mention some waived gems...The NHL may get interesting the next couple of seasons.

What do you guys think?

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01-06-2013, 05:44 PM
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Vladdy84
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I'd be much happier with Suter.

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01-06-2013, 05:46 PM
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People were saying Holland was a genius for having so much money to play with going into last summer too... Let's wait until he actually does something, cap space is only a great asset if you put it to use.

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01-06-2013, 06:14 PM
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Holland tried like hell to spend money... having this cap space wasn't the plan.

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01-06-2013, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricelund View Post
Holland tried like hell to spend money... having this cap space wasn't the plan.
True, but I don't think he was interested in overpaying for Parise and Carle for instance, either. Only Suter.

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01-06-2013, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
People were saying Holland was a genius for having so much money to play with going into last summer too... Let's wait until he actually does something, cap space is only a great asset if you put it to use.
Why are you acting like Holland didn't try like hell to sign his top target(s)?

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01-06-2013, 07:57 PM
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WingedWheel1987
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Originally Posted by dtones520 View Post
Why are you acting like Holland didn't try like hell to sign his top target(s)?
That Parise offer was a complete joke. 68 million? lol........ He didnt even outbid Minnesota on Suter either, even with Minny offering two 98 million dollar contracts. He failed miserably.

Holland lucked out because he is a cheapskate and expects people to want to play in Detroit and take a massive discount. That may work with 3rd or 4th line grinders, but Marian Hossa and Brian Rafalski arent going to happen again.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 01-06-2013 at 08:02 PM.
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01-06-2013, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
People were saying Holland was a genius for having so much money to play with going into last summer too... Let's wait until he actually does something, cap space is only a great asset if you put it to use.
Exactly. They will be a middle of the road parity team for the foreseeable future. Illitch really can't influence the quality anymore. I see attendance dropping and payroll will follow. It was a good run.

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01-06-2013, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dtones520 View Post
Why are you acting like Holland didn't try like hell to sign his top target(s)?
Head coaches try like hell to win games, and if they don't, they don't have a job. Trying is great and all, but when you have resources and come up empty you should be accountable.

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01-06-2013, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dtones520 View Post
Why are you acting like Holland didn't try like hell to sign his top target(s)?
Also I don't see anywhere where I said he didn't try. I said he didn't do anything. Two different things.

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01-06-2013, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
That Parise offer was a complete joke. 68 million? lol........ He didnt even outbid Minnesota on Suter either, even with Minny offering two 98 million dollar contracts. He failed miserably.

Holland lucked out because he is a cheapskate and expects people to want to play in Detroit and take a massive discount. That may work with 3rd or 4th line grinders, but Marian Hossa and Brian Rafalski arent going to happen again.
Those contract offers to Parise and Suter weren't cheap offers at all.

Would you really want two 13 year $98 million contracts when we already have Zetterberg and Franzen signed long-term? I'd love to have Suter, even with that contract, but Suter AND Parise? No thanks, Parise isn't worth handicapping our future that badly.

Holland can't just go around throwing lifetime $100 million dollar contracts to every free agent. He's smart enough to think about the future. Holland failed this offseason but he wasn't cheap, Minnesota is just plain crazy IMO.

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01-06-2013, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Head coaches try like hell to win games, and if they don't, they don't have a job. Trying is great and all, but when you have resources and come up empty you should be accountable.
Lets wait and see how this team performs before we start comparing this to a coach who doesn't win games. Detroit had the resources, they offered those resources to the point where they were comfortable and missed out. It happens. Holland has kept this team competitive for a cup his entire tenure here, he has rarely missed out on his top free agency targets, he has never had a draft pick higher than 19th overall and he has done this all while keeping solid NHL ready prospects in the fold for a season like this where we did miss out on our number one free agent target.

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01-06-2013, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtones520 View Post
and he has done this all while keeping solid NHL ready prospects in the fold for a season like this where we did miss out on our number one free agent target.
If the backup plan was to play the kids, why sign plugs like Samuelsson and Bertuzzi?

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01-07-2013, 12:55 AM
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If the backup plan was to play the kids, why sign plugs like Samuelsson and Bertuzzi?
Exactly.
At this point, with the amount of young forwards we have, you gotta work them in... unless you get elite talent.

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01-07-2013, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Sadekuuro View Post
If the backup plan was to play the kids, why sign plugs like Samuelsson and Bertuzzi?
Imo, he planned Bertuzzi to keep the biggest body in offence that we aren't so damn weak in the corners and to jump in a reduced "Holmström" role. We don't have any kid with as big and strong frame to add in this team. Sheahan could be ready when Tuzzi's contract ends. Looks more like perfect planning.

Samuelsson was added as a player that fits better for Babcock's needs. Babcock wanted depth, Sammy is it. He is a tool, you can use Sammy many ways when the injuries hit like they always hit. And he is a proven winner, with many goals at Stanley Cup finals. Let's say that I rather have Sammy than Emmerton in the roster.

And I woudn't count it out that we'll do a trade for a defenceman that is "paid" by giving multiple forwards. Judging Holland too early has showed many times, how he did know things that some critiziers didn't have any clue. Eaves still has problems, there's another season. Also expansion draft could be coming at next summer, where we need bodies, that losing one doesn't matter at all.

Using the kids is adding Nyquist and Smith on the roster at this season, and Tatar at next. What's the problem in here?


Last edited by Henkka: 01-07-2013 at 02:08 AM.
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01-07-2013, 02:40 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
Those contract offers to Parise and Suter weren't cheap offers at all.

Would you really want two 13 year $98 million contracts when we already have Zetterberg and Franzen signed long-term? I'd love to have Suter, even with that contract, but Suter AND Parise? No thanks, Parise isn't worth handicapping our future that badly.

Holland can't just go around throwing lifetime $100 million dollar contracts to every free agent. He's smart enough to think about the future. Holland failed this offseason but he wasn't cheap, Minnesota is just plain crazy IMO.
73 mil for 13 years, avg cap hit of what, 5.6 mil? Imo that's kind of cheap offer for Parise.. considering the money thrown at him.

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01-07-2013, 09:32 AM
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The $64 Million dollar cap isn't going to cripple anyone. Most teams, with the notable exceptions of San Jose and Chicago, will be able to fit comfortably under the cap once they use ONE of their buyouts coupled with departures of free agents. Teams like Vancouver who have studs like Edler will more than likely be able to resign them to market value and still have space to burn. This wasn't accidental genius, this was just Holland getting shut out without a chance at every move he wanted to make coupled with signing some scrubs that shouldn't have been signed in the first place.

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01-07-2013, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
Those contract offers to Parise and Suter weren't cheap offers at all.

Would you really want two 13 year $98 million contracts when we already have Zetterberg and Franzen signed long-term? I'd love to have Suter, even with that contract, but Suter AND Parise? No thanks, Parise isn't worth handicapping our future that badly.

Holland can't just go around throwing lifetime $100 million dollar contracts to every free agent. He's smart enough to think about the future. Holland failed this offseason but he wasn't cheap, Minnesota is just plain crazy IMO.
Totally agree. Sure he made bids for Suter and Parise, but stayed within the confines of what was reasonable and lost out to a team that's going to have some issues going forward (and, by most accounts, was one of the main proponents of the lockout).

Better to have the money and not spend it than need the money and not have it.


Last edited by RedMenace: 01-07-2013 at 10:14 AM.
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01-07-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
That Parise offer was a complete joke. 68 million? lol........ He didnt even outbid Minnesota on Suter either, even with Minny offering two 98 million dollar contracts. He failed miserably.

Holland lucked out because he is a cheapskate and expects people to want to play in Detroit and take a massive discount. That may work with 3rd or 4th line grinders, but Marian Hossa and Brian Rafalski arent going to happen again.
The Parise offer was what he was worth. Minnesota is going to regret that contract in the next couple years. I don't blame him for not wanting to MASSIVELY overpay Parise.

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01-07-2013, 10:19 AM
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To get back to the premise of the OP.

Where do you think we are when we sign Filppula and Howard?

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01-07-2013, 10:20 AM
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To get back to the premise of the OP.

Where do you think we are when we sign Filppula and Howard?
Fil will probably be let go due to the crap ton of forwards we have now plus the salary cap drop next year. Howard will definitely be resigned.

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01-07-2013, 10:21 AM
  #22
WingedWheel1987
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Originally Posted by BeersHockey View Post
The Parise offer was what he was worth. Minnesota is going to regret that contract in the next couple years. I don't blame him for not wanting to MASSIVELY overpay Parise.
And the Wings won't regret it? Who will Ken Holland lowball next offseason so he can keep his cap space to low ball another elite FA?

Paying market value isn't overpaying. There will always be a GM who is going to outbid Holland, because that is today's NHL.

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01-07-2013, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
And the Wings won't regret it? Who will Ken Holland lowball next offseason so he can keep his cap space to low ball another elite FA?

Paying market value isn't overpaying. There will always be a GM who is going to outbid Holland, because that is today's NHL.
I guess time will tell, but do you think the teams that missed out on signing Gomez, Holik, Yashin, etc. are kicking themselves in the balls for "low-balling" an elite player? There are plenty more contracts out there that teams regret, other than the albatrosses named above, but you get the picture.

Also, the idea of "paying market value" is absurd. Free agency is an auction, not a market. 3rd/4th line wingers exist in a market, top line talent does not.

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01-07-2013, 10:47 AM
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Fil will probably be let go due to the crap ton of forwards we have now plus the salary cap drop next year. Howard will definitely be resigned.
Let go of Filppula? Can't see that happening, to be honest. Because of the cap drop for next season, I can see $4m max for him, but not more.

As far as the glut of forwards goes, with the amnesty buyouts kicking in for next season, Samuelsson and Bertuzzi seem to be the most likely candidates (35+ contracts, 2 years left) -- though if Eaves doesn't get any better (and doesn't choose to retire) he might be a possibility. That would give room for Tatar and Nyquist to come up and still have room to sign a FA if needed.

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01-07-2013, 10:50 AM
  #25
WingedWheel1987
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I guess time will tell, but do you think the teams that missed out on signing Gomez, Holik, Yashin, etc. are kicking themselves in the balls for "low-balling" an elite player? There are plenty more contracts out there that teams regret, other than the albatrosses named above, but you get the picture.

Also, the idea of "paying market value" is absurd. Free agency is an auction, not a market. 3rd/4th line wingers exist in a market, top line talent does not.
Its not absurd. Ken Holland is stuck in the past. The market dictated that Parise is worth 98 million. Ken Holland thought he was worth 68 million. You might as well not even call Parise's agent with that kind of offer. Holland knew the offer was a joke, but he had to pretend he was doing his job. The initial offer for Suter was just as ridiculous. 70 million, are your serious? He was trying to massage the cap, and he got burned big time.

You gotta pay to play.

Ken Holland lucked out due to sheer incompetence.

Alexander Edler is going to get paid a truck ton of money as well if he hits FA. Holland will obviously try to pursue him, and another NHL GM will pay the absolute max. Is that cap space if the Wings don't get him going to block a shot?

Unused cap space is worthless if you never take advantage of it.

Ken holland has become far too conservative.

This will be my last holland criticism until he screws up again. I imagine reading the same post in a different format every week must be very boring to read.


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