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How should the Jets handle Scheifele?

View Poll Results: How should be handle Scheifele?
Keep him down in Barrie, no camp 17 9.94%
Bring him to camp and a few games to gain experience, but send him back down regardless of results 66 38.60%
Bring him to camp and a few games, keep him if he performs 81 47.37%
He should stay up no matter what, he's NHL ready and we need him 7 4.09%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-09-2013, 04:36 PM
  #126
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By trading him in a package to Toronto for Kessel

 
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01-09-2013, 04:39 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Sweech View Post
I'm waiting for truck's or garret's statistical breakdown. He might be seeing easy reporting competition which might be inflating his "ya know" numbers. Regardless, they're impressive numbers, if given the proper postgame role, he could really take off for the Jets.
Lawl... eff you Sweech

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01-09-2013, 05:07 PM
  #128
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They shouldn't burn a year of his ELC on a half season.

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01-09-2013, 05:14 PM
  #129
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By trading him in a package to Toronto for Kessel
Ewww

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01-09-2013, 06:52 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by broinwhyteridge View Post
They shouldn't burn a year of his ELC on a half season.
It's a full season; it's just a 48-game one. What does it matter how many games are in the season?

There are several reasons to keep Scheifele in Junior this year. I can't see how the length of the pro season is one of them.

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Old
01-09-2013, 09:13 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
He may eventually be a #2 centre, but I don't think anybody said firmly that he would be a #1.

Also, I'm not quite sure what point naming the top 5 makes. You might as well have said Schiefele won't be a number 1 centre because:

MARIO LEMIEUX!!

There were 25 #1 centre who weren't on your list and better than Little is all I really want.

FWIW

25G, 30A for 55P would have ranked him tied for 24th among centres last year.

That would make him a number one on a handful of teams.

A consistent 55-65 point scorer would be huge.
I don't want a #1 center on the 24th best team...I want a #1 center on a top 5 team.

I didn't come here to argue, I stopped coming here years ago because of that reason. Be well man, enjoy the season.

Z

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01-09-2013, 09:15 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
I think the issue was if you actually look through this thread...there aren't many posts extolling Schiefele as "this teams savior". It seems most of us have a similar expectation to you, he should top out as an above average 2c or a average to below average 1C.

Also off last years stats, check nhl.com again, 55 points would have been good for 24th Center in the league, that's a 1C.

edit:

Also this quote

there was literally 2 of 118 votes for keeping him up even if he doesn't earn it...
24th best #1 center in the league...respectfully I say, no thanks. Much of what I am reading here is a resistance to accepting what it takes to be a real winning team; this is more about that then Scheifele. I am seeing a similar "acceptance" in this fan base then I saw during the 80's and 90's. Take a look at the best teams and how they did it and ask yourself if Scheifele could play on any of them and be a "star" or even a contributor on a third line level...I can't say for sure however I simply have my doubts. I see things I like in his game, I love how he has a nose for the net but how does he really handle the adult game? Is he strong enough physically? Will he be? What happens when he has to deal with the real physicality of the game at the adult level in March? We will see.
The Jets will forever be weighed against choosing him over Couturier, sorry to say. The Flyers seem to know something about strong players who can step in immediately. I like that in their system. This was the Jets FIRST pick upon return and truth is, we all have opinions and ideas of what "might" be and Flyer fans already know...Sorry for picking the scab but any reasonable debater has to understand this position.

Z


Last edited by Datsun260Z: 01-09-2013 at 09:29 PM.
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01-09-2013, 09:49 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
I don't want a #1 center on the 24th best team...I want a #1 center on a top 5 team.

I didn't come here to argue, I stopped coming here years ago because of that reason. Be well man, enjoy the season.

Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
24th best #1 center in the league...respectfully I say, no thanks.

Z
I'll breakdown Little soon enough
The reason of these forums is for people of similar interests to share their views...
But the idea of top and what's a 1st/2nd liner is very subjective

Little scored goals at a faster rate per ice-time than:
Datsuyk
Turris
Carter
Bergeron
Kopitar
Stastny
O. Jokinen

EX:
Little got points at a faster rate per ice-time than:
Getzlav
Kesler

Not saying this makes Little a first liner at all. Just showing how everything can be really subjective. I'll give my true opinions of Little when I make my Little breakdown (still have to build my Bogosian one and then onto Ladd/Little/Wheeler).

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01-09-2013, 10:32 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
24th best #1 center in the l
The Jets will forever be weighed against choosing him over Couturier, sorry to say. The Flyers seem to know something about strong players who can step in immediately. I like that in their system. This was the Jets FIRST pick upon return and truth is, we all have opinions and ideas of what "might" be and Flyer fans already know...Sorry for picking the scab but any reasonable debater has to understand this position.
Much better FIRST pick than Jets 1.0 (Jimmy Mann)


Last edited by Jet: 01-10-2013 at 12:35 AM. Reason: fixed tags
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01-09-2013, 10:54 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
24th best #1 center in the league...respectfully I say, no thanks. Much of what I am reading here is a resistance to accepting what it takes to be a real winning team; this is more about that then Scheifele. I am seeing a similar "acceptance" in this fan base then I saw during the 80's and 90's. Take a look at the best teams and how they did it and ask yourself if Scheifele could play on any of them and be a "star" or even a contributor on a third line level...I can't say for sure however I simply have my doubts. I see things I like in his game, I love how he has a nose for the net but how does he really handle the adult game? Is he strong enough physically? Will he be? What happens when he has to deal with the real physicality of the game at the adult level in March? We will see.
The Jets will forever be weighed against choosing him over Couturier, sorry to say. The Flyers seem to know something about strong players who can step in immediately. I like that in their system. This was the Jets FIRST pick upon return and truth is, we all have opinions and ideas of what "might" be and Flyer fans already know...Sorry for picking the scab but any reasonable debater has to understand this position.

Z
I didn't say I want the 24th ranked centre. I would love to have a top 5 guy, but 24th would be better than 42nd.

I have openly stated that I think Scheifele needs to score 60+ points consistently for this team to become a contender. Nobody wants the Jets to suck. Hopefully he gets there. Hopefully.

FWIW

I was part of camp Couturier. Can't do anything sbout it now though, so now I am in camp wait and see.

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01-09-2013, 11:42 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
24th best #1 center in the league...respectfully I say, no thanks. Much of what I am reading here is a resistance to accepting what it takes to be a real winning team; this is more about that then Scheifele. I am seeing a similar "acceptance" in this fan base then I saw during the 80's and 90's. Take a look at the best teams and how they did it and ask yourself if Scheifele could play on any of them and be a "star" or even a contributor on a third line level...I can't say for sure however I simply have my doubts. I see things I like in his game, I love how he has a nose for the net but how does he really handle the adult game? Is he strong enough physically? Will he be? What happens when he has to deal with the real physicality of the game at the adult level in March? We will see.
The Jets will forever be weighed against choosing him over Couturier, sorry to say. The Flyers seem to know something about strong players who can step in immediately. I like that in their system. This was the Jets FIRST pick upon return and truth is, we all have opinions and ideas of what "might" be and Flyer fans already know...Sorry for picking the scab but any reasonable debater has to understand this position.
Z
I think I am losing you here, Datsun. I had agreed with your much earlier remarks that Scheif may not be ready for the rough stuff, especially as the season progresses, that he is as yet an unproven commodity, and might develop best by finishing the season in Barrie. But that has no bearing on how he may turn out in the future or the wisdom of picking him over Couturier. That stuff is pure speculation.
To use an example I have cited before, Jokinen, a superb centre, now into his second decade of top-tier production, did not break out until age 24, in his 6th NHL season. Scheifele is 19, still a pup. He has not got the rare talent of RNH or Landeskog, but no one else in the 2011 draft has as yet proven they are an NHL star. There is plenty of potential in Scheifele. Let's build his skills and confidence methodically and see where we are in a few years. In the meanwhile, many of us are tempering our expectations, while looking for that elusive top-10 centre, but they don't grow on trees.

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01-09-2013, 11:44 PM
  #137
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Leave him in Barrie. I am generally of the opinion that no teams should bother brining anybody playing major junior to camp.

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01-10-2013, 05:12 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
I think I am losing you here, Datsun. I had agreed with your much earlier remarks that Scheif may not be ready for the rough stuff, especially as the season progresses, that he is as yet an unproven commodity, and might develop best by finishing the season in Barrie. But that has no bearing on how he may turn out in the future or the wisdom of picking him over Couturier. That stuff is pure speculation.
To use an example I have cited before, Jokinen, a superb centre, now into his second decade of top-tier production, did not break out until age 24, in his 6th NHL season. Scheifele is 19, still a pup. He has not got the rare talent of RNH or Landeskog, but no one else in the 2011 draft has as yet proven they are an NHL star. There is plenty of potential in Scheifele. Let's build his skills and confidence methodically and see where we are in a few years. In the meanwhile, many of us are tempering our expectations, while looking for that elusive top-10 centre, but they don't grow on trees.
I am with you ALL the way, it takes time. I mentioned similar points earlier withe Kesler, it takes time in many cases. Couldn't possibly agree more. Don't agree how things are purely speculation. Some teams seemingly are better than others. Look at Detroit's drafting; how many guys have been incredible for them and picked in the late round. Lidstrom (3rd I believe) Datsyuk (6th or 7th??) Zetterberg (7th). I don't think Detroit speculated, I think the knew darn well what they were doing. Same with the teams like Vancouver when they took players like Edler late. Teams that put in the effort, know. Philly too, i mean Giroux, 22nd overall...21 other teams passed. They knew. Yes, no matter what it's still chance, life is chance but this was a gamble that I hope they (the Jets) win.

Z

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01-10-2013, 05:30 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
24th best #1 center in the league...respectfully I say, no thanks. Much of what I am reading here is a resistance to accepting what it takes to be a real winning team; this is more about that then Scheifele. I am seeing a similar "acceptance" in this fan base then I saw during the 80's and 90's. Take a look at the best teams and how they did it and ask yourself if Scheifele could play on any of them and be a "star" or even a contributor on a third line level...I can't say for sure however I simply have my doubts. I see things I like in his game, I love how he has a nose for the net but how does he really handle the adult game? Is he strong enough physically? Will he be? What happens when he has to deal with the real physicality of the game at the adult level in March? We will see.
The Jets will forever be weighed against choosing him over Couturier, sorry to say. The Flyers seem to know something about strong players who can step in immediately. I like that in their system. This was the Jets FIRST pick upon return and truth is, we all have opinions and ideas of what "might" be and Flyer fans already know...Sorry for picking the scab but any reasonable debater has to understand this position.

Z
Drafting out of the 7th spot history would tell us this would be a decent result.

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01-10-2013, 09:48 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
I am with you ALL the way, it takes time. I mentioned similar points earlier withe Kesler, it takes time in many cases. Couldn't possibly agree more. Don't agree how things are purely speculation. Some teams seemingly are better than others. Look at Detroit's drafting; how many guys have been incredible for them and picked in the late round. Lidstrom (3rd I believe) Datsyuk (6th or 7th??) Zetterberg (7th). I don't think Detroit speculated, I think the knew darn well what they were doing. Same with the teams like Vancouver when they took players like Edler late. Teams that put in the effort, know. Philly too, i mean Giroux, 22nd overall...21 other teams passed. They knew. Yes, no matter what it's still chance, life is chance but this was a gamble that I hope they (the Jets) win.

Z
I agree somewhat but there is still guess work and speculation.

In fact, the GM of Detroit then did say he had no idea that Datsyuk and Zetterberg was even going to be half as good as they turned out. He said that even if they were going to be as half as good he would have picked them in the first round.

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Drafting out of the 7th spot history would tell us this would be a decent result.
If Scheifele is a NHL regular for 6+ years we are already beating the odds for a his pick spot...

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01-10-2013, 09:56 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
24th best #1 center in the league...respectfully I say, no thanks. Much of what I am reading here is a resistance to accepting what it takes to be a real winning team; this is more about that then Scheifele. I am seeing a similar "acceptance" in this fan base then I saw during the 80's and 90's. Take a look at the best teams and how they did it and ask yourself if Scheifele could play on any of them and be a "star" or even a contributor on a third line level...I can't say for sure however I simply have my doubts. I see things I like in his game, I love how he has a nose for the net but how does he really handle the adult game? Is he strong enough physically? Will he be? What happens when he has to deal with the real physicality of the game at the adult level in March? We will see.
The Jets will forever be weighed against choosing him over Couturier, sorry to say. The Flyers seem to know something about strong players who can step in immediately. I like that in their system. This was the Jets FIRST pick upon return and truth is, we all have opinions and ideas of what "might" be and Flyer fans already know...Sorry for picking the scab but any reasonable debater has to understand this position.

Z
this isn't resistnace to "what it takes to be a winning team" it's reasonable expectations. I agree that you need those types of players to become a championship team, no disagreement there. But you don't get those types of player at 7th overall unless your VERY lucky.

It's extrodinarily rare that a top 1-5 talents is picked outiside of the top 5 picks in a draft, so assuming the jets first pick (at number7, which actually only has a 42% chance of becoming a consistant 45 point scorer) to become that, and being negative when it doesn't happen is ridiculous- this is my main bone.

Do you get extraordinarily dissapointed everytime you don't win the lottery?

I totally wanted couturier on draft day, but in fairness, he hasn't shown that he's going to be a top 1-5 center in this league one day yet either.

Can schiefele be a contributer on a star right now? Probably not, but who knows, haven't seen him in appropriate competition. He couldn't last year, i won't argue that. But he certainly to me, shows the tools, that yes, he can definitly become the type of player that can contribute on a team like that- but expecting him to do it at 19 is a little unreasonable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
I am with you ALL the way, it takes time. I mentioned similar points earlier withe Kesler, it takes time in many cases. Couldn't possibly agree more. Don't agree how things are purely speculation. Some teams seemingly are better than others. Look at Detroit's drafting; how many guys have been incredible for them and picked in the late round. Lidstrom (3rd I believe) Datsyuk (6th or 7th??) Zetterberg (7th). I don't think Detroit speculated, I think the knew darn well what they were doing. Same with the teams like Vancouver when they took players like Edler late. Teams that put in the effort, know. Philly too, i mean Giroux, 22nd overall...21 other teams passed. They knew. Yes, no matter what it's still chance, life is chance but this was a gamble that I hope they (the Jets) win.

Z
Detroits GM and scouting staff have said them self they got lucky. exact words were "if we knew how they'd turn out, we'd have taken them in the first". Also for detroits vast drafting/develiopment ability (though statistically yes, above the mean) they haven't produced a similar quality player in 10 years.

Almost every roster has one "great" player who was drafted late-so i disagree that vancouver is much above the norm.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Drafting out of the 7th spot history would tell us this would be a decent result.
exactly. The thing here is, no one is expecting Schiefele to be a top 5 center. Anyone upset that we weren't able to acquire a top five center with the 7th overall pick is setting themselves up for failure, and will NEVER be pleased.

You get those t ypes of players in three ways: you tank and pick extrodinarily high while getting a little bit of luck. You get extraordinarily lucky and draft them late Or 3, you pay through the nose in a trade for one.

I agree schiefele won't be a star. I agree you need those players to be a championship team. I do not agree that this should be somehow considered a black mark for our management team.

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01-10-2013, 04:32 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
this isn't resistnace to "what it takes to be a winning team" it's reasonable expectations. I agree that you need those types of players to become a championship team, no disagreement there. But you don't get those types of player at 7th overall unless your VERY lucky.

It's extrodinarily rare that a top 1-5 talents is picked outiside of the top 5 picks in a draft, so assuming the jets first pick (at number7, which actually only has a 42% chance of becoming a consistant 45 point scorer) to become that, and being negative when it doesn't happen is ridiculous- this is my main bone.

Do you get extraordinarily dissapointed everytime you don't win the lottery?

I totally wanted couturier on draft day, but in fairness, he hasn't shown that he's going to be a top 1-5 center in this league one day yet either.

Can schiefele be a contributer on a star right now? Probably not, but who knows, haven't seen him in appropriate competition. He couldn't last year, i won't argue that. But he certainly to me, shows the tools, that yes, he can definitly become the type of player that can contribute on a team like that- but expecting him to do it at 19 is a little unreasonable





Detroits GM and scouting staff have said them self they got lucky. exact words were "if we knew how they'd turn out, we'd have taken them in the first". Also for detroits vast drafting/develiopment ability (though statistically yes, above the mean) they haven't produced a similar quality player in 10 years.

Almost every roster has one "great" player who was drafted late-so i disagree that vancouver is much above the norm.





exactly. The thing here is, no one is expecting Schiefele to be a top 5 center. Anyone upset that we weren't able to acquire a top five center with the 7th overall pick is setting themselves up for failure, and will NEVER be pleased.

You get those t ypes of players in three ways: you tank and pick extrodinarily high while getting a little bit of luck. You get extraordinarily lucky and draft them late Or 3, you pay through the nose in a trade for one.

I agree schiefele won't be a star. I agree you need those players to be a championship team. I do not agree that this should be somehow considered a black mark for our management team.
I fully expect a team to make a pick in the 7th spot that can play in the top 9 and if not they're not doing their job well and I think I am being very generous there. If I am so wrong how did Philly do it with Giroux (22nd) and Vancouver with Kesler (23rd)? You should be able to wrangle a pretty darned good player with the 7th overall pick. See Jeff Skinner. And AGAIN, if Scheifele turns into a great #2...awesome. I can see a lot of Kesler's "big" game in him and I love his nose for the net.

Also, perhaps it's the Wings staff being a tad modest?...just saying. I mean what are they supposed to say? "We knew it all along"?

I think making good picks comes down to your scouting staff. A GM can't possibly know everything about everyone...he must trust his hired team of eyes. In Scheifele's case, as we all know, Chevy trusted Hawerchuk. In Edler's case it was Thomas Gradin, former Vancouver Canuck. Both ex players were trusted by their respective ex teams management. Point is, I don't always believe in luck as much as I might confess to believing in gut feelings, hunches or...what you see right in front of you. I just don't buy this luck thing. I mean fate...okay. Luc Bourdon, God rest his soul, had a fate no one could imagine but he was drafted on what was right in front of Vancouver's eyes. No luck there man. None.

And I don't believe I said I expect Scheifele to be a top 5 center over all in the league did I? I said the opposite. I mentioned those players to drive home a point that I believe is clearly missed here. He isn't that good, thus, he isn't a top line center on a top end team. That is all. Then people here start talking about 50 to 60 points being good enough for 24th best and I shake my head. Who in the name of good hockey sense wants our number one center to be good for 24th overall? I just think people need to be realistic where this kids overall development is concerned. Excuse me however people I speak about hockey with in Wpg don't really seem to get the big picture and honestly I think that's due in part to Winnipeg actually knowing what a really good hockey team looks like. I had people in this city tell me last year the Kyle Wellwood was a worthless signing and a waste of a roster spot...how'd that turn out?

Winnipeg fans seem to have this blind faith that this kid is the shebang and I don't. I question a lot about him and even more now that this years w.jr is over. For a kid who was on the top line with one of the games most gifted players in RNH they still managed only 4th place...just sayin. Generally the Canadian Jr. team should go the way of it's top line no? He simply wasn't good enough to really feed off an incredible player like RNH...That concerns me. AND then he tossed out a knee in the loss to the Americans....was that the first window into his true character? I hope not cause if he pulls a move like that in the show someone's gonna kill him and it will be hard for his teammates to stand behind that sort of play.

Z

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01-10-2013, 04:36 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
I fully expect a team to make a pick in the 7th spot that can play in the top 9 and if not they're not doing their job well and I think I am being very generous there. If I am so wrong how did Philly do it with Giroux (22nd) and Vancouver with Kesler (23rd)? You should be able to wrangle a pretty darned good player with the 7th overall pick. See Jeff Skinner. And AGAIN, if Scheifele turns into a great #2...awesome. I can see a lot of Kesler's "big" game in him and I love his nose for the net.

Also, perhaps it's the Wings staff being a tad modest?...just saying. I mean what are they supposed to say? "We knew it all along"?

I think making good picks comes down to your scouting staff. A GM can't possibly know everything about everyone...he must trust his hired team of eyes. In Scheifele's case, as we all know, Chevy trusted Hawerchuk. In Edler's case it was Thomas Gradin, former Vancouver Canuck. Both ex players were trusted by their respective ex teams management. Point is, I don't always believe in luck as much as I might confess to believing in gut feelings, hunches or...what you see right in front of you. I just don't buy this luck thing. I mean fate...okay. Luc Bourdon, God rest his soul, had a fate no one could imagine but he was drafted on what was right in front of Vancouver's eyes. No luck there man. None.

And I don't believe I said I expect Scheifele to be a top 5 center over all in the league did I? I said the opposite. I mentioned those players to drive home a point that I believe is clearly missed here. He isn't that good, thus, he isn't a top line center on a top end team. That is all. Then people here start talking about 50 to 60 points being good enough for 24th best and I shake my head. Who in the name of good hockey sense wants our number one center to be good for 24th overall? I just think people need to be realistic where this kids overall development is concerned. Excuse me however people I speak about hockey with in Wpg don't really seem to get the big picture and honestly I think that's due in part to Winnipeg actually knowing what a really good hockey team looks like. I had people in this city tell me last year the Kyle Wellwood was a worthless signing and a waste of a roster spot...how'd that turn out?

Winnipeg fans seem to have this blind faith that this kid is the shebang and I don't. I question a lot about him and even more now that this years w.jr is over. For a kid who was on the top line with one of the games most gifted players in RNH they still managed only 4th place...just sayin. Generally the Canadian Jr. team should go the way of it's top line no? He simply wasn't good enough to really feed off an incredible player like RNH...That concerns me. AND then he tossed out a knee in the loss to the Americans....was that the first window into his true character? I hope not cause if he pulls a move like that in the show someone's gonna kill him and it will be hard for his teammates to stand behind that sort of play.

Z
I really like this post. Very well said.

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01-10-2013, 05:19 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
<edited by garret9 to condense space>...


Z
A lot of mix of truth and opinions I both agree and disagree with (ps disagreement doesn't mean I think you're wrong... just how opinions go )...

*Regarding 7th spot
Ya there's a lot of luck to it but you're 100% right in that it has to do with the teams scouting staff as well. And, not touched by either sides of the argument yet: the individual strength of each draft varies too so obviously a #7 shouldn't always be considered equal... but for fun...
A decent prospect should be in the NHL by 4 years (of course always exceptions), so #7s of 2008-1998:
2008 Nashville Colin Wilson
2007 Columbus Jakub Voracek
2006 NY Islanders Kyle Okposo
2005 Chicago Jack Skille
2004 Florida Rostislav Olesz
2003 Nashville Ryan Suter
2002 Anaheim Joffrey Lupul
2001 Montreal Mike Komisarek
2000 Boston Lars Jonsson
1999 Washington Kris Beech
1998 NY Rangers Manny Malhotra
Hmm that list is definitely interesting of all sorts of up and down levels haha

*Regarding Detroit draft
I don't think they were modest at all. Detroit had 11 draft picks that year and only 2 guys who ever played more than 2 NHL games (1 of them being Datsyuk). They had 5 guys they personally selected as BETTER than Datsyuk who never played a SINGLE NHL game. Zetterber the next year had 4 guys picked before him who never played a single NHL game. Detroit does have on average a better percentage of picks being NHL regulars than most teams, but they've still have more misses than hits... even in late 1st rounds the misses become huge... by all teams.

*Regarding Scouting Staff
Agreed! I once used an analogy that the Draft is like popping a few balloons posted on the wall with darts, but you are blind folded, but your friend (scouting staff) can whisper in your ear where to go, but they forgot their glasses. They can improve you but in the end there is still a lot of guessing.

*Regarding Scheifele and Wellwood
I don't want Scheifele to just be 24th overall... I would like better. But, I'm also a realist and I like to also keep my expectations low. I agree that I'd doubt he'll be a top 10 C unfortunately, but I still think he'll upgrade on Little. I personally *please no one bite me* think Couturier>Scheifele but I still understand how someone would think otherwise. I don't think the distance between them potential wise is that much that people need to raise pitchforks. I had my doubts on Wellwood when he first signed if he'd find a proper role, but his underlying numbers have always been good.

*Regarding Scheif at WJC and WJC
Single elimination tournaments happen. TC beat easily the teams that beat them. If you had changed the order it would have been a different tourney. Heck CBJ last year beat Van, Det, LAK and SJS... some multiple times. **** happens. I also don't think that Canada and the other 3 big countries are that far apart anymore.
I don't think Scheifele played bad for his first time on the wing in a contest against some of the best in the world. His balance did scare me as I don't think it is where I'd want it to be at this point but overall as a whole his progression has been fine by me and matches some great players.



PS I bolded the Detroit thing not actually stressing it at you but because a lot of people in general need to remember this (myself included)


Last edited by garret9: 01-10-2013 at 05:27 PM.
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01-10-2013, 05:25 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
I really like this post. Very well said.
You can't deny the crap shoot element of the draft. Even the best drafting teams make bad picks. Certainly some teams are better than others, but every team picks busts.

Using results is flawed too. Sure a team may get a "steal" with a 23rd overall pick, but unless you know that they didn't have multiple busts listed ahead of that pick you can't give them full credit. He could have been ranked as the 23rd on their list.

Also when it comes to players like Datsyuk...

If you know they will be great, you don't wait or else somebody else could draft them. You definitely don't draft 3 or 4 players that you know will be crappy ahead of them.

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01-10-2013, 05:26 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
I really like this post. Very well said.
What a surprise.

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01-10-2013, 05:41 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
I really like this post. Very well said.
Thank you, and I too am a solid Postma fan. I like his game from what little I've seen.

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01-10-2013, 05:51 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
Thank you, and I too am a solid Postma fan. I like his game from what little I've seen.
Scheifele is a better hockey player today than Postma is. His potential is also quite a bit higher

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01-10-2013, 05:53 PM
  #149
Datsun260Z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
A lot of mix of truth and opinions I both agree and disagree with (ps disagreement doesn't mean I think you're wrong... just how opinions go )...

*Regarding 7th spot
Ya there's a lot of luck to it but you're 100% right in that it has to do with the teams scouting staff as well. And, not touched by either sides of the argument yet: the individual strength of each draft varies too so obviously a #7 shouldn't always be considered equal... but for fun...
A decent prospect should be in the NHL by 4 years (of course always exceptions), so #7s of 2008-1998:
2008 Nashville Colin Wilson
2007 Columbus Jakub Voracek
2006 NY Islanders Kyle Okposo
2005 Chicago Jack Skille
2004 Florida Rostislav Olesz
2003 Nashville Ryan Suter
2002 Anaheim Joffrey Lupul
2001 Montreal Mike Komisarek
2000 Boston Lars Jonsson
1999 Washington Kris Beech
1998 NY Rangers Manny Malhotra
Hmm that list is definitely interesting of all sorts of up and down levels haha

Many of these players have contributed solid efforts. I gravitate to Suter in 03. Man that turned into a fine player. Malholtra's no slouch and Lupul is a really underrated guy. On a side note, which does support my point on the talent of scouting staffs; how does PErry slip to 28? Wow..


*Regarding Detroit draft
I don't think they were modest at all. Detroit had 11 draft picks that year and only 2 guys who ever played more than 2 NHL games (1 of them being Datsyuk). They had 5 guys they personally selected as BETTER than Datsyuk who never played a SINGLE NHL game. Zetterber the next year had 4 guys picked before him who never played a single NHL game. Detroit does have on average a better percentage of picks being NHL regulars than most teams, but they've still have more misses than hits... even in late 1st rounds the misses become huge... by all teams.

Okay...point well taken. However, when they hit....THEY HIT!


*Regarding Scouting Staff
Agreed! I once used an analogy that the Draft is like popping a few balloons posted on the wall with darts, but you are blind folded, but your friend (scouting staff) can whisper in your ear where to go, but they forgot their glasses. They can improve you but in the end there is still a lot of guessing.



*Regarding Scheifele and Wellwood
I don't want Scheifele to just be 24th overall... I would like better. But, I'm also a realist and I like to also keep my expectations low. I agree that I'd doubt he'll be a top 10 C unfortunately, but I still think he'll upgrade on Little. I personally *please no one bite me* think Couturier>Scheifele but I still understand how someone would think otherwise. I don't think the distance between them potential wise is that much that people need to raise pitchforks. I had my doubts on Wellwood when he first signed if he'd find a proper role, but his underlying numbers have always been good.

Wellwood is an incredibly underrated player with outstanding vision and a ton of heart. If this team makes the playoffs he will produce when the need it the most. I was very surprised Vancouver moved on from him cause the numbers in hindsight show that he may actually have been better for them than Malholtra. I have a question for you...how would you feel if Scheifele was the best third line center on the nhl on this team? Get where I am going with this?


*Regarding Scheif at WJC and WJC
Single elimination tournaments happen. TC beat easily the teams that beat them. If you had changed the order it would have been a different tourney. Heck CBJ last year beat Van, Det, LAK and SJS... some multiple times. **** happens. I also don't think that Canada and the other 3 big countries are that far apart anymore.
I don't think Scheifele played bad for his first time on the wing in a contest against some of the best in the world. His balance did scare me as I don't think it is where I'd want it to be at this point but overall as a whole his progression has been fine by me and matches some great players.

I am not convinced; agree to disagree...for now.




PS I bolded the Detroit thing not actually stressing it at you but because a lot of people in general need to remember this (myself included)
Okay, love the post but it's a biggie so I am replying partially within your post "bolded" for simplicities sake...I think? lol

Thanks for the concise reply! Talk again I hope.

Z

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01-10-2013, 05:58 PM
  #150
garret9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
Okay, love the post but it's a biggie so I am replying partially within your post "bolded" for simplicities sake...I think? lol

Thanks for the concise reply! Talk again I hope.

Z
It workd I got it

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