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USA National U18 Team

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01-05-2013, 10:14 PM
  #1
Canadiankid61
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USA National U18 Team

When I heard Don Cherry complain about how the CHL shouldn't allow non Canadian players into our leagues, I have to disagree. I believe the main reason for USA success is there development program, while our youngsters are riding pine on the third and fourth lines. Anyone agree?

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01-05-2013, 10:37 PM
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CapsWolverinesUSA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiankid61 View Post
When I heard Don Cherry complain about how the CHL shouldn't allow non Canadian players into our leagues, I have to disagree. I believe the main reason for USA success is there development program, while our youngsters are riding pine on the third and fourth lines. Anyone agree?
Fact of the matter is, relatively few American elite players are going to the CHL in their 16 year old year. Almost all of them wait until completion of the USNTDP (or, occasionally, USHL/prep school) before going to the CHL as 18 year olds, 1 year before most show up at WJC. Gibson, JT Miller, Seth Jones, Biggs, Hartman, Murphey, Sieloff...all of them did their most meaningful junior deveopment in the United States. Same was true with Patrick Kane, John Carlson, Jack Campbell, Cam Fowler, etc. from recent US WJC teams.

I think Galchenyuk and Trocheck are the only true "career" CHLers on the USA roster this year.

So, this notion that the CHL is doing all the work of developing American junior level talent is kind of ridiculous. The impact of the CHL is by no means insignificant, but it cannot be meaningfully understood simply by counting heads on the roster of a WJC team. And even then, the roster is stil well over half NCAA-based.

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01-05-2013, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
Fact of the matter is, relatively few American elite players are going to the CHL in their 16 year old year. Almost all of them wait until completion of the USNTDP (or, occasionally, USHL/prep school) before going to the CHL as 18 year olds, 1 year before most show up at WJC. Gibson, JT Miller, Seth Jones, Biggs, Hartman, Murphey, Sieloff...all of them did their most meaningful junior deveopment in the United States. Same was true with Patrick Kane, John Carlson, Jack Campbell, Cam Fowler, etc. from recent US WJC teams.

I think Galchenyuk and Trocheck are the only true "career" CHLers on the USA roster this year.

So, this notion that the CHL is doing all the work of developing American junior level talent is kind of ridiculous. The impact of the CHL is by no means insignificant, but it cannot be meaningfully understood simply by counting heads on the roster of a WJC team. And even then, the roster is stil well over half NCAA-based.
Ummm, the post you quoted specifically said:

Quote:
I believe the main reason for USA success is there development program

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01-06-2013, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiankid61 View Post
When I heard Don Cherry complain about how the CHL shouldn't allow non Canadian players into our leagues, I have to disagree. I believe the main reason for USA success is there development program, while our youngsters are riding pine on the third and fourth lines. Anyone agree?
Every kid who makes Team Canada is a star on their junior team.

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01-06-2013, 12:56 AM
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Xokkeu
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Top ten scorers in the Q? 8 of 10 Canadian

WHL? 9 of 10

OHL? 8 of 10


If the entire CHL made up of 3rd liners?

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01-06-2013, 03:01 AM
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William H Bonney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiankid61 View Post
When I heard Don Cherry complain about how the CHL shouldn't allow non Canadian players into our leagues, I have to disagree. I believe the main reason for USA success is there development program, while our youngsters are riding pine on the third and fourth lines. Anyone agree?
I disagree with everything Don Cherry said. To your point, I'd mostly disagree as well if you're talking about WJC success (not sure if you meant U18 success or WJC success due to the NTDP U18 team). The NTDP certainly helps but it has far less an impact on the U20 tournament than it does at the U18 level. Guys like Pietila and Bardreau were 3rd/4th liners with the NTDP while they were there so it's not as if all our players that are contributing are playing 1st line minutes in the USHL while their Canadian counterparts are not. I do think the NTDP has succeeded in successfully developing those types of role players though and USAH has been successful in targeting those types recently as well for the WJC teams, an aspect that Hockey Canada may somewhat overlook at times.

I think it's really two-fold, in a simplistic way:

1) Canada's run (5 straight golds, 14 straight medals) set unrealistic expectations. It was a great run but Canada also had a lot of breaks for things to go their way in a lot of those tournaments. Not that Canada shouldn't expect to medal/compete for the gold every year but when they don't it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Canadian hockey. I think the last few years are examples of the variance Canadian fans should expect instead of gold every year.

2) On the flip side, I think we're starting to see the more consistent results out of Team USA that we should expect. USAH has finally taken this tournament seriously. It's not a coincidence that in the 4 tournaments since they've added more full time scouting staff for this team and instituted the December pre-tournament camp that USAH has 2 golds and 1 bronze. They were underachieving at this tournament, given their talent, before those changes.

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Last edited by William H Bonney: 01-06-2013 at 04:35 AM.
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01-06-2013, 04:30 AM
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lol @ don cherry. what a lard. how about this. CHL bans imports from league, NHL removes canadian franchises. hows your medal taste? oh, wait. sour.

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01-06-2013, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by anklebender View Post
lol @ don cherry. what a lard. how about this. CHL bans imports from league, NHL removes canadian franchises. hows your medal taste? oh, wait. sour.
First off congrats Team USA
Second, what Cherry said was stupid.
Third, what you said was even worse.

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01-06-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by 2525 View Post
First off congrats Team USA
Second, what Cherry said was stupid.
Third, what you said was even worse.
Well put.

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01-06-2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Top ten scorers in the Q? 8 of 10 Canadian

WHL? 9 of 10

OHL? 8 of 10


If the entire CHL made up of 3rd liners?
We're talking 16 and 17 year olds here. Out of the 25 Canadians you refer to above, all but three are 18 and over.

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01-06-2013, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x94Galchenyuk94x View Post
Every kid who makes Team Canada is a star on their junior team.
You managed to completely miss the point. Nowwhere does he say that the Canada WJC players are playing 3rd & 4th line for their team now, he says that they did so when they first came into the league.

When they get selected for the WJC they are, but in their first (and sometimes second) year in the CHL they often play more marginal roles on their teams. This is when most of the American players get a more significant role for the USNTDP teams then their Canadian peers in the CHL.

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01-06-2013, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I disagree with everything Don Cherry said. To your point, I'd mostly disagree as well if you're talking about WJC success (not sure if you meant U18 success or WJC success due to the NTDP U18 team). The NTDP certainly helps but it has far less an impact on the U20 tournament than it does at the U18 level. Guys like Pietila and Bardreau were 3rd/4th liners with the NTDP while they were there so it's not as if all our players that are contributing are playing 1st line minutes in the USHL while their Canadian counterparts are not. I do think the NTDP has succeeded in successfully developing those types of role players though and USAH has been successful in targeting those types recently as well for the WJC teams, an aspect that Hockey Canada may somewhat overlook at times.

I think it's really two-fold, in a simplistic way:

1) Canada's run (5 straight golds, 14 straight medals) set unrealistic expectations. It was a great run but Canada also had a lot of breaks for things to go their way in a lot of those tournaments. Not that Canada shouldn't expect to medal/compete for the gold every year but when they don't it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Canadian hockey. I think the last few years are examples of the variance Canadian fans should expect instead of gold every year.

2) On the flip side, I think we're starting to see the more consistent results out of Team USA that we should expect. USAH has finally taken this tournament seriously. It's not a coincidence that in the 4 tournaments since they've added more full time scouting staff for this team and instituted the December pre-tournament camp that USAH has 2 golds and 1 bronze. They were underachieving at this tournament, given their talent, before those changes.
I agree with your 2 points. The difference between the 5 peat and the last 4 years of zero golds really isn't that much. During the 5-peat everything was going Canada's way: ot wins, shootouts, last minute goals, clutch plays etc. During the 4 year drought they have been in position to win some but this time coming out on the wrong side of an OT winner, melting down in the third period of a gold medal game to surrender a big lead. Even last year, they lost 1 game in the tournament by 1 goal, this year weren't close. They could have won some of these (not all). The caliber of the teams is not much different (probably a bit of a slip in recent years but not drastic).

Also yes the Americans are trending better and becoming a consistent gold medal threat.


Last edited by Random Bruins Fan: 01-06-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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01-06-2013, 03:45 PM
  #13
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Folks I don't think we always need to put so much stock in what Don Cherry says. Remember some of what he says is for effect only.

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01-06-2013, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko604 View Post
We're talking 16 and 17 year olds here. Out of the 25 Canadians you refer to above, all but three are 18 and over.
If you want younger kids to improve then they need to be challenged against better players. The best US players do not stay in the USHL until they are 20 years old. The US NDTP team usually struggles a bit against USHL teams because the majority of the players are older and stronger. The NDTP players don't score a lot, and their goalies get pounded. 16-17 year olds rarely lead the league in scoring. The ones who do quickly join the NCAA at 18 to gain another jump in competition.


If the CHL were being dominated consistently by 16-17 year olds on the scoresheet, I'd advise the league to do a review of itself because it would not be challenging players to get better.

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01-06-2013, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by canuck2010 View Post
Folks I don't think we always need to put so much stock in what Don Cherry says. Remember some of what he says is for effect only.
I don't even think its that. He's just an older guy from another generation.

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01-06-2013, 06:52 PM
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The real development of a hockey player starts before they ever reach the junior age bracket. Most players who enter the CHL or the NTDP start out as high end players before they ever step on the ice for either program. It's a combination of hard work, working smart and inate talent during formative years that puts a player in the position to become an elite junior and potential pro player. Cherry would be better off thinking rather than reacting.

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