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How should the Jets handle Scheifele?

View Poll Results: How should be handle Scheifele?
Keep him down in Barrie, no camp 17 9.94%
Bring him to camp and a few games to gain experience, but send him back down regardless of results 66 38.60%
Bring him to camp and a few games, keep him if he performs 81 47.37%
He should stay up no matter what, he's NHL ready and we need him 7 4.09%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-11-2013, 05:23 PM
  #176
garret9
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I think you ought to be careful about making generalizations about Winnipeg fans and then projecting them onto this message board.

I'm not saying this to scold you, I'm not even saying that as a moderator. I'm just throwing that out there, that it's not really helping your argument on these boards. The collective level of hockey knowledge around here is pretty astounding, actually.
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01-11-2013, 05:41 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
That you would present the comments of a single poster as representative of anything other than the opinion of that individual poster conversely tells us that you are perhaps being disingenuous. Sorry if that offends...

The comments made by callers to 1290 represent the opinions of only those callers, of the few people predisposed to call a radio station and offer their views, etc. That does not speak to the general hockey IQ in this city whatsoever.
Read my words clearly, it was not a caller it was the host. And sorry to say but people in this city listen to tripe like that and think it's the word of hockey Gawd. The media educates whether you agree or not.

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01-11-2013, 05:49 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
Read my words clearly, it was not a caller it was the host. And sorry to say but people in this city listen to tripe like that and think it's the word of hockey Gawd. The media educates whether you agree or not.
I read your post clearly; not once did you state the word host whatsoever. Perhaps it is your own comprehension that requires some work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
Look, I am sorry you don't like what I have to say about hockey talk in Winnipeg but truth is, someone in THIS thread tells me Scheifele is better than Postma...well do I need to say more man? sorry that offends but the truth hurts in this case. Last year I sit myself down at the MTS and I have people all around me saying the most inane comments a person could hear at a hockey game; eg. Player dumps puck deep at the red line and guy behind me screeches "why'd he give the puck away!" - cause its a line change bro.... Even that illegal curve show on 1290...the kid says the other day, "winnipeg always supported it's team...ALWAYS, the Jets didn't leave because they were not supported" This is radio in Winnipeg? Hockey radio? And I'm outta line brother...I don't think I am out of line one iota. The other talking head was quick to correct, he says, "actually, that is why they left the city." It's embarrassing. So forgive me, I watch 100 game a year on average since the late 90's. I enjoyed the Canucks rise to dominance and I enjoyed them build a fairly fantastic team...up the middle. I am by no means an expert but I know a team needs their centermen to know their roles and deliver one them consistently.
I admit though that I didn't read much of it after the point when you inferred that the opinions of an individual poster were representative of anything other than that. You lost me there.

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Old
01-11-2013, 05:50 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I think you ought to be careful about making generalizations about Winnipeg fans and then projecting them onto this message board.

I'm not saying this to scold you, I'm not even saying that as a moderator. I'm just throwing that out there, that it's not really helping your argument on these boards. The collective level of hockey knowledge around here is pretty astounding, actually.



What if Scheifele became the equivalent of a Krejci or Bergeron? Not a phenom, but simply an extremely solid #1C who plays well at both ends of the rink.

I don't think there's any hard and fast rule that you need an elite #1 C (or better than 24th best, whatever distinction you want to use) to compete for a championship.
you don't like it, sorry you don't like generalizations. Life is full of em...

Bergeron is a very good center. I'd polish the golden boy's feet if he was as good a player as him. I don't think you'd find a happier winnipegger.

Perhaps having an elite #1 is not mandatory but it will make the task a little more realistic.

I wont generalize if people here realistically compare positional players to the proper positions....I mean common already!


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 01-11-2013 at 06:10 PM. Reason: nobody is threatening anybody
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01-11-2013, 05:55 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Scheifele IS better than Postma. I would bet that you couldn't find a single GM or scout that would say otherwise. It isn't really close. Scheifele would also hold a tonne more trade value.

Postma is a PP specialist in the AHL and I really really really doubt he will ever be more than a 3rd pairing defender.

EDIT

Also worth noting:


Nobody thought Getzlaf was going to be what he is when they drafted him or afyer his last year of junior.

You're missing the point; you cannot compare a center to a d man. It's nonsensical. I mean seriously...?

OF course 29 other GM's would pay more for Scheifele based entirely on where they were taken in the draft. 29 other GM's would EXPECT that he was better!

Z

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01-11-2013, 05:57 PM
  #181
Hank Chinaski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
I wont generalize if people here realistically compare positional players to the proper positions....I mean common already!
So if I'm reading this correctly, you can't compare the value of players that play different positions?


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01-11-2013, 06:09 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
You're missing the point; you cannot compare a center to a d man. It's nonsensical. I mean seriously...?

OF course 29 other GM's would pay more for Scheifele based entirely on where they were taken in the draft. 29 other GM's would EXPECT that he was better!

Z
Assessing relative value across position s isn't that complicated.

Also, GMs scout other team's players. Performance means far more than draft position when it comes to trade value.

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01-11-2013, 06:10 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
So if I'm reading this correctly, you can't compare the value of players that play different positions?

Value is a different word. Compare their value to their position, and to what they bring their team. Comparing a #7 dman to a #2 center by simply saying that one is better than another doesn't really work. It speaks little of what is expected of the player in their respective roles.

Mark Scheifele is a center, drafted 7th overall. It makes no sense to say that he's better than postma, a d man drafted down the wire. It makes sense to compare say, Scheifele to Burmi. Both young, drafted high and centers. That is a tad more logical and worth weighing in conversation. The other is a very pedestrian outlook to what a hockey player is all about. To simply say, "oh Schefie is better than Postma is illogical. Postma is a bottom pairing d man and has the potential to be very good at that. He's doing just fine in his progression.


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01-11-2013, 06:11 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsun260Z View Post
You're missing the point; you cannot compare a center to a d man. It's nonsensical. I mean seriously...?

OF course 29 other GM's would pay more for Scheifele based entirely on where they were taken in the draft. 29 other GM's would EXPECT that he was better!

Z
I guess we'll never know if Randy Jones is better than Sidney Crosby...

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01-11-2013, 06:17 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
Assessing relative value across position s isn't that complicated.

Also, GMs scout other team's players. Performance means far more than draft position when it comes to trade value.
You said the word, relative! Awesome. Relative value to their place in the line up isn't complicated at all. But saying say....that Crosby is better than say...Randy Jones () is not only real easy but of course accurate! But saying Crosby is the best at his "job" and Jones was the best (which he wasn't) at his "job" is a little more intricate and that's how I look at the game.

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01-11-2013, 06:19 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I guess we'll never know if Randy Jones is better than Sidney Crosby...
And obviously Crosby has a greater value...I mean really?...


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 01-11-2013 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Nobody threatened you.
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01-11-2013, 06:27 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I guess we'll never know if Randy Jones is better than Sidney Crosby...
Who's Randy Jones???
I only know one Jones... THE Jones...


Ran_y "where's the 'd'" Jones!!!

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01-11-2013, 07:06 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Who's Randy Jones???
I only know one Jones... THE Jones...


Ran_y "where's the 'd'" Jones!!!


Teammate of _ustin Byfuglien, huh?

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01-11-2013, 09:48 PM
  #189
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If it wasn't mentioned the decision will come by game 5 (the adjusted amount of games to send a Jr back without burning a year for this season). Scheifele will play 4 or 5 games and then go back to Barrie unless he is killing it or we have huge injuries.
For people hypothesizing about lines Wellwood will start with Kane and Oli. He deserves the shot and proved that he can be slid anywhere throughout the season and will be effective.
First through Fourth line Welly will produce in some way and is pound for pound / dollar for dollar completely worth the roster spot.
I would also expect at some time to see Antro / Poni / Welly as a line so that everyone can make Leaf jokes.

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01-11-2013, 11:24 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Zhamnov5GoalGame View Post
I would also expect at some time to see Antro / Poni / Welly as a line so that everyone can make Leaf jokes.
Should make them the first line every time they play the Maple Leafs.

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01-11-2013, 11:31 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by mondo3 View Post
We have an example of what happens when you rush a player into the NHL without maximizing his development time with Burmi. I'd like to see this mistake avoided
What bugs me about people that say this is it's under the assumption that every player develops the same way and at the same pace and that a player's fate is sealed before he's even old enough to have a drink(US).

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01-11-2013, 11:38 PM
  #192
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Interesting thing to keep in mind(might have been mentioned idk), is we're only going to play about half a season and Mark has spent most of the year in Barrie already. It might be wise just to let him stay there as is. If the season was starting on time we might be in a predicament but this could almost be a blessing in disguise in regards to his development.

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01-11-2013, 11:40 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
What bugs me about people that say this is it's under the assumption that every player develops the same way and at the same pace and that a player's fate is sealed before he's even old enough to have a drink(US).
Agreed.

Especially when many players aren't in the league at that point. Imagine if the Jets gave up on Teemu when he was 21.

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01-12-2013, 12:13 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Interesting thing to keep in mind(might have been mentioned idk), is we're only going to play about half a season and Mark has spent most of the year in Barrie already. It might be wise just to let him stay there as is. If the season was starting on time we might be in a predicament but this could almost be a blessing in disguise in regards to his development.
The counter argument to this is that he's had half a season in Barrie already, and he has nothing left to prove there. All the other clubs are starting at the exact same time we are, and you can bet that a number of them will be having their number one draft picks up at the big club. If Scheifele gets up here and can't stick in those 5 games, then he goes back down.

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01-12-2013, 12:16 AM
  #195
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Agreed.

Especially when many players aren't in the league at that point. Imagine if the Jets gave up on Teemu when he was 21.
There's a world of difference between Teemu Selanne and Alex Burmistrov. Teemu played in his native Finland for 2 seasons before joining the Jets, for starters. He also had the single greatest rookie season ever recorded. If Burmistrov had done anything close to that, then we could talk parallels.

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01-12-2013, 12:48 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by DespoticNewt View Post
There's a world of difference between Teemu Selanne and Alex Burmistrov. Teemu played in his native Finland for 2 seasons before joining the Jets, for starters. He also had the single greatest rookie season ever recorded. If Burmistrov had done anything close to that, then we could talk parallels.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Teemu was 22 years old as a rookie. Drafted in 88 and joined the team in 92.

My point was, Teemu wasn't in the NHL when he was 21. Many top shelf NHLers weren't. We don't know what we have in Burmi yet.

I wasn't comparing skill sets.

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01-12-2013, 12:53 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Teemu was 22 years old as a rookie. Drafted in 88 and joined the team in 92.

My point was, Teemu wasn't in the NHL when he was 21. Many top shelf NHLers weren't. We don't know what we have in Burmi yet.

I wasn't comparing skill sets.
Very true. The concern i have is Burmi is learning at the NHL level, and not having tremendous success. He's improving, but his development may be better served outside the NHL - as Teemu's perhaps was.

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01-12-2013, 01:13 AM
  #198
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Very true. The concern i have is Burmi is learning at the NHL level, and not having tremendous success. He's improving, but his development may be better served outside the NHL - as Teemu's perhaps was.
Definitely possible.

Others have come in at 18, killed it and never looked back.
Others have grown slowly.

All we can do is wait and see.

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01-12-2013, 01:30 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Teemu was 22 years old as a rookie. Drafted in 88 and joined the team in 92.

My point was, Teemu wasn't in the NHL when he was 21. Many top shelf NHLers weren't. We don't know what we have in Burmi yet.

I wasn't comparing skill sets.
Teemu was able to develop in a league that didn't have as stiff competition as the NHL, thus his game was able to grow at a more reasonable level. Burmi was rushed, of which there is no doubt. Burmi has shown flashes of brilliance and is much more defensively sound then a lot of forwards out there, so all were waiting for is for him to break out offensively.

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01-12-2013, 07:14 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Interesting thing to keep in mind(might have been mentioned idk), is we're only going to play about half a season and Mark has spent most of the year in Barrie already. It might be wise just to let him stay there as is. If the season was starting on time we might be in a predicament but this could almost be a blessing in disguise in regards to his development.
Duke I am to lazy to type it again but earlier in the thread I mentioned


This is pretty interesting debate because there are merits to all sides of the argument.

I would like to add a few additional pieces of information to digest this morning.

Firstly. For those of us that think Mark might need more time in Barrie because it would be great for him to get quality minutes (PP, PK, 1st line), which I have been firmly planted in, we might need a revisit. I think it is important to remember that due to the lockout Mark has had the unique opportunity of getting the best of both worlds. We were not forced to make the tough call in the fall and we were able to kick the can down the road and therefore Mark has already played 30 games in Barrie (vs. the 47 regular season games last year) where he has dominated night in night out and he has had almost a month with team Canada and put in a very solid WJC where he improved his performance over last year. One has to ask now what is left for Mark to learn in Barrie? Perhaps he could learn how to put a full season together because last year he hit a big wall at this exact point in time (or some would say it was during the WJC) but then really picked it up for the OHL playoffs. Not like we didn't send him back and stunted his growth this year he has had a half year and a WJC and now we have a historical opportunity to do a mid season evaluation of a prospect after they have already benefitted allot from developing in the OHL

Secondly. I heard Ken Hitchock talk twice on the dynamics of coming off this lock out and the challenges that teams will face. It was a great interview but I will cherry pick the part that is relevant to this debate. Ken said that one of the huge challenges will be team chemistry due to the fact that some guys have been playing in Europe and others have been playing shinny and that variance will cause havoc. He also said that it will be about quality minutes not quantity and that for at least a month players you are use to counting on for big minutes will not be able to give you those minutes at a high level and more than ever you will need bottom pairing D and bottom 6 forwards to pull a big load. It got me thinking that the Jets may actually need Mark to compete and make the run for the playoffs.

So let's play this out then. So Mark is going to come to training camp and be available to Barrie at the earliest for their game on January 24th and that would leave 22 OHL games plus playoffs for Mark to work on his game. Now subtract 5 games off the 22 if Winnipeg deems they could use Mark's help with the Jets to get off on the right foot. That would leave Mark about 17 OHL games plus playoffs left.

At this point do we really believe that Mark would develop more playing 17 games plus playoffs in the OHL or play 48 games with the Jets (plus maybe some playoffs)??

Now if Mark isn't ready then this is an easy call Mark can go back to the Colts and finish up strong which would leave the door open to having Mark spend time in the AHL next year if that is needed. However, I think we have to let this play out because unless the situation is too big for him Scheif might actually learn and grow more by joining the parent club now even in a more limited capacity.

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