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Trade Rumors and Proposals: Part XXXI

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01-10-2013, 10:42 PM
  #501
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Given what exactly?


I'd argue that statement applies to the potential of a Karlsson/Subban pairing as well.

Also, it helps to note that both Karlsson and Subban play the right side. And as I stated play a dazzling style of game, putting them on the same line requires one to tone it down, why would you want to tell either player to not play to their strengths?
Subban (and Karlsson for that matter) are better defensively than what you give them credit for.

Karlsson isn't really a risky player. I don't really know what you mean by ''tone it down''. Like not take as many offensive chances?


Anyway, the skill level would be ridiculous and the ice would be tilted towards the offensive zone.

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01-10-2013, 10:44 PM
  #502
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Karlsson - Subban would be a top 5 pairing.

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01-10-2013, 10:46 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Subban (and Karlsson for that matter) are better defensively than what you give them credit for.

Karlsson isn't really a risky player. I don't really know what you mean by ''tone it down''. Like not take as many offensive chances?


Anyway, the skill level would be ridiculous and the ice would be tilted towards the offensive zone.
Define risky.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
.. this thread is about the Sens acquiring Subban.

So yes, in this hypothetical situation the OP is referring to, yes they would be.
Than there was no need for you to reference other defemsove pairings than if this thread was about Subban/Karlsson...

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01-10-2013, 10:47 PM
  #504
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I respectfully suggest you need to watch the B-Sens games more closely.

Weircoich has been very good defensively this season, from my observations probably as good as any D-man on the team.
From what I have seen so far Gryba has been much better defensively then the rest of the d men. Although I will try and watch Wiericoh more attentively in subsequent games at the AHL or NHL level. I've seen him make a handful of gaffs defensively but it is easy to overlook all the good plays a player is making if you aren't paying close enough attention to their play.

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01-10-2013, 10:49 PM
  #505
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Not sure where to put this, but just heard that Lehner will try to become an RFA this summer on CBA technicality, forcing the Sens hand a little bit.

The 6th Sens will have a more extensive take on the blog tomorrow hopefully with Lehner quotes.
Where are you hearing this from?

Regardless from what I have seen in Bingo, he should be our number 1 goalie. I think that he should play the remainder of the season in Bingo and get a few callups and them be the number 1 guy next season. Then at the trade deadline this season the sens should move either anderson or Bishop.

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01-10-2013, 10:50 PM
  #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Karlsson - Subban would be a top 5 pairing.
I challenge you to name 4 better ones

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Originally Posted by 11Alfredsson View Post
Define risky.



Than there was no need for you to reference other defemsove pairings than if this thread was about Subban/Karlsson...
Risky: Jumping up into the play/leaving his position to play offense.


... you said the OP was smoking something good when he said Subban-Karlsson would be the best. Well, I challenged you to name a better one, and so far you haven't. Surprise me, please.

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01-10-2013, 10:51 PM
  #507
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I challenge you to name 4 better ones
Not sure if there is.

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01-10-2013, 10:51 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Subban (and Karlsson for that matter) are better defensively than what you give them credit for.

Karlsson isn't really a risky player. I don't really know what you mean by ''tone it down''. Like not take as many offensive chances?


Anyway, the skill level would be ridiculous and the ice would be tilted towards the offensive zone.
I am not discrediting either of their defensive games.

If you have two defensman who like to jump up in the play you have the potential to leave open huge counterattacks, should a mistake be made. There were periods last season where that happened and it resulted in goals, or quality scoring chances, this was with a less offensively minded partner in Kuba. Add to this the fact the Subban does what it takes to be in the spotlight, and you have a recipe for disaster.


Subban wants to be the guy; right now, and hopefully in the future, Karlsson is the guy. That doesn't seem to be the best idea for a pairing.

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01-10-2013, 10:52 PM
  #509
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Ceci will be in the AHL next year. He is already in his 19 year old season, while Cowen had his 18 and 19 year old seasons in the CHL after being drafted. We don't have to worry about the 9 game cut-off for Ceci next year like we did Cowen.
I didn't even think to look at their birthdays. I just went off when drafted and seasons that followed. My bad.

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01-10-2013, 10:56 PM
  #510
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I didn't even think to look at their birthdays. I just went off when drafted and seasons that followed. My bad.
Ya I know what you mean, IMO its should go by draft year rather then an arbitrary cutoff date in September.

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01-10-2013, 10:56 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I challenge you to name 4 better ones



Risky: Jumping up into the play/leaving his position to play offense.


... you said the OP was smoking something good when he said Subban-Karlsson would be the best. Well, I challenged you to name a better one, and so far you haven't. Surprise me, please.
Many very good pairings have been named. The problem here is that you have already decided that it would be the best pairing, and as a result, no answer will change your mind.

You are asking us to find a pairing to compare to a hypothetical pairing that has never happened. A better judgement would be for you to find a past pairing that the hypothetical would compare to, and then maybe we could come up with a pairing that would challenge your mentally formed image of perfection.

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01-10-2013, 10:56 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Not sure if there is.
well there you go

Quote:
Originally Posted by This View Post
I am not discrediting either of their defensive games.

If you have two defensman who like to jump up in the play you have the potential to leave open huge counterattacks, should a mistake be made. There were periods last season where that happened and it resulted in goals, or quality scoring chances, this was with a less offensively minded partner in Kuba. Add to this the fact the Subban does what it takes to be in the spotlight, and you have a recipe for disaster.


Subban wants to be the guy; right now, and hopefully in the future, Karlsson is the guy. That doesn't seem to be the best idea for a pairing.
I think they are both smart enough to not jump into the play at the same time.

Karlsson is not super risky. And neither is Subban. They play their positions for the most part.


Their dazzling styles would not clash imo. They would just overpower people so to speak.

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01-10-2013, 10:57 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
oh yeah forgot about them
Face - Palm
they are great you're right
Theres at least 5 defenceman and maybe 10 better than Subban. Theres no way you can possibly say that these two would be the best defensive pairing.

Cue the 'list them please' but we're not allowed mentioning them because they're not on team our team, according to you.

You over exaggerate almost everything you say on here and it doesn't make sense.

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01-10-2013, 11:00 PM
  #514
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Many very good pairings have been named. The problem here is that you have already decided that it would be the best pairing, and as a result, no answer will change your mind.

You are asking us to find a pairing to compare to a hypothetical pairing that has never happened. A better judgement would be for you to find a past pairing that the hypothetical would compare to, and then maybe we could come up with a pairing that would challenge your mentally formed image of perfection.
The only one that comes close is McD - Girardi.

Ignore that their names are Karlsson and Subban.


#1 D - Norris

#1 D - # 2 D (McD - Girardi)

#2 D - #3 D (Timonen - Coburn)

#2 D - #2 D (Vlasic - Burns)


Objectively, who is better?

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01-10-2013, 11:02 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
well there you go



I think they are both smart enough to not jump into the play at the same time.

Karlsson is not super risky. And neither is Subban. They play their positions for the most part.


Their dazzling styles would not clash imo. They would just overpower people so to speak.
I disagree, I think they would be much better split up, if they were on the same team. It would offer more to the team than loading up all the skill on one line.

I also believe that they would clash. So I'll leave it at that, as there is no where else to go with this.

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01-10-2013, 11:02 PM
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I challenge you to name 4 better ones



Risky: Jumping up into the play/leaving his position to play offense.


... you said the OP was smoking something good when he said Subban-Karlsson would be the best. Well, I challenged you to name a better one, and so far you haven't. Surprise me, please.
Are you sure Karlsson is not risky (by your definition) as you say? Just because he usually is able to get back into position due to his speed doesn't mean he's not as risky as you say.

And Dan Girardi/Ryan McDonagh

EDIT: there was a poster who posted a bunch of pairings in the pages prior as well

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01-10-2013, 11:02 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
The only one that comes close is McD - Girardi.

Ignore that their names are Karlsson and Subban.


#1 D - Norris

#1 D - # 2 D (McD - Girardi)

#2 D - #3 D (Timonen - Coburn)

#2 D - #2 D (Vlasic - Burns)


Objectively, who is better?
But it isn't objective, you have just assigned the players arbitrary levels that suit your argument.

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01-10-2013, 11:03 PM
  #518
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Theres at least 5 defenceman and maybe 10 better than Subban. Theres no way you can possibly say that these two would be the best defensive pairing.

Cue the 'list them please' but we're not allowed mentioning them because they're not on team our team, according to you.

You over exaggerate almost everything you say on here and it doesn't make sense.
So you're saying Subban is ~top 10?

These d-men would need to be on the same team.

Norris + top 10 D = best pair in the league. No other single team has 2 d-men that good.

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01-10-2013, 11:06 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
The only one that comes close is McD - Girardi.

Ignore that their names are Karlsson and Subban.


#1 D - Norris

#1 D - # 2 D (McD - Girardi)

#2 D - #3 D (Timonen - Coburn)

#2 D - #2 D (Vlasic - Burns)


Objectively, who is better?
This doesn't answer my question.

I would also add that it has been proven in the past that loading up skill doesn't mean you are going to be the best, look at the summit series. A pure skill based team losses to a more well rounded team.

Look at our cup run in 07, we loaded up skill guys and got creamed by a more well rounded team.

It's not as simple as saying "oh they are the most skilled, they will destroy the competition" because that relies on the assumption that skill is unbeatable.

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01-10-2013, 11:07 PM
  #520
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If we are allowed to do hypothetical,

Edler/Karlsson

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01-10-2013, 11:08 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
So you're saying Subban is ~top 10?

These d-men would need to be on the same team.

Norris + top 10 D = best pair in the league. No other single team has 2 d-men that good.
No, I said theres maybe 10 defenceman better than Subban, possibly 15, 20 is a stretch and so on.

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01-10-2013, 11:11 PM
  #522
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I disagree, I think they would be much better split up, if they were on the same team. It would offer more to the team than loading up all the skill on one line.

I also believe that they would clash. So I'll leave it at that, as there is no where else to go with this.
Yeah the team could be better if they split up... because the Sens have Phillips and Cowen and what not.

but, if they were together, they could still be the best pairing in the league.

They're not Mike Greens. They're two-way d-men. They don't run wild out there, not even close. Therefore they wouldn't clash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Alfredsson View Post
Are you sure Karlsson is not risky (by your definition) as you say? Just because he usually is able to get back into position due to his speed doesn't mean he's not as risky as you say.

And Dan Girardi/Ryan McDonagh

EDIT: there was a poster who posted a bunch of pairings in the pages prior as well
A lot of Karlsson's offense comes from the blueline. His defensive lapses come from bad pivots, getting beat wide or being outmuscled.

They don't come from being nonchalant and only thinking Offense.

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But it isn't objective, you have just assigned the players arbitrary levels that suit your argument.
Ok. But I don't want people to judge based on their names and biases towards each player.

Individually the best d-men from that list are

Karlsson
McD
Subban
the rest

pretty clear who the best pairing is imo

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01-10-2013, 11:12 PM
  #523
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No, I said theres maybe 10 defenceman better than Subban, possibly 15, 20 is a stretch and so on.
You're doing this wrong, he is using the Norris as a measurement of Karlssons skill, so lets take a look at Norris voting to rate Subban.


Subban isn't top 20.

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01-10-2013, 11:13 PM
  #524
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I'd love to get Brian Campbell out of Florida. Dude was my fav player in Chicago and would instantly make our defence better. What are the chances Florida trades him? It seems to me it will only happen if Luongo is coming in which I don't think is likely either.

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01-10-2013, 11:17 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Yeah the team could be better if they split up... because the Sens have Phillips and Cowen and what not.

but, if they were together, they could still be the best pairing in the league.

They're not Mike Greens. They're two-way d-men. They don't run wild out there, not even close. Therefore they wouldn't clash.

The last thing I will say on this is:

You are asking us to be objective in rating the skill of two players, who have never played a shift together, being paired with one another.

I don't believe it's possible to objectively rate something of this nature on pure hypothesis.

Edit to respond:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
You want me to find a comparable pairing in terms of playing style, then evaluate how they performed, then compare that to McD-Gir?

Well sorry, I think that's next to impossible.
That's my point.

That is exactly what you are asking us to do with this hypothetical pairing.


Last edited by This: 01-10-2013 at 11:22 PM.
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