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01-16-2013, 05:23 AM
  #676
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
2 things this team isn't lacking in the slightest. Again I am sick of hearing about PMD or slick skating players, guess what every team needs a few grinders, muckers and battlers. Bowman thinks this to be untrue, look at his moves, not a single D minded Dman with size, not 1 power forward who uses his body and he got rid of Ladd, Buff, Brouwer and Kopecky, guys who for better or worse filled those roles.

It's one of the main reasons our PP and PK are terrible, on one end we have 5 guys passing the puck around the outside of the zone and taking shots without anyone infront of the goalie. On the PK opposing forwards can camp out in front of the net because we lack any size and toughness in the back, other then Seabs.
Oduya blocks alot of shots too.. and that's the only thing Sopel brought to the team. Combine Oduya's shot blocking with his skating and puck-moving and it's easy to see why he's such a better hockey player. You want a player simular to Sopel only significantly better? Bowman brought in Roszival.

And, Bowman didn't "get rid of" Ladd or Buff, c'mon now. I always liked Brouwer, but I'd say that 95% of the board was happy to get a first for him and the player selected with that first is a warrior, a talented one, who can impact the game physically along wth his skill and two-way play. Kopecky.. boy was I glad to see him go. As a 4th liner I didn't mind him, but in the role he was given by Q in 2010-11, as a top-6 option, I couldn't stand him. Would you have been willing to pay Kopecky 3M+? Which is what he got from Florida and what he was going to get on the open market.. I wouldn't have.

The reason why our PK sucks is because the Hawks Dmen are instructed to leave the fowards infront of our goalie alone. The D wasn't any smaller or bigger last year than it was in 2009-10, they were just instructed differently on how to defend on the PK. You had Keith, Seabrook, Hammer and Sopel as the PK pairings that year vs. Keith, Seabrook, Hammer and Oduya/Leddy/O'Donnell/Olsen in 2012. I'm not seeing a large difference in beef or grittiness between the two years, but I've noticed a huge difference in how they play on the PK.

As for the PP, yes I do admitt the Hawks miss a guy like Kopecky screening the goalie.. but they have big guys who should be put there that Q and co. refuse to use. I mean, when Bickell was getting scratched every other night last year, Q could have said to him: "Bickell, if you want to play in the NHL, get your ass infront of goaltender on the PP and don't move".. yet, Bickell has never been used in that role and the one time when he was, in the Phoenix series, he scored a goal by knocking home a rebound after screening Smith. What happened the next time around? A Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Keith unit..

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01-16-2013, 05:25 AM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Cullksinikers View Post
See, Bowman talks to general managers about players and pursues good free agents. However, he couldn't land Bernier, Roy, Grabovski, or Parise. We'll see what he can do. At least he recognizes the problem and who to go after. He just needs to stop hesitating, take the plunge once, and pony up.
Let's break this down

Kings have Quick longtime and Bernier still under contract and he will be a RFA. He can't leave. Quick was out until december. as LA would you trade Bernier knowing Quick can't play if the season starts that early? NO, Bowman had no leverage. Not Bowmans fault

Roy: Not sure about that, but I would not have wanted to see Bolland go for Roy. Ott = Bolland

Grabo: Bowman offered a 1st + prospect. Doesn't matter who the prospect is, Grabo isn't worth more. If anything, say FU to NSH and overpaying for Gaustad. That highered the price for Grabo. Not Bowmans fault Burke wanted more and more

Parise: We were finalists in his decision offering the same contract as the Wild. He goes to his hometown WITH his friend Suter. You really blame Bowman for this? REALLY?


Out of what you showed as examples, Bowman isn't at fault. Want to add Brodeur too who got a big last contract from the only team he has ever played with. GREAT Idea.

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Originally Posted by Cullksinikers View Post
I don't see how Bernier for McNeill and a first-round pick is terrible. You have Toews, Bolland, Teuvo, Hayes, Kruger, and Shaw all as center options for the future. Assuming Bernier can step in and do more than Emery, the first-round pick will hopefully be a late first.
That's horrible. What do the Kings add to Bernier? Stoll?
Terrible Asset management.

We could get more and even a better goalie for that package. And with Bernier, we wouldn't have had the pick to get Teuvo. Now our options go down to Toews, Bolland, Kayes, Krüger, Shaw and Pirri. This really doesn't look as good as it looks now.
Goal is still not fixed, but Bernier hasn't shown he would be that improvement over what we have.

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01-16-2013, 05:28 AM
  #678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
2 things this team isn't lacking in the slightest. Again I am sick of hearing about PMD or slick skating players, guess what every team needs a few grinders, muckers and battlers. Bowman thinks this to be untrue, look at his moves, not a single D minded Dman with size, not 1 power forward who uses his body and he got rid of Ladd, Buff, Brouwer and Kopecky, guys who for better or worse filled those roles.

It's one of the main reasons our PP and PK are terrible, on one end we have 5 guys passing the puck around the outside of the zone and taking shots without anyone infront of the goalie. On the PK opposing forwards can camp out in front of the net because we lack any size and toughness in the back, other then Seabs.
I'm all about some quality bottom six grit. Would love Zach Smith in the Indian Head. Kyle Calder was my favorite player. They just need to be competent NHL talents.

Sopel wasn't.

And clearly I appreciated Kopecky. He still makes a million more than he should.

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01-16-2013, 05:33 AM
  #679
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Oduya blocks alot of shots too.. and that's the only thing Sopel brought to the team. Combine Oduya's shot blocking with his skating and puck-moving and it's easy to see why he's such a better hockey player. You want a player simular to Sopel only significantly better? Bowman brought in Roszival.

And, Bowman didn't "get rid of" Ladd or Buff, c'mon now. I always liked Brouwer, but I'd say that 95% of the board was happy to get a first for him and the player selected with that first is a warrior, a talented one, who can impact the game physically along wth his skill and two-way play. Kopecky.. boy was I glad to see him go. As a 4th liner I didn't mind him, but in the role he was given by Q in 2010-11, as a top-6 option, I couldn't stand him. Would you have been willing to pay Kopecky 3M+? Which is what he got from Florida and what he was going to get on the open market.. I wouldn't have.

The reason why our PK sucks is because the Hawks Dmen are instructed to leave the fowards infront of our goalie alone. The D wasn't any smaller or bigger last year than it was in 2009-10, they were just instructed differently on how to defend on the PK. You had Keith, Seabrook, Hammer and Sopel as the PK pairings that year vs. Keith, Seabrook, Hammer and Oduya/Leddy/O'Donnell/Olsen in 2012. I'm not seeing a large difference in beef or grittiness between the two years, but I've noticed a huge difference in how they play on the PK.

As for the PP, yes I do admitt the Hawks miss a guy like Kopecky screening the goalie.. but they have big guys who should be put there that Q and co. refuse to use. I mean, when Bickell was getting scratched every other night last year, Q could have said to him: "Bickell, if you want to play in the NHL, get your ass infront of goaltender on the PP and don't move".. yet, Bickell has never been used in that role and the one time when he was, in the Phoenix series, he scored a goal by knocking home a rebound after screening Smith. What happened the next time around? A Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Keith unit..
This did drive me nuts, and again it's not just about size but about that mentality. I really don't see that win or die attitude from a lot of these players. That nice little 9 game losing streak taught us that.

Part of what helped so much in 09-10 was the forward group too, having guys like Madden who where great PK men and better talent top to bottom. Q was here in 2010 when they won the Cup and they played that style, I don't think he changed it totally, I think part of it is using what he have been given.

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01-16-2013, 05:36 AM
  #680
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
I'm all about some quality bottom six grit. Would love Zach Smith in the Indian Head. Kyle Calder was my favorite player. They just need to be competent NHL talents.

Sopel wasn't.

And clearly I appreciated Kopecky. He still makes a million more than he should.
I understand but why not replace them? Again that my beef, it seems Bowman took all the teeth out of this team. Chicago was always known for maybe not being the most talented team but a team that you knew you where in for a fight with. Now this team is like a cat without claws. Bowman seems to forget hockey is a violent and physical sport and to win you need some violent and physical players.

I am not saying go out and get a couple of meatheads to drop the gloves all the time, but give me some physical players for gods sake, Chicago is a smaller and certainly not very physical team. They finished bottom 10 in hits the last few years, looking at teams that Boston and LA dominate their way to a Cup it's clear that Bowmans skill vs grit style won't work, you need a balance that we don't have.

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01-16-2013, 05:40 AM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
This did drive me nuts, and again it's not just about size but about that mentality. I really don't see that win or die attitude from a lot of these players. That nice little 9 game losing streak taught us that.

Part of what helped so much in 09-10 was the forward group too, having guys like Madden who where great PK men and better talent top to bottom. Q was here in 2010 when they won the Cup and they played that style, I don't think he changed it totally, I think part of it is using what he have been given.
Q and co. haven't changed the sytle of play, in general, since the Hawks won the Cup. What has changed is how they defend, 5-on-5.. how they come out of their zone and transition and how they use players on the PK and PP.

When they won the Cup, yes they were talented, but they played like a team. Last years team, you'd have the wingers racing out of the zone if there was even a slight chance the Hawks might gain the puck.. and by that time, the Dman is under so much pressure, because of the lack of support, that his only option was throwing the puck up the ice.. which led to turnovers, which because the forwards were all in the neutral zone, led to high-end scoring chances and goals.

If Chicago played like they did in 2009-10, they'd win the division with the talent they have. If they played like a team and protected Crawford like they did Niemi, they'd be, without doubt, an elite team in the NHL. Unless they do that though, they'll be a talented, yet inconsistent team and the goaltending will look worse than it actually is.. and I'm not trying to say Crawford is a stud, but he's nowhere near as bad as he looked last year.

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01-16-2013, 05:47 AM
  #682
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It's on coaching, not on the players as Hoss says. This team is very, very deep. It has holes, just like every NHL team.

Playing to our strengths and hiding our flaws as best we can is on the coaches.

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01-16-2013, 05:59 AM
  #683
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Don't get me wrong, I am ready for a change at coach as anyone. I wanted Q gone last year, I just think the problems are bigger then Q. This team has more holes then others and bigger ones and while I think a new coach could have more success I don't think any coach wins the Cup with this team as constructed so I don't blame Q for everything. I think a new GM, who brings in his own coach is the real answer.

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01-16-2013, 06:14 AM
  #684
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Like I said before, the only team's I can see in the NHL without any significant holes are Boston and LA.

Chicago might need a 2nd line centre or 3rd line centre, depending on how Bolland plays and how well Kruger/Shaw handle the 3rd line duties if Bolland works out and Chicago may need a goaltending upgrade, depending on how Crawford plays.

They have an outstanding top-6, especially if Bolland works out, and they have solid depth. They're Dmen, 1-7, are as good or better as any team's in the NHL.

When you look at other team's, especially in the West:

Detroit - They're old, will likely be prone to injuries and have lost 3 very good Dmen in the past 2 seasons in Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart and replaced them with White, Colaiacovo and Quincey. Haven't gotten out of the 2nd round and lost to a Nashville team that was handled pretty easily by Phoenix, the same team Chicago lost to.

St. Louis - All around great depth, but not alot of high-end talent and struggled to score last year in the playoffs. Despite a great season, Elliot floundered in the playoffs and Halak has never really grabbed the #1 reigns in St.Louis and ran with it. A very strong team, but Chicago didn't have much problem with them last year and I'd take Chicago over St.Louis in a 7-game series.

Nashville - Lost Suter, didn't replace him and like St.Louis lack high-end talent. They loaded up heavily last year and still couldn't get past the 2nd round. They'll always be a tough test, but Chicago's a far more talented team.. again, will come down to Chicago playing a structured game to get past them in the playoffs, should they meet.

Vancouver - Even with Kesler and Booth, they lacked secondary scoring last year. Kesler took a big step back and Raymond and Booth hardly produced. They have the Sedin's, who Chicago's shutdown everytime they've faced them in the playoffs and Schnieder will really have to prove himself this year, coming in as the started as opposed to the back-up. They have a solid defense, but it's not as good as Chicago's at the top or 1-through-7.

Minny - They have goaltending and really improved their offense and defense with Suter and Parise coming in.. but Chicago's still the more talented team and Chicago still has a better defense. Minny's also going into the season with a rookie as their 2nd line centre; a very talented rookie, mind you, in Granlund.. but a rookie nonetheless.

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01-16-2013, 09:09 AM
  #685
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Unless one of Barkov, Lindholm, Shinkaruk or Drouin fall out of the top-7, and fall hard, you're not getting anywhere near as talented a player as Teravainen in this draft. This draft is very deep and very talented, but assuming Chicago makes the playoffs, they'll likely be picking in the 18-30 range, depending on how they do in the playoffs. At that point in the draft, you're looking at: Andre Burakovsky, Josh Morrissey, Alex Wennberg, Max Domi, Artturi Lehkonen, Kerby Rychel, Anthony Duclair, Ryan Hartman, Frederik Gauthier, Bo Horvat, JT Compher, etc.

None of those players are close to as talented as Teravainen. I like Domi, I've seen him alot in London, but it's not close between TT and him and I would say Domi has the highest talent level of those group of prospects.

2013 is a great draft, but if TT were available in this draft (and he almost was), he'd be talked about in the top-10 without doubt and be competing with Shinkaruk and Lindholm. FYI, Lindholm and Shinkaruk are only a couple months younger than TT, being late-94's.
I will go out on a limb and say the player we draft this year in the 1st round will have a better career in the NHL than TT. I think TT is over rated on this board. Ya, he has talent, so did a lot of palyers that never made it to the NHL.

If the scouts are right, this will be the best draft since 2003, you never know what kind of player you are going to get, just like we never know what kind of player TT will be.

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01-16-2013, 10:19 AM
  #686
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
2 things this team isn't lacking in the slightest. Again I am sick of hearing about PMD or slick skating players, guess what every team needs a few grinders, muckers and battlers. Bowman thinks this to be untrue, look at his moves, not a single D minded Dman with size, not 1 power forward who uses his body and he got rid of Ladd, Buff, Brouwer and Kopecky, guys who for better or worse filled those roles.

It's one of the main reasons our PP and PK are terrible, on one end we have 5 guys passing the puck around the outside of the zone and taking shots without anyone infront of the goalie. On the PK opposing forwards can camp out in front of the net because we lack any size and toughness in the back, other then Seabs.
You should be proud, this is the most ridiculous thing I've seen all week.

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01-16-2013, 10:55 AM
  #687
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Like I said before, the only team's I can see in the NHL without any significant holes are Boston and LA.

Chicago might need a 2nd line centre or 3rd line centre, depending on how Bolland plays and how well Kruger/Shaw handle the 3rd line duties if Bolland works out and Chicago may need a goaltending upgrade, depending on how Crawford plays.

They have an outstanding top-6, especially if Bolland works out, and they have solid depth. They're Dmen, 1-7, are as good or better as any team's in the NHL.

When you look at other team's, especially in the West:

Detroit - They're old, will likely be prone to injuries and have lost 3 very good Dmen in the past 2 seasons in Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart and replaced them with White, Colaiacovo and Quincey. Haven't gotten out of the 2nd round and lost to a Nashville team that was handled pretty easily by Phoenix, the same team Chicago lost to.

St. Louis - All around great depth, but not alot of high-end talent and struggled to score last year in the playoffs. Despite a great season, Elliot floundered in the playoffs and Halak has never really grabbed the #1 reigns in St.Louis and ran with it. A very strong team, but Chicago didn't have much problem with them last year and I'd take Chicago over St.Louis in a 7-game series.

Nashville - Lost Suter, didn't replace him and like St.Louis lack high-end talent. They loaded up heavily last year and still couldn't get past the 2nd round. They'll always be a tough test, but Chicago's a far more talented team.. again, will come down to Chicago playing a structured game to get past them in the playoffs, should they meet.

Vancouver - Even with Kesler and Booth, they lacked secondary scoring last year. Kesler took a big step back and Raymond and Booth hardly produced. They have the Sedin's, who Chicago's shutdown everytime they've faced them in the playoffs and Schnieder will really have to prove himself this year, coming in as the started as opposed to the back-up. They have a solid defense, but it's not as good as Chicago's at the top or 1-through-7.

Minny - They have goaltending and really improved their offense and defense with Suter and Parise coming in.. but Chicago's still the more talented team and Chicago still has a better defense. Minny's also going into the season with a rookie as their 2nd line centre; a very talented rookie, mind you, in Granlund.. but a rookie nonetheless.
We have potentially the worst goaltender among those teams. There is no evidence that our defense is better than a lot of these teams'.

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01-16-2013, 10:58 AM
  #688
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Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
We have potentially the worst goaltender among those teams. There is no evidence that our defense is better than a lot of these teams'.
It depends if the real Crawford is the .917 save percentage goalie from 2 years ago or the .903 guy from last year. Will tell the story of our season.

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01-16-2013, 11:11 AM
  #689
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You should be proud, this is the most ridiculous thing I've seen all week.
Yeah, facing reality does hurt sometimes. The intensity in this years NHL will be play-off-like from game one and there will be no gimme games at all; no Eastern Conference team doormats to dominate. This will be a big test for the Hawks to play with more grit then they have played with in the past and turn around their flawed specialty team performance, or risk having an embarrassing year. Mild mannered teams that don’t match the intensity level are liable to get buried near the bottom of the heap.

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01-16-2013, 11:43 AM
  #690
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I will go out on a limb and say the player we draft this year in the 1st round will have a better career in the NHL than TT. I think TT is over rated on this board. Ya, he has talent, so did a lot of palyers that never made it to the NHL.

If the scouts are right, this will be the best draft since 2003, you never know what kind of player you are going to get, just like we never know what kind of player TT will be.
I'm afraid it's not TT that's overrated, it's you're thinking that the entire 1st round of the 2013 draft is going to be amazing and filled with players as good or better than TT; that's what's overrated. There are alot of talented players available in the 1st round, especially at the top, but you're not going to get someone as good as TT in the range the Hawks are picking in unless someone at the top falls hard.

As I believe I said in my other post, if TT was availabe in this years draft - and he's only a couple weeks removed from being available in 2013 - he'd be in the conversation with Lindholm and Shinkaruk without a doubt.

As to the bolded: If the scouts are right, Teravainen could challenge for the best offensive player taken in the 2012 draft. His offensive upside was talked about in the same class as Yakupov and Galchenyuk.

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01-16-2013, 11:45 AM
  #691
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We have potentially the worst goaltender among those teams. There is no evidence that our defense is better than a lot of these teams'.
Based on talent, Chicago's defense is as good or better than all of those teams.

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01-16-2013, 11:58 AM
  #692
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I'm afraid it's not TT that's overrated, it's you're thinking that the entire 1st round of the 2013 draft is going to be amazing and filled with players as good or better than TT; that's what's overrated. There are alot of talented players available in the 1st round, especially at the top, but you're not going to get someone as good as TT in the range the Hawks are picking in unless someone at the top falls hard.

As I believe I said in my other post, if TT was availabe in this years draft - and he's only a couple weeks removed from being available in 2013 - he'd be in the conversation with Lindholm and Shinkaruk without a doubt.

As to the bolded: If the scouts are right, Teravainen could challenge for the best offensive player taken in the 2012 draft. His offensive upside was talked about in the same class as Yakupov and Galchenyuk.
Why wouldn't we get someone as talented as TT in this years draft? You seem to think TT is above and beyond everything in this years draft aside from 5-10 players. If TT was available in this years draft, he could possibly fall even further than he did last year, it can go both ways.

TT could challenege for the best offensive player in 2012, but some of the other scouts could also be right too, since 17 of them passed on him.

It's not crazy to think the player we draft this year could turn out to be better than TT.

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01-16-2013, 12:09 PM
  #693
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Why wouldn't we get someone as talented as TT in this years draft? You seem to think TT is above and beyond everything in this years draft aside from 5-10 players. If TT was available in this years draft, he could possibly fall even further than he did last year, it can go both ways.

TT could challenege for the best offensive player in 2012, but some of the other scouts could also be right too, since 17 of them passed on him.

It's not crazy to think the player we draft this year could turn out to be better than TT.
Based on what? His resume being now larger and even more successful than it was last year?

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01-16-2013, 12:12 PM
  #694
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Based on what? His resume being now larger and even more successful than it was last year?
Same could be said for the players who are being drafted this year.

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01-16-2013, 12:15 PM
  #695
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Based on talent, Chicago's defense is as good or better than all of those teams.
Yeah theoretically Leddy is awesome and takes the next step, Oduya is fast, blocks shots and doesn't turn the puck over all the time, Hammer actually returns to his 09-10 talent level, Rozy plays 48 games on 2nd pair, and...

Q and co. pull their heads out of their ***** on D and PK. Realistically we have Seabs & Keith and a bunch of "guys." And a horrible system.

Unfortunately, the actual results from the past couple of seasons say that this team's D isn't any good.

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01-16-2013, 12:16 PM
  #696
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Yeah, facing reality does hurt sometimes. The intensity in this years NHL will be play-off-like from game one and there will be no gimme games at all; no Eastern Conference team doormats to dominate. This will be a big test for the Hawks to play with more grit then they have played with in the past and turn around their flawed specialty team performance, or risk having an embarrassing year. Mild mannered teams that don’t match the intensity level are liable to get buried near the bottom of the heap.
Excellent point since the Hawks had the second best winning percentage against East teams in the conference behind only St. Louis.

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01-16-2013, 12:18 PM
  #697
Hawkaholic
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Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
Oduya is fast, blocks shots and doesn't turn the puck over all the time,
This is already true.

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01-16-2013, 12:23 PM
  #698
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Why wouldn't we get someone as talented as TT in this years draft? You seem to think TT is above and beyond everything in this years draft aside from 5-10 players. If TT was available in this years draft, he could possibly fall even further than he did last year, it can go both ways.

TT could challenege for the best offensive player in 2012, but some of the other scouts could also be right too, since 17 of them passed on him.

It's not crazy to think the player we draft this year could turn out to be better than TT.
Personally, I think you simply don't know just how good Teravainen is. If Teravainen was availabe in this draft, he would be talked about in the top-10. He had 11 points at the WJC, was a PpG in the games that mattered - again, as one of the youngest forwards - and has been a PpG player in the SM-Liiga after a slow start. There's not a chance he wouldn't be rated in the top-10 if he, again, was born only a few weeks later than he was.

I'm not saying Teravainen's going to be a star player. But, IMO, he's going to be at least a top-6 forward and I don't see anyone available in the draft where the Hawks will be picking that I feel comfortable saying that about. I like alot of the players rated there: Duclair, Domi, Morrissey.. but none as much as I like Teravainen. And, it's not one of those "My team picked him, so of course I'm going to be high on him" things.. I was a huge fan of TT well before he was drafted by Chicago and I was losing my mind as the picks went by and he was still available when Chicago stepped to the podium.

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01-16-2013, 12:23 PM
  #699
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Same could be said for the players who are being drafted this year.
I don't even understand what point you're trying to make here.

TT is only a few weeks removed from being a 2013 draftee, so his development probably would've taken the exact same course it already has if he were past the mark.

So we add his SM-Liiga accomplishments last year to what he has this year. This year, TT has the second-highest PPG of all U20 players in the SM-Liiga (behind only Barkov), he had a great performance on an underperforming Finnish WJC team.

And you're telling me that means he might fall even further than he did last year?

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01-16-2013, 12:26 PM
  #700
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As we saw last year, there seems to be an overvaluing of D going on in the league right now, whether that be the draft, trades or signings. It's difficult to project how far forwards could fall.

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