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Canucks Training Camp: Day 2 Over

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01-11-2013, 06:15 PM
  #551
HellasLEAF
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guys is Zack Kassian actually getting a legit shot on the top line here or is this just a look at camp and nothing more...

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01-11-2013, 06:19 PM
  #552
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guys is Zack Kassian actually getting a legit shot on the top line here or is this just a look at camp and nothing more...
I wouldn't take him in your pool, no.

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01-11-2013, 06:21 PM
  #553
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I wouldn't take him in your pool, no.
He'd be great for penalty minutes.

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01-11-2013, 06:25 PM
  #554
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guys is Zack Kassian actually getting a legit shot on the top line here or is this just a look at camp and nothing more...
Kassian has as much of a chance as being on our top line as a trade for Luongo with Bozak being a piece coming back is

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01-11-2013, 06:40 PM
  #555
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Kassian has as much of a chance as being on our top line as a trade for Luongo with Bozak being a piece coming back is
So a good chance?

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01-11-2013, 07:20 PM
  #556
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Man, after going through this thread, I'm rooting for Raymond so hard this year. Full summer/fall of training after, what to me, was an incredible comeback after a near career ending injury. He can be moved up and down the lineup with relative comfort and has some of the best wheels in the game. Hopefully he proves to all the haters ( there are apparently a ton of them ) that he is still a solid contributor.
Mason Raymond is anything but the total package as a hockey player, but he's become horribly underrated by this fan base. His speed is still incredible and he can still back defenders up like few other players on the team. He can create opportunities for himself. Does he mesh brilliantly with his line mates? Not really. Is he capable of handling the puck beautifully at high speed? Not really. But he's a deft and tricky stickhandler, and he has a hard shot, and he's nifty in shootouts. With normal ice time and power play duty, he'd be a 50 point forward on a lot of teams. That's a valuable asset. Guys like that get 4 million + in free agency these days. Ville Leino money.

Raymond also hustles hard on the back check, is defensively competent, and is a fairly stellar penalty killer. Yes, he falls down a lot. Yes, he's slightly built and can get man handled in the corners. Yes, he still inexplicably looks like a 14 year old boy. He's a decent player who has been absolutely ravaged by injury the last couple of years. It'd be nice if the fans could cut him a little slack and not get the knives out before training camp has even officially opened.

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01-11-2013, 07:41 PM
  #557
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^ Raymond has really poor hockey sense

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01-11-2013, 07:42 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by BloatedGuppy View Post
Mason Raymond is anything but the total package as a hockey player, but he's become horribly underrated by this fan base. His speed is still incredible and he can still back defenders up like few other players on the team. He can create opportunities for himself. Does he mesh brilliantly with his line mates? Not really. Is he capable of handling the puck beautifully at high speed? Not really. But he's a deft and tricky stickhandler, and he has a hard shot, and he's nifty in shootouts. With normal ice time and power play duty, he'd be a 50 point forward on a lot of teams. That's a valuable asset. Guys like that get 4 million + in free agency these days. Ville Leino money.


Raymond also hustles hard on the back check, is defensively competent, and is a fairly stellar penalty killer. Yes, he falls down a lot. Yes, he's slightly built and can get man handled in the corners. Yes, he still inexplicably looks like a 14 year old boy. He's a decent player who has been absolutely ravaged by injury the last couple of years. It'd be nice if the fans could cut him a little slack and not get the knives out before training camp has even officially opened.
I couldn't agree more

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01-11-2013, 07:55 PM
  #559
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So in addition to Hamhuis, Bieksa, Edler (injured?), Garrison, Ballard, Tanev, Alberts, Joslin, Mullen, Connauton, Sauve, and Corrado, we have brought Cam Barker into the fold as well? Oh my....that's a deep pool of defenders ladies and gentlemen. Deep.

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01-11-2013, 07:57 PM
  #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloatedGuppy View Post
Mason Raymond is anything but the total package as a hockey player, but he's become horribly underrated by this fan base. His speed is still incredible and he can still back defenders up like few other players on the team. He can create opportunities for himself. Does he mesh brilliantly with his line mates? Not really. Is he capable of handling the puck beautifully at high speed? Not really. But he's a deft and tricky stickhandler, and he has a hard shot, and he's nifty in shootouts. With normal ice time and power play duty, he'd be a 50 point forward on a lot of teams. That's a valuable asset. Guys like that get 4 million + in free agency these days. Ville Leino money.

Raymond also hustles hard on the back check, is defensively competent, and is a fairly stellar penalty killer. Yes, he falls down a lot. Yes, he's slightly built and can get man handled in the corners. Yes, he still inexplicably looks like a 14 year old boy. He's a decent player who has been absolutely ravaged by injury the last couple of years. It'd be nice if the fans could cut him a little slack and not get the knives out before training camp has even officially opened.
If Raymond puts up 20/20 everyone is okay with him as a 2nd liner.

When he's a 15/15 player he's utterly useless.

Yes that's a slight difference, but for 2nd line production that's a massive difference.

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01-11-2013, 07:58 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
So in addition to Hamhuis, Bieksa, Edler (injured?), Garrison, Ballard, Tanev, Alberts, Joslin, Mullen, Connauton, Sauve, and Corrado, we have brought Cam Barker into the fold as well? Oh my....that's a deep pool of defenders ladies and gentlemen. Deep.
Barker definitely represents the shallow end of the pool.

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01-11-2013, 08:02 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by BloatedGuppy View Post
Mason Raymond is anything but the total package as a hockey player, but he's become horribly underrated by this fan base. His speed is still incredible and he can still back defenders up like few other players on the team. He can create opportunities for himself. Does he mesh brilliantly with his line mates? Not really. Is he capable of handling the puck beautifully at high speed? Not really. But he's a deft and tricky stickhandler, and he has a hard shot, and he's nifty in shootouts. With normal ice time and power play duty, he'd be a 50 point forward on a lot of teams. That's a valuable asset. Guys like that get 4 million + in free agency these days. Ville Leino money.
lol when was the last time you saw this happen on a consistent basis, all he does now is gain the blueline, do a button hook, and then subsequently get pushed off the puck

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01-11-2013, 08:24 PM
  #563
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lol when was the last time you saw this happen on a consistent basis, all he does now is gain the blueline, do a button hook, and then subsequently get pushed off the puck
Last time I saw him backing defenders up and creating chances? In the Stanley Cup Finals.

You know...before he broke his back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
If Raymond puts up 20/20 everyone is okay with him as a 2nd liner.

When he's a 15/15 player he's utterly useless.

Yes that's a slight difference, but for 2nd line production that's a massive difference.
Raymond had 39 points in 70 games as a 2nd-4th line roamer the season before last...a season that was also marred by a panoply of injuries...and everyone wanted to trade Raymond for a dog and then shoot the dog. When he came back from his back injury last year, all braced up and hesitant to take contact in the corners, everyone was understanding for about a week, and then they wanted to trade Raymond for a gun and then shoot Raymond.

I'm not super happy with Raymond's play lately either, and it remains to be seen whether he EVER recovers from that injury. On a team with the wing depth of Vancouver, he's something of an odd fit. He's not really a great solution on the 2nd line, and he's a bit too slightly built for how Vigneault likes his 3rd and 4th lines. So he tends to bounce all over the place. But he's made the best of it. He's learned to play yeoman defense, he doesn't complain about his ice time or his power play time, and he seems perpetually contrite about his poor performances despite the fact they've generally been attributable to injuries and low confidence.

I don't want to make the guy our starting forward, but I think we can call off the dogs for a while.


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01-11-2013, 08:30 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by HellasLEAF View Post
guys is Zack Kassian actually getting a legit shot on the top line here or is this just a look at camp and nothing more...
I think it's just a option they are looking into with Kesler gone from the 2nd line. If they decide to go with neither Ebbett or Schroeder for 2C (too small?), they might move Raymond to 2C and maybe move Burrows down to the 2nd line. In that case, the line-up would look something like this;

Sedin Sedin Kassian
Booth Raymond Burrows
Higgins Lapierre Hansen
4th line LW? Malhotra Weise
13th forward?

The thinking might be that the Sedins can get Kassian going better than the 2nd line and do wonders for his hoped-for development into a power forward. Burrows will help get the struggling 2nd line going.


Last edited by Hammer79: 01-11-2013 at 08:37 PM.
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01-11-2013, 08:35 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
So in addition to Hamhuis, Bieksa, Edler (injured?), Garrison, Ballard, Tanev, Alberts, Joslin, Mullen, Connauton, Sauve, and Corrado, we have brought Cam Barker into the fold as well? Oh my....that's a deep pool of defenders ladies and gentlemen. Deep.
Lots of bodies doesn't = depth.

Barker, Joslin, Mullen, Sauve, and Connauton utterly suck, and none of them should be playing an NHL game except in a dire emergency. Alberts is kinda crap but can get by if he's sheltered.

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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
If Raymond puts up 20/20 everyone is okay with him as a 2nd liner.

When he's a 15/15 player he's utterly useless.

Yes that's a slight difference, but for 2nd line production that's a massive difference.
Except he was playing very little on the 2nd line last year with no PP time.

If Raymond puts up 15-15-30 in that situation that's outstanding production. And that's essentially what he did last year mostly from the 3rd line while coming back from a career-threatening injury.

The criticism Raymond takes is so unfair and ridiculous it's almost difficult to wrap your head around.

In hindsight, the worst thing ever to happen to him was the prominent role he played in 2009-10 - 2nd line alongside a peak form Kesler, and the primary shooting option on the #2 PP unit. Now people expect him to repeat that production from a 3rd line, with inferior linemates and no PP time, and brand him as utter crap when he (obviously) can't do it.

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01-11-2013, 08:35 PM
  #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloatedGuppy View Post
Last time I saw him backing defenders up and creating chances? In the Stanley Cup Finals.

You know...before he broke his back.



Raymond had 39 points in 70 games as a 2nd-4th line roamer the season before last...a season that was also marred by a panoply of injuries...and everyone wanted to trade Raymond for a dog and then shoot the dog. When he came back from his back injury last year, all braced up and hesitant to take contact in the corners, everyone was understanding for about a week, and then they wanted to trade Raymond for a gun and then shoot Raymond.

I'm not super happy with Raymond's play lately either, and it remains to be seen whether he EVER recovers from that injury. On a team with the wing depth of Vancouver, he's something of an odd fit. He's not really a great solution on the 2nd line, and he's a bit too slightly built for how Vigneault likes his 3rd and 4th lines. So he tends to bounce all over the place. But he's made the best of it. He's learned to play yeoman defense, he doesn't complain about his ice time or his power play time, and he seems perpetually contrite about his poor performances despite the fact they've generally been attributable to injuries and low confidence.

I don't want to make the guy our starting forward, but I think we can call off the dogs for a while.
The problem is that if Raymond is not on the 2nd line he's almost completely redundant. The 3rd line doesn't need him at all and he really isn't a 4th liner.

He's a 2nd line winger or bust and ya sure he's had injuries... but if he's not putting up points he's not doing his job.

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01-11-2013, 08:44 PM
  #567
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Ahhhhh. The season is upon us.

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01-11-2013, 09:08 PM
  #568
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The criticism Raymond takes is so unfair and ridiculous it's almost difficult to wrap your head around.
Not really. He's been utter garbage when needed most. The guy has like 1 goal in his last 30 playoff games. That's beyond putrid for a player that has been given the opportunites he has on an elite offensive club.

The NHL has gone back to a clutch and grab league and Raymond just isn't suited to that style game. If he can't learn to play in traffic, his days in Vancouver will and should be short lived.

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01-11-2013, 09:19 PM
  #569
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he really isn't a 4th liner.
I don't agree with this statement. I think having someone like Raymond on the 4th line is a good thing, given it makes them far more likely to actually score. Who else are we going to put on there that even comes close to the offensive ability Raymond has? And it's not like he is useless on the other side of the puck either.

We have the space for him this season, we may as well use him.

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01-11-2013, 09:23 PM
  #570
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I don't agree with this statement. I think having someone like Raymond on the 4th line is a good thing, given it makes them far more likely to actually score. Who else are we going to put on there that even comes close to the offensive ability Raymond has? And it's not like he is useless on the other side of the puck either.

We have the space for him this season, we may as well use him.
Yeah, if we have the cap space, Raymond on the 4th line is valuable to us. Raymond, Lapierre and Kassian would give us the best 4th line in as long as I can remember.

It't time to start treating the 4th line like it matters. No more of this Bolduc, Desbiens garbage...

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01-11-2013, 09:39 PM
  #571
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I was hoping we could have gotten that veteran presence during the off-season, but long lock outs don't bode well for aging players. Ray Whitney would have been a tremendous addition to this team if we could have got him

A really good 4th liner who provides leadership and when he gets his shift he just gives it 100 percent, I like Kassian a lot but I don't know what the 4th line will do for him, the biggest knock on him from watching the game and listening to the members of this board is he isn't a consitant energy guy.

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01-11-2013, 09:44 PM
  #572
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anymore invites?

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01-11-2013, 09:46 PM
  #573
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I don't agree with this statement. I think having someone like Raymond on the 4th line is a good thing, given it makes them far more likely to actually score. Who else are we going to put on there that even comes close to the offensive ability Raymond has? And it's not like he is useless on the other side of the puck either.

We have the space for him this season, we may as well use him.
In the regular season maybe... in the postseason I disagree.

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01-11-2013, 09:49 PM
  #574
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Calling it now. Cam barker is playing opening night against the ducks.
He is exactly the player who av can mould.

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01-11-2013, 09:54 PM
  #575
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Calling it now. Cam barker is playing opening night against the ducks.
He is exactly the player who av can mould.
So what exactly is he?

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