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Old
01-15-2013, 12:34 PM
  #1
IV XIV XCI
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Hawkeye

Could anyone fill me in on the science behind the Hawkeye technology that is used in tennis to determine if shots are in or out. They seem to have precision to the millimetre.

I'm wondering how/why this technology isnt used for hockey when pucks are difficult to spot for the naked eye (when it's not clear whether they have cross the goal line completely).

I know tennis does it without manipulating the ball at all.
I suppose the problem is that cameras cant get an accurate view of the puck at all times with bodies in the way.

I feel like there should be technology available to fix goal-line disputes that are better than just the fuzzy camera zoom ins we currently get in the NHL.

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01-15-2013, 12:40 PM
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Petro Points
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IV XIV XCI View Post
Could anyone fill me in on the science behind the Hawkeye technology that is used in tennis to determine if shots are in or out. They seem to have precision to the millimetre.

I'm wondering how/why this technology isnt used for hockey when pucks are difficult to spot for the naked eye (when it's not clear whether they have cross the goal line completely).

I know tennis does it without manipulating the ball at all.
I suppose the problem is that cameras cant get an accurate view of the puck at all times with bodies in the way.

I feel like there should be technology available to fix goal-line disputes that are better than just the fuzzy camera zoom ins we currently get in the NHL.
Dont think it would be the correct technology.. Hawkeye uses the spin\speed and trajectory of the ball and creates the path.. With a goalie manipulating this path it just wont work.. Hawkeye is used in Cricket as well.

For hockey we just need infrared\xray to find the puck through gloves\bodies.

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01-15-2013, 12:46 PM
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Moose Coleman
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Originally Posted by IV XIV XCI View Post
I feel like there should be technology available to fix goal-line disputes that are better than just the fuzzy camera zoom ins we currently get in the NHL.
Put a sensor in the puck and a sensor under the goal line. Done.

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01-15-2013, 01:00 PM
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IV XIV XCI
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Put a sensor in the puck and a sensor under the goal line. Done.
i've always agreed with this idea but i dont think it would ever fly because the league/players dont want any manipulation with the puck whatsoever.

except maybe for a few awkward months in 1994 with that whole lazer puck fiasco

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01-15-2013, 01:09 PM
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Moose Coleman
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Originally Posted by IV XIV XCI View Post
i've always agreed with this idea but i dont think it would ever fly because the league/players dont want any manipulation with the puck whatsoever.

except maybe for a few awkward months in 1994 with that whole lazer puck fiasco
I've never heard that and can't see why they'd object. They're called "microchips" for a reason.

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01-15-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Put a sensor in the puck and a sensor under the goal line. Done.
Put cameras in the net. Put like 9 or 10 in each net. Technology is dirt cheap now. Put 3 on each post and the crossbar. Would almost guarantee at least some view of the puck, and no stupid angle. And also put one or two on the crossbar looking straight out to determine high sticks.

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01-15-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Put a sensor in the puck and a sensor under the goal line. Done.
this is theory vs reality

a 100 miles hour slap shot will ajar the stucture of the puck and could lead to a flawed result

A few years ago MIT was playing with pucks and a few other things when it came to hockey and other sports and the commen result was the additions made to the pucks and ball caused the results to be scewed

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01-15-2013, 01:17 PM
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Moose Coleman
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
this is theory vs reality

a 100 miles hour slap shot will ajar the stucture of the puck and could lead to a flawed result
I doubt that very much.

Quote:
A few years ago MIT was playing with pucks and a few other things when it came to hockey and other sports and the commen result was the additions made to the pucks and ball caused the results to be scewed
Link?

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01-15-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
I doubt that very much.



Link?
I would enjoy a link for that as well. Not because I think you are wrong or anything but it is just an intriguing subject that would be cool to read about.

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01-15-2013, 01:27 PM
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What "chips" and "technology"? RFID tags, which are small and do not require a power source, aren't precise. If you, for example, put an RFID tag into the puck and then put readers under the ice in the net, you wouldn't know anything precisely, you'd just know that the puck (RFID tag) got near the reader. You can't triangulate or anything like that because the range of any given reader changes with the environment. There's not a technology that I know of that wouldn't require a power source inside the puck, that would tell you to the milometer where precisely a puck was, and whether it had crossed an arbitrary line, without using some form of light to monitor. There are too many variables in the range of the RF reader involved.

Not to mention, you can't just "put one of those small chips inside the puck", pucks flex when they are shot, travel through the air, and especially when they hit the boards. You'd have to protect any "chip" from the environment of the puck, which is why the puck would end up greatly modified in it's weight and flex (which constitutes it's bounce).

I think some of you are watching too many of those "CSI" shows and misunderstand the real world limits of technology.

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01-15-2013, 01:30 PM
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awesomo
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Putting anything in a puck will change its physics.

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01-15-2013, 01:39 PM
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Moose Coleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratedge View Post


What "chips" and "technology"? RFID tags, which are small and do not require a power source, aren't precise. If you, for example, put an RFID tag into the puck and then put readers under the ice in the net, you wouldn't know anything precisely, you'd just know that the puck (RFID tag) got near the reader. You can't triangulate or anything like that because the range of any given reader changes with the environment. There's not a technology that I know of that wouldn't require a power source inside the puck, that would tell you to the milometer where precisely a puck was, and whether it had crossed an arbitrary line, without using some form of light to monitor. There are too many variables in the range of the RF reader involved.

Not to mention, you can't just "put one of those small chips inside the puck", pucks flex when they are shot, travel through the air, and especially when they hit the boards. You'd have to protect any "chip" from the environment of the puck, which is why the puck would end up greatly modified in it's weight and flex (which constitutes it's bounce).

I think some of you are watching too many of those "CSI" shows and misunderstand the real world limits of technology.
Strange, then, that microchip technology is in use in other sports, including international soccer. You should let them know its impossible.

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01-15-2013, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Strange, then, that microchip technology is in use in other sports, including international soccer. You should let them know its impossible.
Yeah the major difference is that FIFA doesn't give a damn about changing the behaviour of the ball. They do it all the time. They seem to think it's fun.

Further, the margin of error in soccer is pretty big. They have pretty low standards and it wouldn't take much to improve on their current system of an idiot standing 30 yards away trying to guess what just happened. See: England vs Germany in 2010:


Conclusion: soccer isn't hockey. The video above is what they're trying to prevent.

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01-15-2013, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by stratedge View Post
Yeah the major difference is that FIFA doesn't give a damn about changing the behaviour of the ball. They do it all the time. They seem to think it's fun.
So how much did the FoxTrax change the behaviour of the puck? Of all the knocks against it, performance was never one (except insofar as you couldn't freeze the puck). A puck is a solid piece of rubber. Unless you are putting fins on it or significantly increasing its weight, you aren't going to see a big change in how it behaves.

Quote:
Further, the margin of error in soccer is pretty big. They have pretty low standards and it wouldn't take much to improve on their current system of an idiot standing 30 yards away trying to guess what just happened. See: England vs Germany in 2010:

Conclusion: soccer isn't hockey. The video above is what they're trying to prevent.
Completely beside the point.

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01-15-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
So how much did the FoxTrax change the behaviour of the puck? Of all the knocks against it, performance was never one (except insofar as you couldn't freeze the puck). A puck is a solid piece of rubber. Unless you are putting fins on it or significantly increasing its weight, you aren't going to see a big change in how it behaves.
Totally incorrect. Anyone who knows anything about physics or engineering can back me up here.

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Completely beside the point.
Uh, no, that's totally THE point. The fact that some crude product exists for use in soccer (and I've never seen it used anywhere, and I watch a lot of soccer) doesn't mean anything. It's a totally apples to oranges comparison, as is the Hawkeye comparison. There isn't a good solution available for hockey regardless of what's out there in other sports.

The fact of the matter is that simple, straight forward cameras still remain the best option in hockey.

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01-15-2013, 02:23 PM
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The fact of the matter is that simple, straight forward cameras still remain the best option in hockey.
Completely agree. We could use one or two more camera angles from above and to the side, though.

Did anyone else other than me actually LIKE the FoxTrax? Trying to follow the puck on a fuzzy SD signal could be one hell of a chore back then. Especially with the cameramen on American feeds always lagging behind the play.

I remember one all-star game with red jerseys vs. blue jerseys, and I shut the game off because I couldn't tell one team from the other. Knew technology would eventually solve the problem, but gawd that was terrible.

I guess my point is, we've come a long way already.

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01-15-2013, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Put cameras in the net. Put like 9 or 10 in each net. Technology is dirt cheap now. Put 3 on each post and the crossbar. Would almost guarantee at least some view of the puck, and no stupid angle. And also put one or two on the crossbar looking straight out to determine high sticks.
This.

Cheap solution, easy to implement.

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01-15-2013, 06:35 PM
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IV XIV XCI
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Is there anyway to put a camera beneath the ice?

How thick is standard NHL rink ice? If you have maybe 3 cameras below the red line facing upwards, Im sure you could get complete range of the goal line and see if a puck has fully crossed it.

Does the frozen condition make this too challenging for the electronics?

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01-15-2013, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by IV XIV XCI View Post
Is there anyway to put a camera beneath the ice?

How thick is standard NHL rink ice? If you have maybe 3 cameras below the red line facing upwards, Im sure you could get complete range of the goal line and see if a puck has fully crossed it.

Does the frozen condition make this too challenging for the electronics?
No, because in that space you need the equipment that freezes the ice, and the ice isn't actually that thick. You can't just go in with a jack hammer and dig out a space for any sort of equipment, camera or otherwise, without impacting the quality of the ice in that space. Along the lines of other ideas, you might be able to get a wire or something in there, but much beyond that and you're creating more problems than you're solving.

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01-15-2013, 08:40 PM
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I had no idea what this thread was about. I assumed a new nickname suggestion for one of the players... or an off topic discussion about that MASH guy dying or something. In other words carry on... I have nothing to add.

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